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Manthink
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Postby Manthink » Sun, 18 Dec 2011 11:35 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Who's concerned?

You might like to post this question to OP.

The article? We didn't write it.

Which article? :-k

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:02 am

Manthink wrote:I am curious if any one had actually listen to Woz's BBC interview?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/ne ... 661755.stm

The way Woz describe about creativity, "think for yourself" and counter-culture is pretty much about anti-Establishment idealism rather than about Singapore.

I don't think it is about anti-establishmentarianism. His point seems to be that in countries like Singapore, from school age you are forced to 'take a side' as he says, of which there is only one. But not wishing to being limited to 'taking only that side' is in not a parallel to being anti it. Mind you in SG I can believe it would be seen in that way, such is the indoctrination and punishment for 'wrong-thinking'.

I agree that he is probably not being directly critical of SG as such, after all you have good jobs etc (which is why you never moan about FT lol). But what he is saying is that is why SG will always be followers, and will always have to import FT. I suppose if SGns are happy with that status quo, then there is nothing to criticise is there?

He was just using the Lion-City as an example of a "structured" society and not meant as a direct criticism in general, which many seems to interpret as.

I'd have thought that he'd be happy to not have SG and other such countries as creative rivals, and yet wealthy enough to hoover up Apple products. Two bites of the cherry in a way.


So tell me, if those "FT" who are flocking to Singapore are looking for Woz's counter-culture environment or seeking to enjoy a piece of the pie that Singaporeans' have? :wink: :wink:

Quite obviously they're not looking for a environment of counter-culture as one does not exist. On the contrary they come to fill in the gaps that are left due to SGns not having enough creativity. Get in, take a big piece of pie for a few years, then get back out again. That is what most people do.


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Postby Manthink » Mon, 19 Dec 2011 2:21 am

JR8 wrote: I don't think it is about anti-establishmentarianism. His point seems to be that in countries like Singapore, from school age you are forced to 'take a side' as he says, of which there is only one. But not wishing to being limited to 'taking only that side' is in not a parallel to being anti it. Mind you in SG I can believe it would be seen in that way, such is the indoctrination and punishment for 'wrong-thinking'.


I am not going to dissect Woz's interview... one have the listen to understand his perspectives, the context and the circumstance he made those statements and comparisons.
In fact, he already admitted that he was (& still) is into engineering rather than the going into creative-risk-taking enterprise which Apple Employee #0 was famous for.
After all, he is just one of gazillions of opinions on how Creativity can be, well, "created".

And all opinions are driven by many factors, one of which is perception.
"Indoctrination" can be regarded as "education".
"punishment" can be regarded as "deterrence".
"wrong-side" can also be "right"...Ying can be also become Yang...etc etc.

In short, "creativeness" can be either regarded as constructive or destructive...this is all about balance.
And it is this balance or harmony that even Apple find it challenging and illusive...that is normal. No one's perfect. Not even Steve.


I agree that he is probably not being directly critical of SG as such, after all you have good jobs etc (which is why you never moan about FT lol). But what he is saying is that is why SG will always be followers, and will always have to import FT. I suppose if SGns are happy with that status quo, then there is nothing to criticise is there?
....
Quite obviously they're (FT) not looking for a environment of counter-culture as one does not exist. On the contrary they come to fill in the gaps tat are left due to SGns not having enough creativity. Get in, take a big piece of pie for a few years, then get back out again. That is what most people do.[/color]


Well, Singaporeans knows what they are lacking. That's why FT's around. They are not all here by invitation.
But they also are aware that FT's are not here for the long-run and are basically mercenarial skilled-pple.
And naturally they have longer-term view than FTs here.

Singapore's existence and success didn't come about with FT "importation". And even it did, those FT would had already sucked a "huge pie" of its resource and wealth long time ago. (think colonialism ;) )

In fact, it owe its current status thru a combination of hard work, decisiveness, honesty, rule-abiding folks, some luck, openness and yes, with some creative imaginations after the Separation. Which, I dare say, share some of the elements of "Apple-ness".

And to use Woz' BBC interview as a chance to take a swap at Singaporeans as a hopeless bunch of "indoctrinated", non-creative/unimaginative "mindless drones" or "a population subdued by ISA" punishment only shows how ignorant, if not arrogant, some of those "creative FTs" have become.

This only creates barrier and suspicions - Major contributing factors to Singapore's violent past and the recent trend in electorate.

