Singapore Expats Forum

To fire or not?

Discuss about getting a well paid job or career advancement. Ask about salaries, expat packages, CPF & taxes for expatriate.

macaroonie
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 337
Joined: Mon, 29 Jun 2009

To fire or not?

Postby macaroonie » Fri, 07 Oct 2011 9:31 am

Hi All
I've just employed someone who outwardly seemed qualified for the position and keen to learn/work hard etc. Unfortunately this person has turned out to be on the border of rude in her dealings with others, always saying it's unfair when given work (even though she has the lightest workload given she is new). Hasn't adapted well at all to the organisation, questions and complains about so many things that are quite frankly petty. I know she hates the country and obviously insecure as a person. When does compassion stop and the hard decision of firing her start?

User avatar
Saint
Director
Director
Posts: 3535
Joined: Thu, 16 Jun 2005
Location: The Juban Stand, Boat Quay
Contact:

Postby Saint » Fri, 07 Oct 2011 9:39 am

Probationary period?

macaroonie
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 337
Joined: Mon, 29 Jun 2009

Postby macaroonie » Fri, 07 Oct 2011 9:39 am

yes still on probation

User avatar
Mad Scientist
Director
Director
Posts: 3457
Joined: Thu, 03 Dec 2009
Location: TIMBUKTU

Postby Mad Scientist » Fri, 07 Oct 2011 10:49 am

macaroonie wrote:yes still on probation


In SG , hire and fire is the name of the game. If you have not done it before and this is the first, read employment act and your contract that she signed. The employment contract supersede the Employment Act . This Act is only meant for a guide. If she is under probationary, inform her that her employment will not be extended after probationary period.
You will feel a lump in your throat and feel bad after dismissing her. That is what I had gone thru when I fired a person the first time. I feel bad for a week. Just make sure you cover all the bases if you intend to dismiss her.
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

User avatar
sundaymorningstaple
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 34793
Joined: Thu, 11 Nov 2004
Location: Still Fishing!
Contact:

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 07 Oct 2011 10:51 am

When? Right now. If you are allowing it while the employee is still on probation, what's are they going to be like after confirmation.

The usual letter I give is a termination letter indicating that the person is not a good corporate fit. I will also usually allow them to have the option of accepting the termination letter or giving me a letter of resignation. Obviously this is more for their benefit than the company's benefit.

sms

User avatar
Addadude
Reporter
Reporter
Posts: 702
Joined: Fri, 26 May 2006
Location: Darkest Telok Blangah
Contact:

Postby Addadude » Fri, 07 Oct 2011 12:06 pm

If it will help salve your conscience, have a quiet chat with her about her current performance and attitude. Indicate firmly that it HAS to change and that this is a condition for her to continue working in your organisation. If there is no immediate change, fire her according to the terms and conditions of her employment contract.
"Both politicians and nappies need to be changed regularly, and for the same reasons."

macaroonie
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 337
Joined: Mon, 29 Jun 2009

Postby macaroonie » Fri, 07 Oct 2011 1:38 pm

I have tried sitting down and talking once, things improved a bit and then on the slide again. Cocky, rude behaviour towards people. There is a difference between being outspoken and being rude and offensive. Definitely not a team player. I keep thinking that perhaps i can change this person and give them the chance to grow and wise up, but any attempts to help are met with defensive behaviour. Doesn't seem to see there is a problem.

Feel really bad firing someone when the economic situation is not that great and going to get worse. There are many worse people out there, am i being too strict with my standards?

User avatar
Mad Scientist
Director
Director
Posts: 3457
Joined: Thu, 03 Dec 2009
Location: TIMBUKTU

Postby Mad Scientist » Fri, 07 Oct 2011 1:46 pm

macaroonie wrote:I have tried sitting down and talking once, things improved a bit and then on the slide again. Cocky, rude behaviour towards people. There is a difference between being outspoken and being rude and offensive. Definitely not a team player. I keep thinking that perhaps i can change this person and give them the chance to grow and wise up, but any attempts to help are met with defensive behaviour. Doesn't seem to see there is a problem.

Feel really bad firing someone when the economic situation is not that great and going to get worse. There are many worse people out there, am i being too strict with my standards?


Nah, if the employee does not fit into your organization then is best to let her go. You will rue the chances of not letting her go now when you have the opportunity. Once she is confirmed than it will cost more to dismiss her.
Most importantly is if you find that keeping her is detrimental to your operation than this is a wise choice. Make sure the choice that you made is made by you not being coerce into it. Right or wrong only you can be the judge of it.
A Good Leader is a leader that made a choice and stick to it, A Bad Leader is the one that DOES NOT make any choice
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

User avatar
ksl
Governor
Governor
Posts: 6005
Joined: Mon, 19 Jul 2004
Location: Singapore
Contact:

Postby ksl » Fri, 07 Oct 2011 1:53 pm

Feel really bad firing someone when the economic situation is not that great and going to get worse
You need to evaluate if there is any value at all by keeping her on, until you find a replacement!

