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Dual Citizen, NS Defferment, Renounciation, Extradition

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toneemontana
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Dual Citizen, NS Defferment, Renounciation, Extradition

Postby toneemontana » Wed, 04 Jan 2012 1:45 pm

Situation: I am an American, Ex-Wife is Singaporean with U.S. PR. Son born in Singapore and is currently 15 years old. Soon after son's birth we filed for naturalization for American Citizenship at U.S. Embassy in Singapore, of which he was granted. We left Singapore when our son was two years old and none of us have returned to Singapore since.
My son was never issued a Singapore Passport or an NRIC.
After my son turned Thirteen I e-mailed the CMPB and here is their response:

NATIONAL SERVICE OBLIGATIONS

1. Please refer to your email dated 31 Dec 11 regarding your son’s National Service (NS) obligations.

2. All male Singaporeans or Permanent Residents (PR) are required to fulfil their NS obligations under the Enlistment Act. As a Singapore citizen, your son is required to apply for exit permit (EP) at the age of 13 years old and to register for NS upon reaching the age of 16½ years old. He is also required for NS enlistment at the earliest opportunity after reaching the age of 18 years, unless he is granted deferment from NS for his overseas studies. We are enclosing the EP leaflet for your retention.

3. Under the Singapore Constitution, Singapore citizens can only renounce their Singapore citizenship (SC) after reaching the age of 21 years. Those below 21 years can apply for NS deferment till 21 years pending renunciation of their Singapore citizenship.

4. You have indicated that your son intends to renounce his SC at his age of 21 without serving his full-time NS. We are enclosing the application forms for your completion. We will assess his eligibility for NS deferment till his age of 21, pending renunciation of his SC when we have received his application.

5. Thank you and regards.

After reading other related post on this site, seems to be some discrepancy on how the CMPB may handle my son's case. As we/he left Singapore when he was two years old, never issued a Singapore passport or NRIC , and never enjoyed the socio-economic benefits of Singapore, I have hopes that he may be allowed an Exit Permit without having to post a bond. I cannot afford the bond and if there are no concessions made by CMPB, I will have no choice but to advise my son to never step foot in Singapore. From what I have read he cannot be extradited from U.S. to Singapore.

Has anyone else experienced a similar situation ? What was your outcome ?

Would there be an issue if he visited Malaysia and had his Singaporean relatives visit him there ?

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Re: Dual Citizen, NS Defferment, Renounciation, Extradition

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 04 Jan 2012 3:27 pm

toneemontana wrote:Situation: I am an American, Ex-Wife is Singaporean with U.S. PR. Son born in Singapore and is currently 15 years old. Soon after son's birth we filed for naturalization for American Citizenship at U.S. Embassy in Singapore, of which he was granted. We left Singapore when our son was two years old and none of us have returned to Singapore since.

My son was never issued a Singapore Passport or an NRIC.
After my son turned Thirteen I e-mailed the CMPB and here is their response:

NATIONAL SERVICE OBLIGATIONS

1. Please refer to your email dated 31 Dec 11 regarding your son’s National Service (NS) obligations.

2. All male Singaporeans or Permanent Residents (PR) are required to fulfil their NS obligations under the Enlistment Act. As a Singapore citizen, your son is required to apply for exit permit (EP) at the age of 13 years old and to register for NS upon reaching the age of 16½ years old. He is also required for NS enlistment at the earliest opportunity after reaching the age of 18 years, unless he is granted deferment from NS for his overseas studies. We are enclosing the EP leaflet for your retention.

3. Under the Singapore Constitution, Singapore citizens can only renounce their Singapore citizenship (SC) after reaching the age of 21 years. Those below 21 years can apply for NS deferment till 21 years pending renunciation of their Singapore citizenship.

4. You have indicated that your son intends to renounce his SC at his age of 21 without serving his full-time NS. We are enclosing the application forms for your completion. We will assess his eligibility for NS deferment till his age of 21, pending renunciation of his SC when we have received his application.

