Renounced PR, re-enter with EP

[NeedAdvice2012]

Hi there - I wanted to ask some questions on behalf of my husband:

a) He grew up largely in Singapore and was a second generation PR
b) His parents were first generation PR when he got his 2nd generation PR and are still PRs (have not yet opted for citizenship but could choose to do so)
c) Me, his wife, has never lived in Singapore and has no ties to the country.

We are looking to relocate and he has choices of job offers in Singapore and another country, both of which are appealing. He likes the job in Singapore a lot though and loves the place having grown up there. He had to renounce his PR pre-NS at the age of around 18 for extenuating personal circumstances and went overseas to study. This was in 2001.

Big question - I would love to move to Singapore. He also would love to move back. The Singapore company was willing to apply for his EP to see if it gets approved (due to the obvious discussions on this board that say it's more difficult since he renounced PR prior to NS). The company applied and he got the EP which we were very pleasantly surprised. He is highly skilled in his field of work and I believe the company put up a very good case. He is extremely keen to join the company in Singapore. He also has a good choice of job in another country which he is happy taking as well.

Question - if we move to Singapore under his EP (I can also potentially move with my company and get an independent EP I think) - will this only be temporary? Can he get a PR again? Have there been cases? Or will it always be temporary? (i.e. on step-to-step renewing the EP). Is there a limit to the amount of times an EP can be rejected?

We also want to move to Singapore but it is important to consider if we will be able to settle again in Singapore and stay for a prolong period. It's important for us to move to a place where we can settle and not have to potentially pack up and move again immediately if he can never apply for a PR and just keep renewing EPs (again, is there a limit?).

Firstly we are very thankful the EP has been approved which was the first step. Now should we make the move to Singapore without fear of having to pack up and move everytime the EP comes up for renewal or if he can never apply for PR?

One other thing - what about inheritance? If he can never be a PR/citizen - does it affect being able to claim inheritance (since parents's assets are mostly in Singapore?)

Thanks and a prompt response would be very helpful!

[singaporeflyer]

Can he get a PR again? Have there been cases? Or will it always be temporary? (i.e. on step-to-step renewing the EP). Is there a limit to the amount of times an EP can be rejected?

Just my few cents

There were few cases before where in the person has to pay back his CPF amount + interest to get PR again.

But in the recent days the chances are very very slim to regain PR if the person has given it up once.

That too if NS has been skipped, then the chance is close to zero. If he had completed his NS and then moved, he may have a chance to regain his PR.

[sundaymorningstaple]

He'll be allowed to work on his EP but that's it. As an NS defaulter, he's signed his PR death warrant already.

[JR8]

If he's 28 and physically in SG, wouldn't that make him still liable to do NS given he is a defaulter?

Or are there grounds on which an overhanging liability gets erased?

[NeedAdvice2012]

Just one clarification here - he is not an NS 'defaulter' since he legally renounced his PR status. Does that make any difference for re-obtaining his PR? Are there many circumstances where the government sees him as suitable enough to issue an EP but not suitable to re-obtain a PR? Is it hard for a person with his background to normally even get an EP? Also is there a limit to how long we can keep re-applying for EPs? (like in the U.S. you can only get an H-1B for 6 years)

[singaporeflyer]

Just one clarification here - he is not an NS 'defaulter' since he legally renounced his PR status. Does that make any difference for re-obtaining his PR? Are there many circumstances where the government sees him as suitable enough to issue an EP but not suitable to re-obtain a PR? Is it hard for a person with his background to normally even get an EP? Also is there a limit to how long we can keep re-applying for EPs? (like in the U.S. you can only get an H-1B for 6 years)

when a second generation PR takes up PR it is with the clear understanding that he is going to serve NS.

Even if he legally renounces his PR before serving NS, it is considered as a violation of what he has agreed earlier.

The below is from ICA Website

"NS-liable PRs are expected to serve NS. Renouncing or losing one's PR status without serving or completing full-time NS would have an adverse impact on any immediate or future applications to work or study in Singapore, or for Singapore citizenship or PR status."


Are there many circumstances where the government sees him as suitable enough to issue an EP but not suitable to re-obtain a PR

Yes. He is lucky to secure an EP this time.

You can apply EP as many times using an employer who is willing to hire the Employee, but still the decision to grant EP is based on MOM and not the employer.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Just one clarification here - he is not an NS 'defaulter' since he legally renounced his PR status. Does that make any difference for re-obtaining his PR? Are there many circumstances where the government sees him as suitable enough to issue an EP but not suitable to re-obtain a PR? Is it hard for a person with his background to normally even get an EP? Also is there a limit to how long we can keep re-applying for EPs? (like in the U.S. you can only get an H-1B for 6 years)

He cannot legally renounce unless proper protocols have been filed. The OP mentions he "renounced" at 18. He would have had to indicate prior to his 11 birthday that he would be renouncing. Also, I fail to see what extenuating circumstances, considering his parents are PR already and continue to be, he could have possibly had that would cause the government to allow him to renounce considering he should have already registered with NS at the age of 16.5 years. Had he followed proper protocols then his wife would probably not have to write the initial post. Until he clarifies that his renunciation was done according to the numbers, he would be considered a defaulter. I did not say he was a deserter, that is a different ballgame altogether.

