PR and NS part xvii

ken2r · Post by **ken2r** » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:56 pm

We have been asked to reply in writing if we plan to apply for PR for our kids and if not, why. The issue is National Service. Should we be directly honest or is there a less direct way to say it? Or does it even matter?

Background...
We have lived here for 6 years and moved here primarily to have our kids go to one of the intl schools. My wife has had PR since 2010 (was previously on an employment pass). I am applying for PR on my own now (currently on an LTVP under my wife). She has a high-paying, stable job. All of my work is outside of Singapore, but I show 90k in director-fee income every year so pay local taxes.

We just received a letter asking if we plan to apply for PR for our children as well (2 young boys, 1 girl) and if not, what is the reason. I assume the issue they are driving at is National Service. We are requested to reply in writing.

Being completely selfish, we don't see any benefit in PR for the kids and I only want it myself so my wife doesn't have to authorize me every time I go to Singtel for a new phone. I don't really want my kids to do NS, but wouldn't be opposed to it if they decided to do it. That said, we respect that we live here at the blessing of the authorities.

My honest response would be: "We have decided not to apply for PR for our kids. [The reason is the issue of National Service.] We believe that such a decision should be made by them individually, not by us, and they should wait until they are at least 15 years old to make such a decision."

Does it matter how we phrase this? Should we mention NS specifically? I know this has always been an issue and it feels like it might be the deciding factor (since I've waited 9+ months for a reply).

Thanks

wkwoods · Post by **wkwoods** » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 2:00 pm

I think you are right. They have come across your PR application and are trying to decide whether or not to grant you PR. If you say that you are not applying for the kids, your PR will likely be rejected so there is no benefit to responding. Not certain if what you say will have any impact on your wife's PR renewal as well.

If you can, I'd suggest that you withdraw your PR application and remain on the LTVP. It's not so bad. I presume you are quite wealthy to be able to direct $90K of income here to fulfil the PR tax requirements. When the boys go to University then you can apply for PR without them. However, they would be Singaporeans culturally, but have no right to live here. I assume if you are wealthy enough, you could always incorporate a local company and then hire them eventually.

If you look at one other thread here, PR for the boys actually may hamper them being educated overseas, because even if they do NS, they may lose it if they study abroad.

I know of a Hong Kong couple who became PR and then Singapore Citizens who openly stated to the ICA when asked (they were applying for a student pass for their son) that the reason they didn't apply for PR for their son was that they didn't want him to do NS. The student pass was approved. However this was 5 years ago, and they are probably more difficult about it now.

Mad Scientist · Post by **Mad Scientist** » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 3:32 pm

May I know where do you come from ?

ken2r · Post by **ken2r** » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 4:00 pm

We are from the US and are all American citizens. My wife is half Chinese and her sister has PR as well. I would hate to put my wife's PR in jeopardy, since she got it primarily to reduce the stress associated with an otherwise company-tied EP. Our whole life is [happily] here without assets anywhere else. We have cash flow, but not exactly wealthy.

Post by **sundaymorningstaple** » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 5:12 pm

So, if I read it right, you want the benefits but not the obligations. Have I gotten that correct?

If you don't include your kids in the package, there is a very strong possibility that your wife's re-entry permit will not be approved either when it comes up for renewal. I would assume it's only a 5 years re-entry permit. In fact, the odds now are very good that because of your application and the linkage to her which would be on the application, if you don't include your kids in your application, then the odds of her getting approved for the next re-entry permit will be diminished greatly. In fact, they may well ask her for written explanation why she has not applied for PR for her children as well.

How to say it? I think they've got you by the short & curlies.

ken2r · Post by **ken2r** » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 5:33 pm

Yes, you are correct.

Mad Scientist · Post by **Mad Scientist** » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 6:06 pm

wkwoods wrote:I think you are right. They have come across your PR application and are trying to decide whether or not to grant you PR. If you say that you are not applying for the kids, your PR will likely be rejected so there is no benefit to responding. Not certain if what you say will have any impact on your wife's PR renewal as well.

Yes, it does on her REP entry

If you can, I'd suggest that you withdraw your PR application and remain on the LTVP. It's not so bad. I presume you are quite wealthy to be able to direct $90K of income here to fulfil the PR tax requirements. When the boys go to University then you can apply for PR without them. However, they would be Singaporeans culturally, but have no right to live here. I assume if you are wealthy enough, you could always incorporate a local company and then hire them eventually.

That depends if you incorporate a Pte Ltd, you need to show proof that you are hiring local 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 depending on the industry that you are involved. Only then you can hire your kids as an EP. But this is a two part process. You may want them to work for you but it is MOM that decides to issue the pass or not.

If you look at one other thread here, PR for the boys actually may hamper them being educated overseas, because even if they do NS, they may lose it if they study abroad.

That is not true. If child has served NS and after that went for overseas studies while child is still holding SG PR, ICA views this differently. Your child will not lose his PR. Just inform ICA prior overseas studies of the intention to return to SG after completion of overseas tertiary with all supporting docs

I know of a Hong Kong couple who became PR and then Singapore Citizens who openly stated to the ICA when asked (they were applying for a student pass for their son) that the reason they didn't apply for PR for their son was that they didn't want him to do NS. The student pass was approved. However this was 5 years ago, and they are probably more difficult about it now.

