You might like to post this question to OP.sundaymorningstaple wrote:Who's concerned?
Which article?The article? We didn't write it.

Manthink wrote:I am curious if any one had actually listen to Woz's BBC interview?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/ne ... 661755.stm
The way Woz describe about creativity, "think for yourself" and counter-culture is pretty much about anti-Establishment idealism rather than about Singapore.
I don't think it is about anti-establishmentarianism. His point seems to be that in countries like Singapore, from school age you are forced to 'take a side' as he says, of which there is only one. But not wishing to being limited to 'taking only that side' is in not a parallel to being anti it. Mind you in SG I can believe it would be seen in that way, such is the indoctrination and punishment for 'wrong-thinking'.
I agree that he is probably not being directly critical of SG as such, after all you have good jobs etc (which is why you never moan about FT lol). But what he is saying is that is why SG will always be followers, and will always have to import FT. I suppose if SGns are happy with that status quo, then there is nothing to criticise is there?
He was just using the Lion-City as an example of a "structured" society and not meant as a direct criticism in general, which many seems to interpret as.
I'd have thought that he'd be happy to not have SG and other such countries as creative rivals, and yet wealthy enough to hoover up Apple products. Two bites of the cherry in a way.
So tell me, if those "FT" who are flocking to Singapore are looking for Woz's counter-culture environment or seeking to enjoy a piece of the pie that Singaporeans' have?![]()
Quite obviously they're not looking for a environment of counter-culture as one does not exist. On the contrary they come to fill in the gaps that are left due to SGns not having enough creativity. Get in, take a big piece of pie for a few years, then get back out again. That is what most people do.
I am not going to dissect Woz's interview... one have the listen to understand his perspectives, the context and the circumstance he made those statements and comparisons.JR8 wrote: I don't think it is about anti-establishmentarianism. His point seems to be that in countries like Singapore, from school age you are forced to 'take a side' as he says, of which there is only one. But not wishing to being limited to 'taking only that side' is in not a parallel to being anti it. Mind you in SG I can believe it would be seen in that way, such is the indoctrination and punishment for 'wrong-thinking'.
Well, Singaporeans knows what they are lacking. That's why FT's around. They are not all here by invitation.I agree that he is probably not being directly critical of SG as such, after all you have good jobs etc (which is why you never moan about FT lol). But what he is saying is that is why SG will always be followers, and will always have to import FT. I suppose if SGns are happy with that status quo, then there is nothing to criticise is there?
....
Quite obviously they're (FT) not looking for a environment of counter-culture as one does not exist. On the contrary they come to fill in the gaps tat are left due to SGns not having enough creativity. Get in, take a big piece of pie for a few years, then get back out again. That is what most people do.[/color]
Manthink wrote:I am not going to dissect Woz's interview... one have the listen to understand his perspectives, the context and the circumstance he made those statements and comparisons.JR8 wrote: I don't think it is about anti-establishmentarianism. His point seems to be that in countries like Singapore, from school age you are forced to 'take a side' as he says, of which there is only one. But not wishing to being limited to 'taking only that side' is in not a parallel to being anti it. Mind you in SG I can believe it would be seen in that way, such is the indoctrination and punishment for 'wrong-thinking'.
In fact, he already admitted that he was (& still) is into engineering rather than the going into creative-risk-taking enterprise which Apple Employee #0 was famous for.
After all, he is just one of gazillions of opinions on how Creativity can be, well, "created".
And all opinions are driven by many factors, one of which is perception.
"Indoctrination" can be regarded as "education".
"punishment" can be regarded as "deterrence".
"wrong-side" can also be "right"...Ying can be also become Yang...etc etc.
In short, "creativeness" can be either regarded as constructive or destructive...this is all about balance.
And it is this balance or harmony that even Apple find it challenging and illusive...that is normal. No one's perfect. Not even Steve.
Well, Singaporeans knows what they are lacking. That's why FT's around. They are not all here by invitation.I agree that he is probably not being directly critical of SG as such, after all you have good jobs etc (which is why you never moan about FT lol). But what he is saying is that is why SG will always be followers, and will always have to import FT. I suppose if SGns are happy with that status quo, then there is nothing to criticise is there?
....
Quite obviously they're (FT) not looking for a environment of counter-culture as one does not exist. On the contrary they come to fill in the gaps tat are left due to SGns not having enough creativity. Get in, take a big piece of pie for a few years, then get back out again. That is what most people do.[/color]
But they also are aware that FT's are not here for the long-run and are basically mercenarial skilled-pple.
And naturally they have longer-term view than FTs here.
Singapore's existence and success didn't come about with FT "importation". And even it did, those FT would had already sucked a "huge pie" of its resource and wealth long time ago. (think colonialism)
In fact, it owe its current status thru a combination of hard work, decisiveness, honesty, rule-abiding folks, some luck, openness and yes, with some creative imaginations after the Separation. Which, I dare say, share some of the elements of "Apple-ness".
