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what's with the hostility? uncalled for or...?

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taxico
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what's with the hostility? uncalled for or...?

Postby taxico » Sat, 03 Dec 2011 9:31 pm

i refer to Saint's post to a derailed topic in this thread http://forum.singaporeexpats.com/ftopic82029.html wherein:

Saint wrote:This is exactly the reason I have retired from posting on the forum, the agro and abuse newbies and less knowledgeable posters have been getting from the regulars has increased over the last few months. I was ill for a few weeks...

...and didn't have the energy to read the forum let alone post. When I finally logged back in and reviewed a couple of weeks of postings it was shocking just how negative and bad the forum has become...


over the last few years my activity within here has decreased for various reasons, including the ones mentioned above. not every member (whether active or not) is guilty of the above - at least not all of time (especially if i include myself).

i understand how frustrating it can be to see certain types of questions posted here, and make no mistake, i do appreciate the moderators' "code of conduct" on this forum - i just wonder if some types of replies from certain members to "undeserving" threads are warranted, especially when this is just an internet forum (which in itself, may mean such behavior is okay?).

i know it's in some people's nature to be confrontational and/or keeping it real (heck, my real life personality makes me want to say things the way i see it) but many times i hold my tongue and fingers because; what's the point in inviting a hostile reply or being rude?

or perhaps i'm just getting old... *strokes beard sagely*

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Postby Brooklynjenn » Sun, 04 Dec 2011 12:41 am

Taxico, my mom used to say if you can't find something nice to say don't say anything at all. I agree with your sentiment, but retiring doesn't help the newbies out at all, it is just throwing them to the wolves, so to speak. Having moved here quite recently, I can say I have felt the harsh scorn of oldsters for asking questions they didn't want to see again. I am here hoping to counterbalance the attitude.

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Postby Superglide » Sun, 04 Dec 2011 3:23 am

So nothing changed here then... :twisted:

Why bother lah, just read and take the information you need or want, the rest you dump or don't read?

One basic rule on the internet: don'take anything personal, as the other one doesn't know you. If he or she knows you, there's the private message to clear things up.

Man, don't get me started about ranting on this very forum... :P

Saint, c'mon buddy, you're getting old, isn't it? :D
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Postby Mad Scientist » Sun, 04 Dec 2011 5:49 am

Saint buddy

If you are feeling old, I AM ALREADY OLD. I am touching 60 soon.
Look, I am also guilty of the insinuations to newbies and for that I apologize to all of you.
For the mods, I leave it to them to sort it out themselves as I believe their hands are full and I am not interested in taking over the reins at all.
Having said that I have been abused more than ever by newbies on the subject that I am good at. Not once but many a times across the board from all races.
The mods that read my PM comms knew that. There are many a times I had wanted to throw in the towel . I was advised against it. You take everything with a grain of salt. I will do my upmost to post in a context of not belittling anyone. IMHO is it goes both ways on this issue
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Postby x9200 » Sun, 04 Dec 2011 8:08 am

It boils IMHO down to the question: is it really the right way to serve every newbie the requested information politely and unconditionally? I think it is not. Over a longer time it actually harms such people more than being confrontational or rude. It teaches to be dependent and reliant with no effort required on their side. It is also almost a principle that such people even if best served show no gratitude of any kind. It's like we own them this information. Many newbies already feel insulted and turn into an attack mode when politely asked to use the search function first. Not a small group at all gets aggressive if they don't like the answers (be it polite or not). Is it the right attitude? Ideally such people should be just ignored but unfortunately there are not that many saints around :) Perhaps the trend you see is just a natural response for the increasing No of newbies with such attitude?

My 2c.

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Postby JR8 » Sun, 04 Dec 2011 8:23 am

^^^+1

I am taken aback by the extreme and ready aggression shown routinely on this forum by newbies demanding personal tailored help.

I appreciate job-hunting and relocation are stressful events in life and so some people ultimately want personal hand-holding, but... the speed of some of them to attack when they don't get precisely what they want :o

I've been on the net since '83, and web since '94 and can't say I've seen the 'Help me!/Attack dog' approach anywhere else... most strange.

p.s. the funny thing is, that even if you opt to stay out of a topic and observe instead, you can usually spot a discussion that's going to end in acrimony from the very first post, i.e. the OP's.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 04 Dec 2011 11:13 am

It all comes from a malaise that seems to be affecting most of the "educated" youth of today as well as some middle agers (to a much lesser extent though - though they probably have more right to think thus).

The malaise? It's called the feeling of "entitlement". Once they get a certain level of education they think the world is supposed to be their oyster. Unfortunately, their schools and parents are partially to blame but it comes across as a bad attitude. When that happens, the response is usually in kind.

