The lot of S'poreans...

[nakatago]

hdb flats were designed to be an appreciating asset for singaporeans, with different types so that the citizens will aspire to work harder and "upgrade" to a better type (4-room + 5-room in resale, BTO or DBSS form + maisonette and ECs).
.

So I guess "were" is the operative word; the new flats are comedically smaller than the, ahem, established flats.

[taxico]

hdb flats were designed to be an appreciating asset for singaporeans, with different types so that the citizens will aspire to work harder and "upgrade" to a better type (4-room + 5-room in resale, BTO or DBSS form + maisonette and ECs).
.

So I guess "were" is the operative word; the new flats are comedically smaller than the, ahem, established flats.

the reason why i said were are two pronged:

the official govt line ("asset enhancing policy") in recent months has changed and they are now homes meant for "retirement" not to be monetized for "aspiration", (i won't even go into the flat buy-back scheme) and;

with all the manipulations, dabblings and current pricings, public housing is no longer as affordable as they once were.

as much as the govt says there are enough flats for all newly weds (first time buyers who qualify for a host of "subsidies"), it would appear that supply still (as we speak) does not meet demand.

comfortingly (?) condos have also risen in price and shrunk in size accordingly (potters, overhangs and deadspace are very creative ways to bilk the buyers' wallet) and are also widely available to those who can afford the downpayment or the "flip-it-before-TOP" buyers.

without going into a lengthy technical/economic-type debate, i will end my input here. i'm sure the temasekreview has better fodder than i can provide.

[x9200]

I am curious why OP remain silent when the presented figures speak for itself? To me, this thread started off more as a rant than an attempt to understand the Locals.

Check his other posts and you will have the answer.

I rather wait for the OP's reply to WIMH's finding rather than simply passing judgement on those few 3 dozens posts in last 4 years.

The point is he typically does not respond or the response is not meant to explain anything (or so it appears).
As per WIHM findings they may not have a direct translation to the points of the OP. You can afford the monthly payments and pay them with no delays but this can significantly restrict your comfort of living resulting in what the OP mentioned.
If we are looking for some kind of statistical proof a correlation between the level of house/car loans and the income needs to be part of it. It is a different situation if someone earns 15k and pays 5k for the loan related expense comparing to 8k and 5k respectively.

To make it laud and clear: I am not saying he is right.

[earthfriendly]

And add the part 'heavily made-up ladies prancing around with LV and Coach bags as if their faces heavily depends on them (while adding another chunk of debt into their never-ending social-status-upgrading-expenses'

It all boils down to intolerance. Until we are all willing to accept each one of us "as is" there will always be people using all kinds of gimmicks to gain acceptance, either via prestige or showing off wealth, trophies etc... It all starts at home, on how you interact with your kids.

To show a little bit of intolerance, may I say, stop telling people what to do and be more accepting. Fine line though, I also believe you should never accept unacceptable behaviours!

http://freeplaylife.com/?p=4621


"The effect of all this is intolerance. When you are not tolerated for being who you are, then you cannot tolerate other people for being who they are. Because you were denied a safe, accepting, attached way of living, it’s easy to deny this to others. "

[Wind In My Hair]

As per WIHM findings they may not have a direct translation to the points of the OP. You can afford the monthly payments and pay them with no delays but this can significantly restrict your comfort of living resulting in what the OP mentioned.
If we are looking for some kind of statistical proof a correlation between the level of house/car loans and the income needs to be part of it. It is a different situation if someone earns 15k and pays 5k for the loan related expense comparing to 8k and 5k respectively.

You are a hard taskmaster, X9200, but I aim to please Here are some recent debt to personal disposable income ratios I managed to find:

UK (2006): 159%-164%
New Zealand (2008): 160%-181%
Canada (1Q 2011): 126%-147.3%
Malaysia (2010): 140.4%
US (2007): 123%-138%
Singapore (2009): 105.3%
Thailand (2009): 52.7%

By the way, I'll be on a computer-less vacation for the next 2 weeks so you'll have to do any more googling yourself

[Wind In My Hair]

I don't see many foreigners on Stomp or Temasekreview complaining about the comments there, because most people have the common sense to realise what the site is about and so don't bother. Considering you've been on here bitching about anyone who says a negative thing about Singapore for months now it would seem you still haven't grasped this concept.

Correction: I've been on this forum for years now, way before you joined, and it wasn't always this anti-local. Sure there are always one or two arrogant idiots I clashed with but by and large it was a friendlier place, and locals and foreigners exchanged views with a bit more respect. Many of us even met up face to face. Just to give you an idea: SMS used to be the cranky exception and now there's a herd gathered around him. And SMS, I hope you know I say this with respect and love

So your presumption as to what the site is about doesn't ring true for me. An expat forum does not need to be a bitchfest and even this one wasn't always like this.

Let me ask you a question - suppose you were a football fan, and suppose you supported liverpool. Would you then go on to a rival team's forum and complain when the people say bad things about liverpool?

Let me ask you a question - do you really view foreigners and locals as rivals? And if so, why adopt the model of football hooliganism instead of the more sportsmanlike and gentlemanly rivalry we see in say tennis?

My worldview is different, I guess - that foreigners here and locals co-exist for mutual benefit, and therefore would do well to respect and try to understand each other.

Anyway, this discussion probably won't lead to any good outcome so I'm just giving notice that I won't be responding to any of your replies to this post, which doesn't mean that I stand down (I learnt from JR8 that I have to make this clear). Also I won't have a computer for the next two weeks so you can enjoy bitching without any danger of a response from me

[saturdaynitespecial]

Well, it's a global phenomenon then......with the westerners being more decadent and more self indulgent than S'poreans.