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Postby ksl » Mon, 19 Dec 2011 3:55 am

Manthink wrote:
JR8 wrote: I don't think it is about anti-establishmentarianism. His point seems to be that in countries like Singapore, from school age you are forced to 'take a side' as he says, of which there is only one. But not wishing to being limited to 'taking only that side' is in not a parallel to being anti it. Mind you in SG I can believe it would be seen in that way, such is the indoctrination and punishment for 'wrong-thinking'.


I am not going to dissect Woz's interview... one have the listen to understand his perspectives, the context and the circumstance he made those statements and comparisons.
In fact, he already admitted that he was (& still) is into engineering rather than the going into creative-risk-taking enterprise which Apple Employee #0 was famous for.
After all, he is just one of gazillions of opinions on how Creativity can be, well, "created".

And all opinions are driven by many factors, one of which is perception.
"Indoctrination" can be regarded as "education".
"punishment" can be regarded as "deterrence".
"wrong-side" can also be "right"...Ying can be also become Yang...etc etc.

In short, "creativeness" can be either regarded as constructive or destructive...this is all about balance.
And it is this balance or harmony that even Apple find it challenging and illusive...that is normal. No one's perfect. Not even Steve.


I agree that he is probably not being directly critical of SG as such, after all you have good jobs etc (which is why you never moan about FT lol). But what he is saying is that is why SG will always be followers, and will always have to import FT. I suppose if SGns are happy with that status quo, then there is nothing to criticise is there?
....
Quite obviously they're (FT) not looking for a environment of counter-culture as one does not exist. On the contrary they come to fill in the gaps tat are left due to SGns not having enough creativity. Get in, take a big piece of pie for a few years, then get back out again. That is what most people do.[/color]


Well, Singaporeans knows what they are lacking. That's why FT's around. They are not all here by invitation.
But they also are aware that FT's are not here for the long-run and are basically mercenarial skilled-pple.
And naturally they have longer-term view than FTs here.

Singapore's existence and success didn't come about with FT "importation". And even it did, those FT would had already sucked a "huge pie" of its resource and wealth long time ago. (think colonialism ;) )

In fact, it owe its current status thru a combination of hard work, decisiveness, honesty, rule-abiding folks, some luck, openness and yes, with some creative imaginations after the Separation. Which, I dare say, share some of the elements of "Apple-ness".

And to use Woz' BBC interview as a chance to take a swap at Singaporeans as a hopeless bunch of "indoctrinated", non-creative/unimaginative "mindless drones" or "a population subdued by ISA" punishment only shows how ignorant, if not arrogant, some of those "creative FTs" have become.

This only creates barrier and suspicions - Major contributing factors to Singapore's violent past and the recent trend in electorate.
Singapore's existence and success didn't come about with FT "importation". And even it did, those FT would had already sucked a "huge pie" of its resource and wealth long time ago. (think colonialism ;) )
This is not quite true at all! The facts come from your own PM that your skills are not good enough, that is why they have kickstarted the program for the upgrade of skills, and even then they state, that upgrading skills will not necessarily mean higher productivity. In other words your Singaporean employers have screwed every dime out of the Singaporean workforce until the locals wouldn't do the hard work. Now they just screw the FT which means the costs are lower and the profit margins higher for a 72 hr employee week.

The businesses applied to MOM for the importation of foreign workers, as Singaporeans were too lazy to do the work. Admittedly that the Employers were much to blame in not supporting their workforce but screwing them like slaves and it still goes on today so get your facts right!

Businesses are still suffering because levies have increased on FT to slow it down and the job vacancies are still unfilled, which means some businesses will close down with even more job losses for the few hard working locals or the companies will take advantage of the government initiative to employ locals with high incomes.....but it still doesn't mean the locals will be employed for a free lunch, those that want work, work, those that do not work do not because they cannot or will not be productive.

A good productive local worker is worth their weight in gold and can normally discuss income rise without a problem as no company in their right mind wants to lose a good worker, other than Singapore companies that is., never forget that!

Though workers that are good with their mouth and non productive will always be sacked, that is a fact.

So my advice is to either go to more local business meetings and learn were the faults are in Singapore's own structure before playing the FT card. Many Businesses say they will still pay the higher levy if the jobs are not taken by locals as they have to, to survive!

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 19 Dec 2011 4:35 am

ksl wrote:This is not quite true at all! The facts come from your own PM that your skills are not good enough, that is why they have kickstarted the program for the upgrade of skills, and even then they state, that upgrading skills will not necessarily mean higher productivity.


And the gahmen announce a Creativity Campaign, but participants have to register with the police first.