And to use Woz' BBC interview as a chance to take a swap at Singaporeans as a hopeless bunch of "indoctrinated", non-creative/unimaginative "mindless drones" or "a population subdued by ISA" punishment only shows how ignorant, if not arrogant, some of those "creative FTs" have become.
This only creates barrier and suspicions - Major contributing factors to Singapore's violent past and the recent trend in electorate.
This is not quite true at all! The facts come from your own PM that your skills are not good enough, that is why they have kickstarted the program for the upgrade of skills, and even then they state, that upgrading skills will not necessarily mean higher productivity. In other words your Singaporean employers have screwed every dime out of the Singaporean workforce until the locals wouldn't do the hard work. Now they just screw the FT which means the costs are lower and the profit margins higher for a 72 hr employee week.Singapore's existence and success didn't come about with FT "importation". And even it did, those FT would had already sucked a "huge pie" of its resource and wealth long time ago. (think colonialism)
ksl wrote:This is not quite true at all! The facts come from your own PM that your skills are not good enough, that is why they have kickstarted the program for the upgrade of skills, and even then they state, that upgrading skills will not necessarily mean higher productivity.
ksl,ksl wrote: my advice is to either go to more local business meetings and learn were the faults are in Singapore's own structure before playing the FT card. Many Businesses say they will still pay the higher levy if the jobs are not taken by locals as they have to, to survive!
I would just like to point out that you brought up FTs.Manthink wrote:I noticed a trace of anger and defensiveness when comes to the "FT-thing".
Let's not go the way of we-vs-them path.
It is pointless, diversive and serve little for all who has long-term interest for Singapore.
Then why did you bring it up?Manthink wrote:ksl,ksl wrote: my advice is to either go to more local business meetings and learn were the faults are in Singapore's own structure before playing the FT card. Many Businesses say they will still pay the higher levy if the jobs are not taken by locals as they have to, to survive!
Let's keep this thread strictly within the context of Woz's Apple experience and the alleged "creativity-challenged" Singapore system, okay?
I noticed a trace of anger and defensiveness when comes to the "FT-thing".
Let's not go the way of we-vs-them path.
It is pointless, diversive and serve little for all who has long-term interest for Singapore.
To be creative is also to run the risks involved, for over 10 years in the army I rebelled against many traditions and took the punishments as they were dished out, though it doesn't stop one from being the free spirit. Though anarchy is lawlessness, I have never been an anarchist.JR8 wrote:ksl wrote:This is not quite true at all! The facts come from your own PM that your skills are not good enough, that is why they have kickstarted the program for the upgrade of skills, and even then they state, that upgrading skills will not necessarily mean higher productivity.
And the gahmen announce a Creativity Campaign, but participants have to register with the police first.
Much thanks for sharing your early year experiences.ksl wrote:To be creative is also to run the risks involved, for over 10 years in the army I rebelled against many traditions and took the punishments as they were dished out, though it doesn't stop one from being the free spirit....
Manthink wrote: I am not going to dissect Woz's interview...
That is unfortunate, since it is the topic of this thread.
Singapore's existence and success didn't come about with FT "importation".
Well, apart from Raffles and his British administration. Without which SG would probably still be a barren mudflat.
And even it did,
Make your mind up.
In fact, it owe its current status thru a combination of hard work, decisiveness, honesty, rule-abiding folks, some luck, openness and yes, with some creative imaginations after the Separation.
Blah blah, do the party pay you to write this stuff?
Which, I dare say, share some of the elements of "Apple-ness".
Good point, you could say the breaking away was an exercise in inspired bull-headed ego.
And to use Woz' BBC interview as a chance to take a swap at Singaporeans as a hopeless bunch of "indoctrinated", non-creative/unimaginative "mindless drones" or "a population subdued by ISA" punishment only shows how ignorant, if not arrogant, some of those "creative FTs" have become.
Don't try and put words into my mouth, it is an immature debating tactic. You just show up the weakness of your position by doing so.
I was suggesting what Woz's remarks meant, I'm sorry you take that so negatively. Pretty obviously a guy in his position cannot be openly critical of Singapore. I mean just look at your own response, then imagine Apple getting similar back, but at a national level.
This only creates barrier and suspicions - Major contributing factors to Singapore's violent past and the recent trend in electorate.
Maybe you should focus on Woz's comments without trying to redefine for us what he actually thinks. And less of the over-dramatic strawman destruction while you're at it too....![]()
Actually it took me less than 6 months to decide that the unit i was with, an armored (fooking Americanism) Armoured cavalry unit wasn't the place for me, and I told my commanding officer that I joined to be a soldier not a gofa, meaning go for this and go for that, polish my boots and 3 bags full sir! So i was immediately air lifted from an exercise in ---- to be sent to a secret location with like minded individual soldiers who excelled at their job, but couldn't take the traditional orders of cavalry officers and the boredom of cleaning of AFV's.Mankind:I supposed you realized long ago that a career in military is probably the last place for folks who craved individualism or runs on creative instincts
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