Wrong on our part as well. But, unfortunately everyone is human. As the Holy Goh, mentioned once, if you don't confront rude, inconsiderate people head on and let them know it NOT alright, they you are tacitly approving of their behaviour. :-k

Of course, two wrongs don't make a right. :(

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Postby BillyB » Sun, 04 Dec 2011 1:58 pm

I completely agree with JR8, x9200, and SMS.

I really dislike people who expect everything to be done for them on a plate - it show laziness and a bad attitude. Help and assistance should be earned by at least demonstrating you've tried to help yourself first - there are so many 5 post wonders on the board who do nothing to help anyone else and you know they are looking for a specific answer and will never return again.

'Oh, I've searched everywhere on this board and I can't find anything on how to spend 30k a month', or 'thank you in advance, this forum is really good......can you help me to find a property for 3.5k a month'. FFS sake, if you have the brains to secure a job in SG then you have the common sense to know what things cost with a little bit of research, and how to search for a property on the net, what schooling costs, how much tax is here etc. It's all very basic information that I'd expect a 16 year old to be able to find quite easily with minimal guidance. Pick up the phone and ask if in doubt.

This board is an information treasure trove and anyone who can't find answers to the very basics deserves to have their stupidity pointed out!

Although an idiots guide to moving to Singapore - a sort of collection of SMS's links, incorporating everything you could possibly need to know about SG with suggested timelines for things such as opening a bank account, filing tax, getting your EP - would be very useful as a sticky.

One critique I do have is people giving opinions on immigration and work passes and who is allowed to work here and who isn't. It's incredibly subjective and the simple answer is, no-one knows the policies and what goes on behind closed doors in immigration and at the MOM so it's complete speculation. This is bad advice and shouldn't be dished out to people who are making important career decisions - and who may actually listen to the advice they are given.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 04 Dec 2011 3:26 pm

Which is ironic at times because we state categorically that the information we give here is purely anecdotal and that MOM & ICA DO hold their cards very close to their chest. This is also why we tend to call a spade a spade. Some of us DO have a lot of experience when dealing with both of these agencies.

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Postby nutnut » Sun, 04 Dec 2011 4:42 pm

I'd just like to say...


YOU GUYS DON'T KNOW S**T!!!


Sorry, just joking :P :P :P

Being a newbie on the forum myself, I must admit that I am surprised that those who come on new and expect that they can get whatever they want however they want and complain when JR8 gives them a hard time (or someone else). In my experience of Forums from different topics and walks of life, those who spend the time and effort to answer the same questions 2/3/4/5 times tend to not want to hear cheek from people.

Frankly, if you have a sheet of paper on your office door with answers to a load of questions that people normally ask and someone walked in to your office and asked them all expecting an answer then you'd tell them to go back out and start again right?

And if people don't like someone being rude to them, then they don't have to be here, this forum is what it is, it's an expat forum, yes, but it's also an online community of regulars without whom there would be no knowledge base!

I enjoy it here and currently happy to call it my newest forum home!

To the newbies, ask sensible questions in the right way and you'll get sensible answers in the way you hope, don't just expect to walk into a new building and go demanding things, this is a voluntary home for people whove been here a while and they help you, but, don't expect them to always tell you the stuff you want.
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 04 Dec 2011 5:56 pm

^^^^
++1

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BillyB
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Postby BillyB » Sun, 04 Dec 2011 10:28 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Which is ironic at times because we state categorically that the information we give here is purely anecdotal and that MOM & ICA DO hold their cards very close to their chest. This is also why we tend to call a spade a spade. Some of us DO have a lot of experience when dealing with both of these agencies.


Some do, but not everyone who chooses to cast judgement on new entrants to Singapore.

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Postby nakatago » Sun, 04 Dec 2011 10:28 pm

nutnut wrote:Frankly, if you have a sheet of paper on your office door with answers to a load of questions that people normally ask and someone walked in to your office and asked them all expecting an answer then you'd tell them to go back out and start again right?


Let's say we put a dedicated F.A.Q. It won't work because people don't read. Case in point, kraikk's sticky on NS-related issues.

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Postby nutnut » Sun, 04 Dec 2011 11:15 pm

Well, you say it won't work, but it may reduce things down a bit!?!? At the end of the day, if someone is too stupid to read a FAQ then they kinda deserve a slap!
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Postby nakatago » Sun, 04 Dec 2011 11:27 pm

nutnut wrote:Well, you say it won't work, but it may reduce things down a bit!?!? At the end of the day, if someone is too stupid to read a FAQ then they kinda deserve a slap!


That's what stickies are for.

...anyway, haters gonna hate.


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