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To fire or not?

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ausinsg
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Postby ausinsg » Sun, 09 Oct 2011 7:16 am

Out of interest, what is the acceptable minimum number of warnings before dismissing someone here?

A spoken warning and two written warnings? More? Less?

I have a boss who wants to fire people asap when they aggravate him. I would rather have some kind of paper trail so we can support the decision if it is ever challenged.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 09 Oct 2011 12:49 pm

No, there are not any minimum warnings necessary. Why should there be? Let's say the guy is a thief, do you give him a warning? Or do you sack him? Yeah, that's extreme, but lets say, in macaroonie's case, the individual is robbing the company of it's productivity? A good employer/HR dept and good line managers should report any signs of problems as soon as they crop up, "then" the subject employee should get a verbal or written warning (depending on what it is) After that? Whatever SOP has been adopted by the company itself. Some might opt to just sack. Again, it's their priority.

Having said that, the company has to follow certain protocols to stay legal, e.g., giving proper notice or payment of salary in lieu of notice, unless the causes for said dismissal is eligible for instant dismissal without notice or in-lieu.

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Postby macaroonie » Wed, 12 Oct 2011 9:58 am

There are some improvements! Though i think when it comes to attitude, that can't be changed substantially unless the person really wants to change. I know that firing is necessary sometimes, and it certainly shouldn't be viewed as the easy way out right?

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Postby Mad Scientist » Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:37 am

macaroonie wrote:There are some improvements! Though i think when it comes to attitude, that can't be changed substantially unless the person really wants to change. I know that firing is necessary sometimes, and it certainly shouldn't be viewed as the easy way out right?


IMHO, you must have been tolerating her for sometimes even before you contemplate to fire her. I would be incline to extend her probation just to be on the safe side. To err to the side of caution is the best approach
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:37 am

For me, as an HR Manager, firing somebody is never easy. Even when for just cause. But, I also know, not to do so could conceivably cause me to lose other employees that may well be more important as they may be having problems coping with the individual, there their productivity also suffers and their thinking that the management doesn't care, puts you and the company in a bad light. This could obviously have a knock-on effect down the road.

Food for thought? :wink:

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Postby macaroonie » Wed, 12 Oct 2011 2:52 pm

SMS i agree with you and i know you have valid points here. I have thought about the effect on others too, especially when the rest are good! It's never easy is it. HR must be a very exciting job!!

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Postby irvine » Wed, 12 Oct 2011 4:46 pm

Hi macaroonie... I hear ya! It can be quite frustrating.

I once had a colleague who was very rude in both verbal and emails. It was offensive rude. But this person did not realize the way she said things were rude. To her, she was merely stating the facts.

I don't think you have overly high expectations. It sounds like a mismatch of working/communication styles. Taking it to a further level, it is unfortunately not a professional quality an employee (especially in an MNC) should have.

This person may however do well in an environment where her style is appreciated and necessary. So don't feel bad :)

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Postby beautifulbum » Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:14 am

macaroonie wrote:I have tried sitting down and talking once, things improved a bit and then on the slide again. Cocky, rude behaviour towards people. There is a difference between being outspoken and being rude and offensive. Definitely not a team player. I keep thinking that perhaps i can change this person and give them the chance to grow and wise up, but any attempts to help are met with defensive behaviour. Doesn't seem to see there is a problem.

Feel really bad firing someone when the economic situation is not that great and going to get worse. There are many worse people out there, am i being too strict with my standards?


Sorry to be abrupt. Knowing that she's new in your organization and she's being cocky and rude? There must be some wrong with her not just the attitude. Every time, I step into a new office/organization, I never was once rude or cocky. It's just wrong.

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Postby ksl » Thu, 13 Oct 2011 1:07 pm

beautifulbum wrote:
macaroonie wrote:I have tried sitting down and talking once, things improved a bit and then on the slide again. Cocky, rude behaviour towards people. There is a difference between being outspoken and being rude and offensive. Definitely not a team player. I keep thinking that perhaps i can change this person and give them the chance to grow and wise up, but any attempts to help are met with defensive behaviour. Doesn't seem to see there is a problem.

Feel really bad firing someone when the economic situation is not that great and going to get worse. There are many worse people out there, am i being too strict with my standards?


Sorry to be abrupt. Knowing that she's new in your organization and she's being cocky and rude? There must be some wrong with her not just the attitude. Every time, I step into a new office/organization, I never was once rude or cocky. It's just wrong.
Beautifulbum you have the assets dear and the right attitude to keep everyone happy :lol: Wish there were more like you!

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Postby macaroonie » Thu, 13 Oct 2011 2:03 pm

Yes Beautifullum, i wish everyone was like you! and i agree one would be expected to exhibit basic manners, if not exceptional if one is new! Some people come in with an assumed arrogance and think they are better than others!

And thank you Irvine for your sentiments! Appreciate it immensely!

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Postby gcharles » Thu, 13 Oct 2011 2:24 pm

After chatting with her and the attitude still goes on, I think you'll need to let her sign a written warning, indicating your terms. So if ever the day comes, you'll be able to defend yourself if she files a complain. Word of mouth is not admissible to any court of law.
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Postby Addadude » Thu, 13 Oct 2011 4:47 pm

gcharles wrote:After chatting with her and the attitude still goes on, I think you'll need to let her sign a written warning, indicating your terms. So if ever the day comes, you'll be able to defend yourself if she files a complain.


I very much doubt that you'd ever have to worry about that in Singapore. MOM has the opinion that since, subject to the employment contract and notice period, an employee can resign at any time without having to give a reason, the employer can also fire the employee without having to give a reason.

Seems quite reasonable when you put it like that!
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Postby macaroonie » Thu, 10 Nov 2011 9:10 am

It's true, a leopard is unlikely to change it's spots. During probation apparently no reason needs to be given for termination. A poor work attitude can not change, especially a deep rooted one.


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