SINGAPOREANS who are prepared to go into heavy debt
for 30yrs buying grossly over-valued leased properties
and forking out $50,000+ for COEs have to spend their
whole lives working like a dog damaging their health
in the process and then going into more DEBT on hospital bills
ARE NOT very smart people.

Well, it's unfair to say Singaporeans are not very smart people in isolation without also adding that Americans, Greeks, the Irish, Portuguese, Brits all currently are causing themselves and others problems precisely for the same reason...... not living within their means, and competing with the Jones'.

HOWEVER, in those other countries the spending was done more by choice not quite through necessity. Locals have little choice but to buy into the (still overpriced) HDB system and for just as many, owning a car is not a luxury - I know I need mine. The problem in the more 'Western' societies is still pretending to better than one's bank account can afford.

[Manthink]

Well, it's a global phenomenon then......with the westerners being more decadent and more self indulgent than S'poreans.

SINGAPOREANS who are prepared to go into heavy debt
for 30yrs buying grossly over-valued leased properties
and forking out $50,000+ for COEs have to spend their
whole lives working like a dog damaging their health
in the process and then going into more DEBT on hospital bills
ARE NOT very smart people.

Well, it's unfair to say Singaporeans are not very smart people in isolation without also adding that Americans, Greeks, the Irish, Portuguese, Brits all currently are causing themselves and others problems precisely for the same reason...... not living within their means, and competing with the Jones'.

HOWEVER, in those other countries the spending was done more by choice not quite through necessity. Locals have little choice but to buy into the (still overpriced) HDB system and for just as many, owning a car is not a luxury - I know I need mine. The problem in the more 'Western' societies is still pretending to better than one's bank account can afford.

An interesting response to Scooby's defence of the Singaporean.

It seems this thread have come full small circle now that westerners is just as "guilty".

IMO, sadly, this invisible vice of over-spending and poor financial discipline infects almost every city-dwellers today.

I place the blame squarely on unrelenting raise and promotion of modern consumerism.

[x9200]

UK (2006): 159%-164%
New Zealand (2008): 160%-181%
Canada (1Q 2011): 126%-147.3%
Malaysia (2010): 140.4%
US (2007): 123%-138%
Singapore (2009): 105.3%
Thailand (2009): 52.7%

By the way, I'll be on a computer-less vacation for the next 2 weeks so you'll have to do any more googling yourself

Thank you, it looks much better but frankly I would not bother: I did not expect Singapore is here particularly bad at all. It is IMHO purely subjective mis-perception resulting from the tremendous overpricing of the mentioned goods, esp. the cars.

Have a nice vacations!

[poodlek]

Even though I know she won't reply to this, I have to note that I find it interesting that WIMH finds this forum to be anti-local. Yes there are still a few rather negative folks but as far as I have noticed there has mostly been interesting discussion of the differences between locals and foreigners (this thread being the exception-it seemed out to start something that never actually materialized). Yes foreigners find certain things annoying about locals' behavior, but I am certain that sentiment runs both ways and isn't something to get excited or defensive about. It is, however, interesting to talk about.

I'm going to posit a theory: local folks like WIMH and that guy who started the "accent" thread are a little hypersensitive to the type of straight talk that is typical of Americans in particular (notice he insinuated SMS was being mean, when all I saw was him giving his objective advice) and Westerners in general, because they are more used to the beat-around-the-bush, say-what-I-think-you-want-to-hear type of communication that is typical in Asia.

Singapore is a pretty good place. It's not perfect, though. If all we did here was talk about the good things about Singapore we'd end up sounding like the gahmen it's the bad things that are most interesting to discuss-so don't get upset that we like to hash it out. If we all thought Singapore was so horrible we wouldn't be here.

[longstebe]

SINGAPOREANS who are prepared to go into heavy debt
for 30yrs buying grossly over-valued leased properties
and forking out $50,000+ for COEs have to spend their
whole lives working like a dog damaging their health
in the process and then going into more DEBT on hospital bills
ARE NOT very smart people.

Well, it's unfair to say Singaporeans are not very smart people in isolation without also adding that Americans, Greeks, the Irish, Portuguese, Brits all currently are causing themselves and others problems precisely for the same reason...... not living within their means, and competing with the Jones'.

HOWEVER, in those other countries the spending was done more by choice not quite through necessity. Locals have little choice but to buy into the (still overpriced) HDB system and for just as many, owning a car is not a luxury - I know I need mine. The problem in the more 'Western' societies is still pretending to better than one's bank account can afford.

This.

[longstebe]

Let me ask you a question - do you really view foreigners and locals as rivals? And if so, why adopt the model of football hooliganism instead of the more sportsmanlike and gentlemanly rivalry we see in say tennis?

A little over the top I think.

[x9200]

WIMH does not act any different than we (these who criticize) do. It's a fatigue factor and we all are a bit hypoersensitive.

[sundaymorningstaple]

^^^^^

+1

In fact, WIMH has more longevity on this board than all but a handful here. I think she has acted above reproach in every thread she's ever been on. Decidedly with more decorum than I or anybody else here, give or take a few. I don't include myself in that handful.

[JayCee]

Let me ask you a question - do you really view foreigners and locals as rivals? And if so, why adopt the model of football hooliganism instead of the more sportsmanlike and gentlemanly rivalry we see in say tennis?

A little over the top I think.

Exactamundo. I notice she ignored some of my other points and went straight for the football hooliganism analogy too

Tells me all I need to know about her superior attitude to those she feels that are below her (an attitude she gives off in almost every thread I've seen her post on).

Enjoy your holiday WIMH, but be careful of all those nasty foreigners though