5. Thank you and regards.

After reading other related post on this site, seems to be some discrepancy on how the CMPB may handle my son's case. As we/he left Singapore when he was two years old, never issued a Singapore passport or NRIC , and never enjoyed the socio-economic benefits of Singapore, I have hopes that he may be allowed an Exit Permit without having to post a bond. I cannot afford the bond and if there are no concessions made by CMPB, I will have no choice but to advise my son to never step foot in Singapore. From what I have read he cannot be extradited from U.S. to Singapore.

If you didn't apply for an exit permit using the proper protocols, when he was 13, you have little hope of him escaping unscathed from this mess. Additionally, all you have mention is a very real possibility. He cannot be extradited from the US nor can he be picked up in Malaysia. Most (and there are a lot of them) do just what you mentioned. Have the rellies visit him in JB cause if he steps foot in Singapore he will be picked up as a deserter/defaulter.


Has anyone else experienced a similar situation ? What was your outcome ?

Would there be an issue if he visited Malaysia and had his Singaporean relatives visit him there ?

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Postby toneemontana » Wed, 04 Jan 2012 4:31 pm

SMS.. Thank you for your reply. As of now I haven't submitted info on the NS Portal for an Exit Permit. Not sure I should even bother, as it seems very few people get concessions from N.S. duty. I wouldn't discouraged my son from military service, but I feel it needs to be his choice to enter or not, and of which country to serve.
Other than my ex-in-laws, who I still care for and especially would like my children to have the opportunity to spend time with, I do not for for-see my son or daughter working or living in Singapore.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 04 Jan 2012 5:54 pm

toneemontana wrote:SMS.. Thank you for your reply. As of now I haven't submitted info on the NS Portal for an Exit Permit. Not sure I should even bother, as it seems very few people get concessions from N.S. duty. I wouldn't discouraged my son from military service, but I feel it needs to be his choice to enter or not, and of which country to serve.

If you had followed protocols early on when you were supposed to, had he decided to do NS it wouldn't cause any problems at all. You just can't do the the other way around. There is where you went wrong. I'm afraid, like a number who have posted on this board over the past 7 years, it will one day bite him in the butt. We've had them want to come back due to corporate transfers and have to tell their employers they can't take the promotion or huge pay increase because they broke the law in Singapore. (and they didn't do it, but the parents did it to them.) Don't say it can't or won't happen. None of us know what lies behind door number 1, 2 or 3. We buys our ticket and takes our chances. It's sucks when you grab the winning ticket and find out you can't collect because your parents screwed it up. I hope you don't someday find yourself in a similar position. In fact, the gahmen here have a very, very long memory.

Other than my ex-in-laws, who I still care for and especially would like my children to have the opportunity to spend time with, I do not for for-see my son or daughter working or living in Singapore.

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Postby joshuaday11 » Wed, 04 Jan 2012 6:04 pm

It has been awhile I posted anything here. My POV is simple. You have to be systematic and very organize when dealing with Singapore Agencies. As a family man that gone thru a rough time with them while all the time thinking I was on the right side of the law, you have to tread carefully this path.
I am no expert but if you could get MS to point you to the right direction will be another option

JD

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Postby toneemontana » Wed, 04 Jan 2012 9:02 pm

If you had followed protocols early on when you were supposed to, had he decided to do NS it wouldn't cause any problems at all. You just can't do the the other way around. There is where you went wrong. I'm afraid, like a number who have posted on this board over the past 7 years, it will one day bite him in the butt. We've had them want to come back due to corporate transfers and have to tell their employers they can't take the promotion or huge pay increase because they broke the law in Singapore. (and they didn't do it, but the parents did it to them.) Don't say it can't or won't happen. None of us know what lies behind door number 1, 2 or 3. We buys our ticket and takes our chances. It's sucks when you grab the winning ticket and find out you can't collect because your parents screwed it up. I hope you don't someday find yourself in a similar position. In fact, the gahmen here have a very, very long memory.

Yes, my ex and I can only blame ourselves, certainly not my son's fault he was born in Singapore. If it turns out my son can't visit that insignificant spec that's full of greedy, narrow minded drones (except for relatives), I don't think he's missing out on much. If he wants to live in a real city, he has many to choose from in the US and worldwide. I don't regret that my son has spent the majority of his life here in the U.S., if he were to grow up in Singapore chances are he would be a book smart, common senseless drone who's government does his thinking for him. So, the best part is he can still opt do his N.S. and then simply leave Singapore or take advantage of it in any way he sees fit. The good thing is he has an option Singaporeans don't.