:lol:

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Postby Manthink » Mon, 19 Dec 2011 10:57 am

ksl wrote: my advice is to either go to more local business meetings and learn were the faults are in Singapore's own structure before playing the FT card. Many Businesses say they will still pay the higher levy if the jobs are not taken by locals as they have to, to survive!


ksl,

Let's keep this thread strictly within the context of Woz's Apple experience and the alleged "creativity-challenged" Singapore system, okay?

I noticed a trace of anger and defensiveness when comes to the "FT-thing".

Let's not go the way of we-vs-them path.
It is pointless, diversive and serve little for all who has long-term interest for Singapore.

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Postby nakatago » Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:01 am

Manthink wrote:I noticed a trace of anger and defensiveness when comes to the "FT-thing".

Let's not go the way of we-vs-them path.
It is pointless, diversive and serve little for all who has long-term interest for Singapore.


I would just like to point out that you brought up FTs.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:01 am

Manthink wrote:
ksl wrote: my advice is to either go to more local business meetings and learn were the faults are in Singapore's own structure before playing the FT card. Many Businesses say they will still pay the higher levy if the jobs are not taken by locals as they have to, to survive!


ksl,

Let's keep this thread strictly within the context of Woz's Apple experience and the alleged "creativity-challenged" Singapore system, okay?

I noticed a trace of anger and defensiveness when comes to the "FT-thing".

Let's not go the way of we-vs-them path.

It is pointless, diversive and serve little for all who has long-term interest for Singapore.


Then why did you bring it up? :roll:

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Postby Manthink » Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:53 am

Mod/SMS, check the initial postings please.

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Postby ksl » Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:12 pm

JR8 wrote:
ksl wrote:This is not quite true at all! The facts come from your own PM that your skills are not good enough, that is why they have kickstarted the program for the upgrade of skills, and even then they state, that upgrading skills will not necessarily mean higher productivity.

And the gahmen announce a Creativity Campaign, but participants have to register with the police first.

:lol:
To be creative is also to run the risks involved, for over 10 years in the army I rebelled against many traditions and took the punishments as they were dished out, though it doesn't stop one from being the free spirit. Though anarchy is lawlessness, I have never been an anarchist.
I have total respect for some laws and contempt for others whereby risks are taken, and I am surely not the only one. The problem with all laws, rules, and traditions are that they have to be tested, with commonsense in mind.

Commonsense rules my heart, and not rank, file and the authority. Though it does have long term consequences on career not to follow orders, it doesn't stop one being the best in the face of authority. Though I signed my life away on the dotted line because of environmental living standards and my future, not even considering a career move as the life was to travel and escape an environment traditions! England is full of controversial traditions between them and us, the conservative projectionist ways which we see in the face of European explosion.. At heart I am pulled between two evils of conservatism and liberal in the end i go my own way. While the politicians look after their own back yard they don't give a toss about Joe blogs. The art of being a survivor is to use the system to ones own advantage, ride the waves and blow with the wind, be creative enough to walk a tight rope stepping only occasionally on the line of questionability. One weighs up the pro's and cons and the opportunity cost to oneself. before playing the cards at the right time.

This rebellousness of societies rigid frame work pays dividends in the long term as initiative and creativity is recognized when one cannot upgrade further and one is more qualified than the bosses in charge I am, what is success for me, maybe nothing to anyone else. I have the freedom to decide my own fate and that is enough for me.

Respect is two way communication and voices need to be heard!

I have deleted the rest of my post as my passion is for a better Singapore for Singaporeans and our own workforce is a genuine need for development. Employers greed is partly to blame for Singapore's situation, just like maids are misused at home so are the local people too and when locals fail to continue hard work for fair wages, foreign labour is the only way to go. The fault is obviously between employers and workers, greed and loyalty clash! Though the FT cannot and should not be blamed for this. Locals must learn to be loyal, hard working and multi skilled to be of any use. The more expensive Singapore becomes, the more survivability is reduced, and the call for more skills needed. Someone needs to invest in the workforce and employers will not unless there are guarantees of trust and loyalty. The governments carrot of grants for upgrading skills is not enough in my mind to counter the disloyalty of workers. Finding the balance is the correct way as Manthink says. Respect is a two way communication but this is Singapore still young and wet behind the ears, and a 100 years or more will be needed before FT's are reduced to a level of acceptance.
Last edited by ksl on Mon, 19 Dec 2011 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Manthink » Mon, 19 Dec 2011 2:57 pm

ksl wrote:To be creative is also to run the risks involved, for over 10 years in the army I rebelled against many traditions and took the punishments as they were dished out, though it doesn't stop one from being the free spirit....


Much thanks for sharing your early year experiences.

I supposed you realized long ago that a career in military is probably the last place for folks who craved individualism or runs on creative instincts

Not everyone is cut-out for such professions that demands regimentation and unquestioning subservient to commanders.