If there is no value at all get rid of her asap! No need to feel guilty, these kind of people bring it on themselves, you have discussed once with her, you could maybe give her a last warning and explain in writing how it is, some people just don't get the message until it's in their hand, this way they know were it is going and can always look for another job and will resign if they have no intention of changing their ways.

macaroonie
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 337
Joined: Mon, 29 Jun 2009

Postby macaroonie » Fri, 07 Oct 2011 4:33 pm

Find good quality people is difficult to say the least. I am wondering whether i expect too much? Basic courtesy, asking 'can i help you' instead of 'who are you'... is this asking too much? It's not like anything illegal or unethical has been done. It's just a bad fit, cockiness, not working as a team, rebellious behaviour and the propensity to offend a lot of people she comes across. There are worse people who are still here (not under me though). No she does not meet my expectations, but do i expect too much, give the caliber of labour here is at a different level.

User avatar
sundaymorningstaple
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 34793
Joined: Thu, 11 Nov 2004
Location: Still Fishing!
Contact:

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 07 Oct 2011 5:13 pm

Will the employee's attitude wear thin with their colleagues? Will it grate the nerves of your clients? Will you be constantly cringing and grinding your teeth with her behavior & attitude? If you answered yes to any of them then get rid of her as it's only going to get worse and once she's been confirmed then you have a bigger problem as it won't stop and you won't have an excuse as it was exhibited during the probationary period and you found it acceptable.

You can try talking to the employee, but frankly, it sounds like problems on multiple fronts. That's a lot of changing to do. You have more important work to do than trying to create a suitable employee out of nothing. Not to say the grumbling that will start among the rank & file sooner or later......

User avatar
Strong Eagle
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 10841
Joined: Sat, 10 Jul 2004
Location: Off The Red Dot
Contact:

Postby Strong Eagle » Fri, 07 Oct 2011 10:31 pm

macaroonie wrote:Find good quality people is difficult to say the least. I am wondering whether i expect too much? Basic courtesy, asking 'can i help you' instead of 'who are you'... is this asking too much? It's not like anything illegal or unethical has been done. It's just a bad fit, cockiness, not working as a team, rebellious behaviour and the propensity to offend a lot of people she comes across. There are worse people who are still here (not under me though). No she does not meet my expectations, but do i expect too much, give the caliber of labour here is at a different level.


Fire their arse. The number one key takeaway of staff problem management is... don't hire the problem in the first place. Better to say "buh-bye". If you keep the person you will be stuck for a long time with someone you don't like and you will continuously second guess yourself.

If you were wrong, employee will quickly pick up new employment... and if you are right, firing this person will save you years of grief. Do it. Pull the latch on the guillotine, and watch the heads roll... save much grief to yourself later.

macaroonie
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 337
Joined: Mon, 29 Jun 2009

Postby macaroonie » Sat, 08 Oct 2011 10:50 am

Thanks everyone! i guess i have a major problem with firing her straight away is that i truly believe no one is totally bad! They CAN change for the better and many external problems (not directly related to me) are responsible for her behaviour. I believe she can be a better person and related to others, the world, herself better. Unfortunately she is so stubborn and i know she doesn't want to! Just doesn't see there is a problem. I think after one more chance i will have to pull the plug. Thanks everyone for listening!

User avatar
ksl
Governor
Governor
Posts: 6005
Joined: Mon, 19 Jul 2004
Location: Singapore
Contact:

Postby ksl » Sat, 08 Oct 2011 2:17 pm

macaroonie wrote:Thanks everyone! i guess i have a major problem with firing her straight away is that i truly believe no one is totally bad! They CAN change for the better and many external problems (not directly related to me) are responsible for her behaviour. I believe she can be a better person and related to others, the world, herself better. Unfortunately she is so stubborn and i know she doesn't want to! Just doesn't see there is a problem. I think after one more chance i will have to pull the plug. Thanks everyone for listening!


We have had this problem for 6 years, hired and fired more than we wished in the probation period and at the end. None of them have been capable of producing positive results, it puts hell of strain and drain on the company, though you need to face facts, they will break down what you have worked for in the long run....It as nothing to do with being good or bad.

It's about listening, doing as instructed with respect and good manners working with the team, sometimes flexibility is a requirement if you are a small company with limited resources and a degree, doesn't give you exemption from getting your hands dirty, when manual work as to be done. SOP's are a must, and if they don't like the job description they have no need to take the job in the first place though many will use you as a stepping stone until something better comes along, at your cost if you don't identify the problems first.

You need to make it quite clear where they stand, and what you require of them, let them choose if they wish to resign if you cannot afford to let them go straight away. Most grads want to work for MNC for obvious reasons.
Breaking local habits is necessary in a changing environment and they need to know what manners and respect stand for it's that simple but difficult to achieve. So you really need to train someone up from the start and i would choose someone that is young and just finished NS and education or NS alone if a degree is not required. Breaking old habits is nigh impossible.
Last edited by ksl on Sat, 08 Oct 2011 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
QRM
Manager
Manager
Posts: 1831
Joined: Mon, 17 Oct 2005
Location: Nassim hill

Postby QRM » Sat, 08 Oct 2011 2:34 pm

Biggest mistake in life is assuming you can change someone they are what they are. Some can hide it better than others but eventually their true colours show through.


  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “Careers & Jobs in Singapore”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests