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The JR8 vs ylgp thread

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The JR8 vs ylgp thread

Postby ylgp » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 8:32 pm

This thread has been split off from the original thread due to significant deviation at length from the original topic

-Moderator


Good luck Dalia.

As an aside, I have to say I think it is completely off-putting and unfriendly when forum users - usually regular and/or longtime - reply to posts telling the user not to ask for personal advice, or to read another thread, or to use the search feature.

It is rude because it assumes that the person hasn't tried any of these things in the first place (but has probably been unsuccessful), and it is unhelpful because forums are primarily designed for personal advice; they are for having conversations. They are not information repositories, they are awful to search through (and this is true of all forums, including a couple which I [try to] moderate).

There are plenty of people willing to offer personal advice, even if it has been asked/answered before, and if you don't wish to, I suggest simply not saying anything at all.

I am only a newbie and I doubt this post will get me many friends. On the other hand, it would be nice to find a forum which was broke the cliched mould of longtime users snubbing new users.

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Postby beppi » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 8:59 pm

To ylgp:
- This forum (like all of the Internet) IS an information repository, why else would it archive all conversation and provide a search function?
- What is wrong with helping others to help themselves (i.e. telling them about the search function) or pointing them to appropriate sources of information (i.e. other threads or sites)? I believe it is better than not replying at all (your suggestion).
- I agree that this could be done in a friendlier manner in some cases (same here as on other boards), but in order to keep the oldies contributing their wealth of knowledge and experience, they must be allowed to occasionally vent their frustration about people asking again and again questions that either nobody can answer ("How much does it cost to live in Singapore?") or were answered almost daily ("How to find a job in Singapore?").

Nobody will criticise or attack a constructive and interesting post, as yours certainly was. Thanks for posting it!

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 10:39 pm

I’d like to criticise and attack ylgp’s post – lol only kidding

The fact is though, that this as beppi so eloquently describes, is a repository of information. But, it is not some dry old reference library, with info available at whim and on call. It is more like a pub or coffee-shop where the regulars collectively hold a deep knowledge. IME most smaller ‘community’ moderated forums work like that.

If someone walks in from the street asking for the basic qualification criteria of an EPEC, something touched upon frequently, then it is to be expected that people will say use Google, or go to the MoM site. I’m not sure why that troubles you. If someone comes in and says I’ve been to the MoM site, looked at the EPEC requirements but I have a question still. Then these people will be helped. Simple isn’t it, people who help themselves get helped, whereas people who roll up here expecting instant tailored personal info on-demand (and it happens frequently!) get short-shrift. Is that surprising?

What I think you miss is that this is a community, many of it’s members know each other personally. If all they did was sit and wait to reply to ‘How do I get an EPEC?’ 3 times a day then there would be no communication between the members. In which case I expect none of the members would bother visiting (apart from sundaymorningstaple who would talk to himself lol)

Don’t dream that this single forum is suddenly going to break the mould of forum dynamics that exists in the rest of the world just because you’d like it to, or suggest that it should do. It is unlikely and as you say won’t win you many friends, for obvious reasons.

p.s. Do you consider a forum having an FAQ, or being directed to the FAQ ‘rude’?
Last edited by JR8 on Mon, 05 Sep 2011 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby E-CBS » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 10:49 pm

c'est le ton qui fait la musique

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 11:01 pm

E-CBS wrote:c'est le ton qui fait la musique


Don't visit then.

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Postby ylgp » Mon, 05 Sep 2011 11:44 pm

@E-CBS Indeed.

There is nothing wrong with helping others help themselves. As I said, often that has already been tried. It was very interesting looking at the webstats for some forums I was part of, and the things people tried *before* posting were often much more in-depth than people assumed. Further, the usability traces also showed that after being told to "go and look" many people bounced and did not return (I admit that they could have come back another time, from another IP, but it's a point to consider. The first forum reply page is a big exit page).

Forums do save information, and yes you can search. But the very crux of this issue is that they are not very good for searching and finding old information. You end up scrolling a great deal through threads which are out of date , containing lots of whitespace, off-topic information and the like. A discussion board simply isn't meant to be a historical way of organising information, you'd be better off with a CMS or a wiki. I am not complaining that there should be either of these, I am just pointing out the reason why people do post again despite searching diligently (as I did for my first post the other day). FAQs are good, but when you farm out the most prominent search box to Google (to save cycles, I imagine) then the FAQs are not prioritised; and there is no standard FAQ in phpBB, there is no "first place" people know to go and look. Many get neglected because an FAQ needs constant maintenance to stay up to date, but the forum is much more self-maitaining. A wiki is basically a collaborative FAQ, after all.

"Don’t dream that this single forum is suddenly going to break the mould of forum dynamics" - that, if you don't mind me saying, is a bit self-fulfilling. There is nothing wrong with progressive change away from the old ways, if people acknowledge there is something wrong.

@JR8 If people are unfriendly because of this then I think that is rather unreasonable. I haven't made any personal attacks, I've just pointed something out. It shouldn't make for resentment when the status quo is questioned.

I agree with your assertion that people who "help themselves" first should be offered more help, but the point is somewhat moot because as I said, often there are assumptions made towards the negative about what someone has done.

I also acknowledge that you are a community who know each other personally, and I am taking an opportunity to point out, as an outsider to said community, that getting "short shrift" from one or two people who are members of something that you are not [yet] - especially when you have done your due diligence but still are confused - can be very off putting, and it gives an impression of cronyism.

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 06 Sep 2011 12:26 am

ylgp wrote:@JR8 If people are unfriendly because of this then I think that is rather unreasonable.

Welcome to life. How old are you by the way?

Oh! I just made the connection. You are the person who asked about the EPEC and couldn't find the answer. Now I know why you're pissed off! You expected concierge service and didn't get it lol


I also acknowledge that you are a community who know each other personally, and I am taking an opportunity to point out, as an outsider to said community, that getting "short shrift" from one or two people who are members of something that you are not [yet] - especially when you have done your due diligence but still are confused - can be very off putting,

Do I look bovvered? aka Grow a pair will you!

and it gives an impression of cronyism.

No one gains personal advantage here. We're all here voluntarily, and solely because it is fun. Perhaps when you have contributed to the forum you will be in a position to criticise it.

Nothing personal but I think you have a bad and disruptive attitude.



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Postby ylgp » Tue, 06 Sep 2011 12:51 am

"Welcome to life. How old are you by the way? "

Welcome to civilised conversations, where you do not patronise people because of what you think their age is? What is your weight and shoe size?

There was nothing wrong with what I said, it was fair comment and it was not offensive. I made it clear that it was just an opinion, and the things about forums just not being practical for finding old info is not a criticism, it's a widely-accepted fact.

Yes, you have made the correct connection, "lol" that is indeed me. I can assure you, I am not pissed off in the slightest, I am grateful for the answers I had, and I found this other response in browsing the rest of the forum doing some research about my upcoming move.

"nothing personal ...but I think you have a bad attitude"

Don't say "nothing personal" and then make a personal comment, that is nonsensical. If that's personal, then say so - certainly sounds like it is. I don't know you, and you don't know me, and my point wasn't about anyone in particular. I haven't said anything about you, so calm down and stop overreacting.

I plan to contribute to the forum, thank you, hopefully I can help people as well. Thank you for your extended welcome :)

You are doing a grand job of helping to illustrate the point I made in the first place, so for that - "aka" - I thank you again.

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 06 Sep 2011 12:59 am

ylgp wrote:Welcome to civilised conversations


Why do you demand them?

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Postby ylgp » Tue, 06 Sep 2011 1:01 am

What does that even mean?

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Postby E-CBS » Tue, 06 Sep 2011 1:03 am

Don't visit then.


why not?

I'm happy that I found this place, it's been very helpful for me and made me decide to make the move after I was made an offer to relocate. I think the moderators are doing a great job too.

Most information I found through questions and answers from others.

But I don't like maybe 0.01% of the messages by the rude way of responding. That won't stop me from visiting this forum.

Some questions are indeed out of laziness, some out of pure ignorance. I've seen great and very funny replies to these questions, which for sure gave the right message to the lazy or ignorant topic starter.

I also seen very childish and arrogant replies, and sometimes it would have been better to just ignore the topic.. no point in making a point in such a way.

I find this place helpful and funny, and no one is perfect, I hope a bit of criticism is accepted.

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Postby ylgp » Tue, 06 Sep 2011 1:06 am

@E-CBS It might be guessed at that JL8 did not know what the French sentence you wrote meant, which is why s/he replied with something that didn't really make any sense.

I think that's going to land me in deep water... :P

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 06 Sep 2011 1:15 am

ylgp wrote:@E-CBS It might be guessed at that JL8 did not know what the French sentence you wrote meant, which is why s/he replied with something that didn't really make any sense.

I think that's going to land me in deep water... :P


It makes sense to me, if you don't like the music then find another bar.
Yes/No? :)


p.s. There is no water. Apart from this conversation between me and you, this hour, none of this matters one iota.

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Postby E-CBS » Tue, 06 Sep 2011 1:50 am

It makes sense to me, if you don't like the music then find another bar.


With bad musicians .. the result will be an empty bar.
Every bar owner will listen to his "customers" as he wants to make sure they come back.

With just an ugly girl behind the tap, and everything else being fine, I don't think it'll be a problem for the bar owner.

Uuh, but we're not customers, and this is no bar.. so you didn't really understand what I was trying to say.

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Postby ylgp » Tue, 06 Sep 2011 4:15 am

The quasi-literal translation is "it's the sound that makes the music"

I.e. it is not what you say, but how you say it, that matters.


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