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Postby mimo » Wed, 04 Jan 2012 9:17 pm

toneemontana wrote:SMS.. Thank you for your reply. As of now I haven't submitted info on the NS Portal for an Exit Permit. Not sure I should even bother, as it seems very few people get concessions from N.S. duty. I wouldn't discouraged my son from military service, but I feel it needs to be his choice to enter or not, and of which country to serve.
Other than my ex-in-laws, who I still care for and especially would like my children to have the opportunity to spend time with, I do not for for-see my son or daughter working or living in Singapore.


You did the right thing when you send email to mindef when your son is 13 but screw it up by not applying for the EP and deferment. It don't cost you to apply for the EP online at the ns portal and i think in your case, you do not need to post bond also as you and your son has been living abroad all along with your son intention to renounce at 21yrs. He will get to decide then if he wants his Singapore citizenship or renounce it. You did not give him that choice which you mentioned you like him to have.
I think you should communicate with Mindef again and explain why you did not apply for his EP then at 13yrs and you are prepare to accept the concequences ( which in most case is a fine) and apply for his EP,deferment and register for ns at 16.5yrs. I do think that your son still stand a chance for deferment pending renunciation. In my case, i did not apply EP at 13 for my son due to a law change( it use to be at 16 then) but they still says that i am at fault. I have to pay a fine before they will process the application for deferment pending renunciation and even then , you don't know if its going to be approved or not. Eventually i have got approval for my son deferment till 21yrs pending renunciation. I hope that you do all you can for your son and not close any doors for him.

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Postby toneemontana » Wed, 04 Jan 2012 9:30 pm

Thanks for your reply Mimo. I haven't applied for EP and deferment yet, I still can, just a bit discouraged. Part of me is hesitant as I don't want to release any of his particulars to CMPB. If, I receive more positive replies like yours I will have more incentive to follow through.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 04 Jan 2012 11:46 pm

That sounds like an excuse to me. The longer you wait, the less likely CMPB will be to cooperate. But we know how it is, it's not your life you are shafting is it. You just don't like being put in the hot seat for something you did to your son that could be detrimental to the rest of his life.

What happens when he meets a Singaporean girl in the US and she wants him to return to Singapore with her? Sorry, I can't cause my father made me a fugitive from Singapore.

It's time you start thinking about him.

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Postby toneemontana » Thu, 05 Jan 2012 12:21 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:That sounds like an excuse to me. The longer you wait, the less likely CMPB will be to cooperate. But we know how it is, it's not your life you are shafting is it. You just don't like being put in the hot seat for something you did to your son that could be detrimental to the rest of his life.

What happens when he meets a Singaporean girl in the US and she wants him to return to Singapore with her? Sorry, I can't cause my father made me a fugitive from Singapore.

It's time you start thinking about him.


Your right I am making excuses, but do you see his Singaporean mother in here taking the brunt with me ? If this doesn't pan out, my son will be fine either way.Two years in NS is not as important as two years in college directly after high school. Other than good food SG doesn't offer much. He'll get by in the U.S. or elsewhere. I have raised him from diapers until now, and I will continue to love and help him for the rest of my life. Do you think two years in NS or possibly being a deserter from a country he doesn't even know compares with that ?
Mind your BS finger pointing... who are you to judge.

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Postby toneemontana » Thu, 05 Jan 2012 1:22 pm

"I think you should communicate with Mindef again and explain why you did not apply for his EP then at 13yrs and you are prepare to accept the concequences ( which in most case is a fine) and apply for his EP,deferment and register for ns at 16.5yrs. I do think that your son still stand a chance for deferment pending renunciation. In my case, i did not apply EP at 13 for my son due to a law change( it use to be at 16 then) but they still says that i am at fault. I have to pay a fine before they will process the application for deferment pending renunciation and even then , you don't know if its going to be approved or not. Eventually i have got approval for my son deferment till 21yrs pending renunciation. I hope that you do all you can for your son and not close any doors for him."