I think there is more to what you said about this couple. Application for PR have been done based on many categories. Unless more info is provided, this hearsay cannot be based as facts nor evidence of PR/Citizenship approval. One should look closely on the PR application guidelines per se. Sometimes what is being said to one person may not be the exact infos that had happened

Saint · Post by **Saint** » Thu, 21 Jul 2011 9:01 am

ken2r wrote: We just received a letter asking if we plan to apply for PR for our children as well (2 young boys, 1 girl) and if not, what is the reason. I assume the issue they are driving at is National Service. We are requested to reply in writing.

The ICA are basically telling you that unless you include your kids on the PR application there's no way your PR will be approved. Also as mentioned your wife will get the exact same letter when her REP comes up for renewal and most likely it will be denied. The Gahmen have finally got fed up with situations like yours and are now insisting that the entire family must apply for PR or you have no chance of getting approved

azp123 · Post by **azp123** » Thu, 21 Jul 2011 7:27 pm

Great reading...

ken2r · Post by **ken2r** » Mon, 25 Jul 2011 1:50 am

It might not affect the result, but what is the better way to handle this? I'm naively leaning towards #3, but I don't want to piss them off [further].

1. Do not respond to the letter
2. Withdrawal the application
3. Respond that we will let our kids make their own PR decision at age X
4. Ditto, but also cite NS as the issue

My objective would be to push off the decision until wife's not-exactly-P R comes up for renewal. She only got 2 years on the first approval, so that will be in only a year's time. Maybe the ICA was already onto this then.

Mad Scientist · Post by **Mad Scientist** » Mon, 25 Jul 2011 4:23 am

ken2r wrote:It might not affect the result, but what is the better way to handle this? I'm naively leaning towards #3, but I don't want to piss them off [further].

1. Do not respond to the letter
2. Withdrawal the application
3. Respond that we will let our kids make their own PR decision at age X
4. Ditto, but also cite NS as the issue

My objective would be to push off the decision until wife's not-exactly-P R comes up for renewal. She only got 2 years on the first approval, so that will be in only a year's time. Maybe the ICA was already onto this then.

You want my blunt truth. None of the above.
Witdraw and they know you are screwing with them.
Omit your boys or do not respond will come out with rejection.
Cite NS issue and everything goes up in smoke

BT_M · Post by **BT_M** » Sun, 04 Sep 2011 3:03 pm

ken2r wrote:It might not affect the result, but what is the better way to handle this? I'm naively leaning towards #3, but I don't want to piss them off [further].

1. Do not respond to the letter
2. Withdrawal the application
3. Respond that we will let our kids make their own PR decision at age X
4. Ditto, but also cite NS as the issue

My objective would be to push off the decision until wife's not-exactly-P R comes up for renewal. She only got 2 years on the first approval, so that will be in only a year's time. Maybe the ICA was already onto this then.

Normally, if only have one boy in the family, govt will not place him in the combative unit for NS. But if have two boys or more, and health is okay, then no restriction on placement.

ken2r · Post by **ken2r** » Mon, 03 Oct 2011 2:48 pm

I ended up sending the letter stating that we felt the kids should make their own decision about PR when they get older. We didn't specifically mention National Service. My wife (who is my PR sponsor) got a phone call last week from the ICA mentioning that if we included the kids, my "PR application would have much greater merit."

This is of no surprise to the responders above of course, but I thought it was noteworthy that they would make such a call. Usually, I just get 1-sentence letters from them. I suppose I'll receive one of those next week.

BT_M · Post by **BT_M** » Mon, 03 Oct 2011 3:41 pm

ken2r wrote:I ended up sending the letter stating that we felt the kids should make their own decision about PR when they get older. We didn't specifically mention National Service. My wife (who is my PR sponsor) got a phone call last week from the ICA mentioning that if we included the kids, my "PR application would have much greater merit."

This is of no surprise to the responders above of course, but I thought it was noteworthy that they would make such a call. Usually, I just get 1-sentence letters from them. I suppose I'll receive one of those next week.

This particular thread was quoted in another forum(asia1 forum), and was discussed extensively in negative manner by locals. It's better to keep low profile on wanting to become PR and at same time do not wish kids to become PR yet due to NS requirement.

Mad Scientist · Post by **Mad Scientist** » Tue, 04 Oct 2011 3:11 am

BT_M wrote:
ken2r wrote:I ended up sending the letter stating that we felt the kids should make their own decision about PR when they get older. We didn't specifically mention National Service. My wife (who is my PR sponsor) got a phone call last week from the ICA mentioning that if we included the kids, my "PR application would have much greater merit."

This is of no surprise to the responders above of course, but I thought it was noteworthy that they would make such a call. Usually, I just get 1-sentence letters from them. I suppose I'll receive one of those next week.
This particular thread was quoted in another forum(asia1 forum), and was discussed extensively in negative manner by locals. It's better to keep low profile on wanting to become PR and at same time do not wish kids to become PR yet due to NS requirement.

Numerous occasions the topics that were discussed here have been "pinched" by another board/s and even gahmen websites. I have found on three foreign websites. All the things that were hugely debated here were plasted as their own topic in their website. A few of the regulars here came from those board/s. The difference between them and us are huge. For once we gave forum seekers a quite close anecdotal proofs or evidence to the current events. Secondly, we said it like the way it is. Pure hard blunt truth which at times are very difficult to accept but at least you will know and realise what is rumbling on the ground at the moment . Then on you can take stock of your next course of action. No nice tea session, pretension that every things is sweet and rosy.
Thirdly we are the best among them at what we do but we do it for FREE. The list goes on
If you do not bring it up , others will not learn and take precautionary measures or those would be violaters or freebies grabbers will not realise the implications of their actions.

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PR and NS part xvii

PR and NS part xvii

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