Its the same thing with creativity, not everyone can be Woz or Lady-Gaga.

Perhaps there is always a price to pay when on tries to seek a balance between the free-spirit "creativity" while stepping out of line from the established system.

You found that out in those 10-years and like you, Singaporeans are learning too.

Maybe that was one reason why Woz got invited to Singapore just this Mar for some motivation-talk.
http://www.ntuclearninghub.com/media-co ... a-coverage

It never hurts to try, never mind those nay-sayers about Singapore system..

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Postby KaylaSkips » Mon, 19 Dec 2011 3:02 pm

Singapore does have its own pool of creatives. But because Singapore has such a small population, that pool of creatives is sadly, not known to most people. Being creative, is not something out there. Not even in other countries. We have many home grown design studios that Singaporeans themselves aren't aware of and I must say, produce excellent design work. An abandoned school now turned creative building called Old School at Mt Sophia, houses local design firms and photography studios that the general public of Singapore isn't aware about. I wouldn't say Singapore isn't creative just because these talents are not out there right in your face.

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 19 Dec 2011 5:24 pm

Manthink wrote:I am not going to dissect Woz's interview...

That is unfortunate, since it is the topic of this thread.

Singapore's existence and success didn't come about with FT "importation".

Well, apart from Raffles and his British administration. Without which SG would probably still be a barren mudflat.


And even it did,

Make your mind up. :)

In fact, it owe its current status thru a combination of hard work, decisiveness, honesty, rule-abiding folks, some luck, openness and yes, with some creative imaginations after the Separation.

Blah blah, do the party pay you to write this stuff?

Which, I dare say, share some of the elements of "Apple-ness".

Good point, you could say the breaking away was an exercise in inspired bull-headed ego.


And to use Woz' BBC interview as a chance to take a swap at Singaporeans as a hopeless bunch of "indoctrinated", non-creative/unimaginative "mindless drones" or "a population subdued by ISA" punishment only shows how ignorant, if not arrogant, some of those "creative FTs" have become.

Don't try and put words into my mouth, it is an immature debating tactic. You just show up the weakness of your position by doing so.

I was suggesting what Woz's remarks meant, I'm sorry you take that so negatively. Pretty obviously a guy in his position cannot be openly critical of Singapore. I mean just look at your own response, then imagine Apple getting similar back, but at a national level.


This only creates barrier and suspicions - Major contributing factors to Singapore's violent past and the recent trend in electorate.

Maybe you should focus on Woz's comments without trying to redefine for us what he actually thinks. And less of the over-dramatic strawman destruction while you're at it too.... :roll:


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Postby ksl » Mon, 19 Dec 2011 5:30 pm

Mankind:I supposed you realized long ago that a career in military is probably the last place for folks who craved individualism or runs on creative instincts


Actually it took me less than 6 months to decide that the unit i was with, an armored (fooking Americanism) Armoured cavalry unit wasn't the place for me, and I told my commanding officer that I joined to be a soldier not a gofa, meaning go for this and go for that, polish my boots and 3 bags full sir! So i was immediately air lifted from an exercise in ---- to be sent to a secret location with like minded individual soldiers who excelled at their job, but couldn't take the traditional orders of cavalry officers and the boredom of cleaning of AFV's.

So after a couple of tours I decided working in small teams with like minded people was more inspiring and less bureaucratic and traditional. Creativity is a learning experience from like minded individuals, so you are far from being right, that a place doesn't exsist in the military.

Not everyones cup of tea, to think for themselves, as Woz indicates. Of course there is always God hovering around wherever he maybe, but he never produces the results, so reliance on others may also be a weakness in a survival situation.So planning and foresight is always beneficial for any negative impacts that arrive like someone resigning. What some people do not realize is that body language is all too important not to take notice of.

The more understanding of the mind and how it works from a psychological point of view can help HR not make so many cock ups, especially in a Country that is full of con artist's though i leave our own HR to learn by their mistakes, after reminding them of the dangers of being used has a stepping stone.

Normal working life is full of ups and downs, so being prepared with various skill sets will help in difficult times. Unfortunately University Educational facilities rarely discuss these pitfalls of not enjoying ones chosen occupation. for the more lower paid environment it's a case of getting the experience and doing it right, and that is difficult if the country as always been doing it wrong just like driving through a traffic light on amber, their comes a time when the shit hits the fan, then its took late.
Last edited by ksl on Mon, 19 Dec 2011 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 19 Dec 2011 5:46 pm

Armored Cav = HCR?

I thought you guys spent all day polishing your helmets :P :lol:


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