As far as getting an EP is concerned, this is at the whim of the government. They can grant EP for periods of 3 months up to 5 years at a time (although I've never heard of anybody getting a 5 year one). the majority are either 1 or 2 years normally. There is no duration for EP's. In fact, one of our regulars here was on an EP for 16 years before he pulled the plug.

The OP's husband will probably never be allowed to become a PR, due primarily because he defaulted on his NS duties.

[SingaporeDon]

He cannot legally renounce unless proper protocols have been filed. The OP mentions he "renounced" at 18. He would have had to indicate prior to his 11 birthday that he would be renouncing. .

SMS, if a second generation PR who got his PR at age 2 but gave it up at age 7, but stayed on Singapore on a student visa until 18 (with one year gap in the Singapore student visa when he spent a year (when he was 8)in home country), is he supposed to serve NS, and if so how does he do NS? Would be be treated as an NS defaulter second generation PR, and so ineligible for student visa or EP later on in his life?

Thanks. I see that you are a very senior member here, and are quite knowledgeable about these things. Thanks for all your help and advice

[sundaymorningstaple]

If he renounced before he started Secondary school or received a blue NRIC, then he should be in the clear (provided documentary evidence of said renouncement exists. So from an NS perspective he's home free......


HOWEVER, the gahmen here are not stupid. If he gave up his PR AND remained here all those years on a student visa, it will be obvious that the ruse was to avoid NS all along. While they can't hang him out to dry for an NS violation, they can very well reject his EP applications AND possible PR applications in the future. The gahmen have a very long memory.

[SingaporeDon]

If he renounced before he started Secondary school or received a blue NRIC, then he should be in the clear (provided documentary evidence of said renouncement exists. So from an NS perspective he's home free......


HOWEVER, the gahmen here are not stupid. If he gave up his PR AND remained here all those years on a student visa, it will be obvious that the ruse was to avoid NS all along. While they can't hang him out to dry for an NS violation, they can very well reject his EP applications AND possible PR applications in the future. The gahmen have a very long memory.

Thanks SMS for the quick response
In fact the first Student Pass was for just over a year, and then he went back to US with his mother and sister and went to school there for a year. After a year, he came back to SIN with mother and sister and has been in SIN since then on Student Pass

You say "they can very well reject his EP application" and I understand that. But in the case of the OP's husband, he had given up PR at 17/18 just before going for NS, but he still got an EP. How does one explain that?

Also, at what age do young 2nd generation PRs get their blue IC? Just curious

[SingaporeDon]

One other thing - what about inheritance? If he can never be a PR/citizen - does it affect being able to claim inheritance (since parents's assets are mostly in Singapore?)

To inherit his parent's assets, he does not need to be a citizen or PR of the country where the assets are situated or have the same nationality or PR status as his parents. There is no issue at all there

[therat]

To inherit his parent's assets, he does not need to be a citizen or PR of the country where the assets are situated or have the same nationality or PR status as his parents. There is no issue at all there

depend on what type assets.

If HDB, he need to be at least a PR.
If not, he need to sell it away.

[trebuchet]

Hi NeedAdvice2012,

I am in a very similar situation to your husband. I dropped my PR at about 18 and left for college and remained outside Singapore for work and am still overseas. I am above currently over 30. I think that your husband is very lucky to have received his EP as I know of many people in my shoes who couldn't even get that. I'd be very interested to know your findings about whether your husband can regain his PR and perhaps onto citizenship. Given the current political climate and the recent high profile cases I think this will be very hard.

[Mad Scientist]

Hi NeedAdvice2012,

I am in a very similar situation to your husband. I dropped my PR at about 18 and left for college and remained outside Singapore for work and am still overseas. I am above currently over 30. I think that your husband is very lucky to have received his EP as I know of many people in my shoes who couldn't even get that. I'd be very interested to know your findings about whether your husband can regain his PR and perhaps onto citizenship. Given the current political climate and the recent high profile cases I think this will be very hard.

You can achieve this by dreaming day and night for many moons

[hellodollar]

Thanks for all the related discussions and responses from some seniors here. Quite useful.

Would like to get some advice here. I've renounced my PR status in 2006 as a First Gen PR. I don't have any qualified Second Gen PR for NS, hence 'Defaulting to NS' is not applicable for my case. I moved out of Singapore in 1999 due to poor economy, like many other people. When my PR was due for renewal in 2006, I couldn't renew it because I was not living in Singapore. I had to surrender my HDB apt (I couldn't sell it in that market condition) and collected my CPF after renouncing. Now that 6 years later, I am getting an offer from a MNC, however I am not sure whether I can get EP & PR eventually. Any suggestions, tips would be appreciated!!