How much did the fine cost ?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 05 Jan 2012 1:47 pm

Frankly, I believe a young man will do much better in University with a 2 year break BEFORE starting University. Military service will make a young man learn a lot about himself and just what he is capable of.

The obvious question I have to ask is "have you, yourself, done any military service?" Of course, if you haven't, then there is no way that you could know these things. As ex-military, I believe, with a son currently in the military, I am well equipped to judge. Whether your wife is with you or not is, frankly, immaterial. Certain obligations were inherited with citizenship and every parent has the obligation to understand these things and to not shirk their duties as parents as far as possible. With the world having shrunk dramatically since I was in VN in the 60's, today, New York is but one day away from Singapore. You have no idea what the future holds for your son. It would be a shame to burn your child's bridges out of willful stubbornness, don't you think? The fact that YOU spent 99% of your life in the US, doesn't mean he will want to. My father spent all of his working life in the US. I've spend half of mine overseas. He didn't know and neither did I until I was in my mid 30's.

Take offense if you want to. It's the normal reaction when faced with the bald truth. :-|

Oh yeah. The fine. From 3 to 10K from what I understand. AND the child will still have to do NS. It's impossible to buy his release from NS if that's what you are thinking.

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Postby toneemontana » Thu, 05 Jan 2012 2:17 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Frankly, I believe a young man will do much better in University with a 2 year break BEFORE starting University. Military service will make a young man learn a lot about himself and just what he is capable of.

The obvious question I have to ask is "have you, yourself, done any military service?" Of course, if you haven't, then there is no way that you could know these things. As ex-military, I believe, with a son currently in the military, I am well equipped to judge. Whether your wife is with you or not is, frankly, immaterial. Certain obligations were inherited with citizenship and every parent has the obligation to understand these things and to not shirk their duties as parents as far as possible. With the world having shrunk dramatically since I was in VN in the 60's, today, New York is but one day away from Singapore. You have no idea what the future holds for your son. It would be a shame to burn your child's bridges out of willful stubbornness, don't you think? The fact that YOU spent 99% of your life in the US, doesn't mean he will want to. My father spent all of his working life in the US. I've spend half of mine overseas. He didn't know and neither did I until I was in my mid 30's.

Take offense if you want to. It's the normal reaction when faced with the bald truth. :-|

Oh yeah. The fine. From 3 to 10K from what I understand. AND the child will still have to do NS. It's impossible to buy his release from NS if that's what you are thinking.


As quoted from Mimo:

" Eventually i have got approval for my son deferment till 21yrs pending renunciation"

SMS you are helpful, but also a back-handed sort who probably lives your life just to post insults on this site. If my son never steps foot in Singapore again, for him like billions of other people worldwide that will never visit Singapore, it's not going to be the end of his World.
You want to hear me say it again... YES IT IS MY FAULT... and now it's over and time to move on. If you are perfect, than I am glad to have been blessed by your replies Jesus. Let's just say for argument sake your not, so don't judge me and I won't judge you. Your advice may be helpful, your opinions are not.

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Postby zzm9980 » Thu, 05 Jan 2012 5:10 pm

toneemontana wrote: If my son never steps foot in Singapore again, for him like billions of other people worldwide that will never visit Singapore, it's not going to be the end of his World.


It really depends what your career expectations are for your son. Billions of people world-wide sleep on dirt floors and survive on less than a dollar a day.

Despite some of its citizens best attempts to convince anyone who stays for more than a few days otherwise, Singapore isn't exactly some small third-world island backwater. You're destroying more career paths for your son than you can even consider right now. Do you know how many MNCs/industries have major operations here? While he may never want to live here, quite a few positions may require him to travel here. And more-so in the future.

What if your son has wander-lust and wants to explore South East Asia since I don't know, he was born there? It's quite a hamper not being able to step foot here.

And again, you have *no* idea what the future holds. Maybe Singapore signs treaties with neighbors or other countries to mutually catch/extradite NS dodgers. Your son can now find himself locked out of other places too.

Two years ago I would have said you were nuts if you told me I'd be living and working in Singapore today. Just keep an open mind.


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