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Postby Brah » Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:12 am

Looks like Central Park, not sure which part
JR8 wrote:Ashford And Simpson - Solid (HQ)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPyMW1YkDZc

p.s. Brah, can you see where this vid is set? NYC. Central Park. An underpass under a cross-street. Is it by the zoo? No matter, just curious for kind of trivia reasons... :)

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Postby x9200 » Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:24 am

Brah wrote:For example, Renaissance went from - Can You Understand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC744nDaUr0

Live album version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gViaDC2Yfmw

....to this -Camera Camera: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr9iIjI7m_s

It could clearly be heard how unnatural for them was to put themselves into this new frame. Pop-Genesis is full of confidence. That's a part of their success I think. Also Annie's voice hardly fit this type of music. At best she could have landed somewhere near Kate Bush but dragging forward all the instruments of expression they used in P-R it was hardly possible.

Tuscany Album (2001):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSOO-G2NI8Q

It is interesting seeing they kind of tried to get back on track or at least fit into more suitable genre but is like missing all the depth. Age took also its toll on Annie's voice.



So...Prog deserved to die.....it just went out painfully

It was doomed to die because of this strange mix of sophistication with pompous ways of expression. The coming generation were not willing to accept it.

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Postby x9200 » Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:37 am

JR8 wrote:* I'm not sure if Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells was prog-rock (ok, no it wasn't) but maybe the final peak of self-indulgence. Producing an album where the artist spends 20 minutes (a whole album side).... doing dozens of interpretations of a single theme on different instruments, each of which he names out loud... 'Mandolin!', 'Glockenspiel!', ('Look at me, aren't I am genius!') ... a pretentious bubble ripe for the pricking.


He clearly liked this self-fascination around that time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCvz7uflMIU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CCf7gvm ... g&index=14

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Postby x9200 » Fri, 21 Dec 2012 12:30 pm

The Moody Blues:

Question
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmOZFAYeurY

Story In Your Eyes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbxz0IxFHeI

Tuesday Afternoon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPLWBhNW3FM

Veteran Cosmic Rocker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p5QfxYPokw (v.bad quality)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97p8a3L8dDw

I can still listen to their Album Keys of the Kingdom (1991) i.e. Say What You Mean (I/II) but beyond that, not really.

As for a P-R band they are all together pretty strange.

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Postby Brah » Fri, 21 Dec 2012 12:43 pm

It could clearly be heard how unnatural for them was to put themselves into this new frame. Pop-Genesis is full of confidence. That's a part of their success I think. Also Annie's voice hardly fit this type of music.
Agree and agree.

Tuscany Album (2001): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSOO-G2NI8Q
It is interesting seeing they kind of tried to get back on track or at least fit into more suitable genre but is like missing all the depth. Age took also its toll on Annie's voice.

I picked up Tuscany a couple of years ago, but nothing I remember stood out.

So...Prog deserved to die.....it just went out painfully
It was doomed to die because of this strange mix of sophistication with pompous ways of expression.
Well, while this is true in some cases, I would argue that in some ways, Prog is/was more like Classical music, but for Rock listeners.

Classical Music, some of which could be deemed self-indulgent, is historically and by design longer works in multiple movements. For Prog to attempt to remain viable in ever-increasing commercial realm, would be counter to its roots.

The coming generation were not willing to accept it.
Agree for those who might have lumped Prog in with other, more pop-oriented forms in similar venues or airwaves. Plus, by the late 70s its day was pretty much done, and the creativity that Prog once monopolized (I think) started coming out in late-70s - early-80s New Wave music.

For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy6cxv40OWU

It's kinda like food - time and place for each. For example, much as I like it, I generally would not want to hear Prog in a bar or a club.

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Postby x9200 » Fri, 21 Dec 2012 1:41 pm

Brah wrote:So...Prog deserved to die.....it just went out painfully
It was doomed to die because of this strange mix of sophistication with pompous ways of expression.
Well, while this is true in some cases, I would argue that in some ways, Prog is/was more like Classical music, but for Rock listeners.

You know what, I agree. I've just realized it is me. P-R is not the main-stream music.

For Prog to attempt to remain viable in ever-increasing commercial realm, would be counter to its roots.

How about Jazz? I can see similarities with P-R (improvisation i.e). Why is it still around? Do you think it's because of this:

It's kinda like food - time and place for each. For example, much as I like it, I generally would not want to hear Prog in a bar or a club.

It does no fit that's for sure


Plus, by the late 70s its day was pretty much done, and the creativity that Prog once monopolized (I think) started coming out in late-70s - early-80s New Wave music.

For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy6cxv40OWU

Wow. I never heard this one from Ultravox. Thanks and thanks for the Renaissance. I left Ashes Are Burning back in Europe and always forget to bring coming back to SG. Plus, this live video is much better than the album version with Annie vocalizing over large parts.


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Postby Brah » Fri, 21 Dec 2012 8:30 pm

x9200 wrote:How about Jazz? I can see similarities with P-R (improvisation i.e). Why is it still around?

Well this has some points - improvisation, composition, and audience.

For improvisation, I don't feel there is much improvisation in Prog outside of instrumental solos, which mainstream Rock has as well, just shorter. Whereas Jazz generally exploits the basic framework of the song in order to showcase solos and improvisation over the tonal structure.

Compositionally Prog and Jazz and Fusion share much more flexible and/or complex structures than mainstream Rock, and therefore have more constraints on radio airplay.

The difference is Jazz is, right or wrong, more highly-regarded* therefore has more leeway as people expect this and are not marketed or promoted in the same way as is Rock (which in many of its many forms, is essentially Pop music).

*for example, many people who don't know Jazz (or Classical) feel inadequate about it among those who do, and are more receptive to is because of the respect those in the know have for it, whereas Prog comes off like college student music.

I remember a girl I was dating in NYC wanted to go to a Jazz show, so I took her to see Tony Williams in a small jazz venue where we were 5 meters away from the band. The band were amazing, and while Tony had me on the edge of my seat his drumming was so lyrical, she was nodding off to sleep.


Audience is the challenge for Prog, as it sits between things like mainstream Rock, Jazz and Fusion, and right or wrong, Prog is more closely associated with Rock, and therefore may not be accepted by some Rock proponents, and for the same reason, is generally shunned by Jazz and Fusion aficionados.

There will always be a place for Jazz and Classical, whereas Fusion tends to wax and wane. Fusion was huge in the late 70s and early 80s with the likes of Return To Forever, Weather Report, Spirogyra, and others, but this kinda fell out of favor in the 90s.

As far as Prog not still being around, it really is.

Just like the Longboard surfing style of the 60s made a huge comeback in the 90s after becoming uncool during the shortboard revolution of the 70s and 80s, Prog reemerged as the Neo Prog movement, which is pretty big and widely accepted. Spock's Beard, Transatlantic, Porcupine Tree, The Tangent, The Flower Kings, Arena, IQ (who were basically around the whole time) are just some of the many who are currently thriving in that genre.

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Postby Brah » Fri, 21 Dec 2012 8:54 pm

Yes from - And You And I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-rdL2KkvzY#t=1m13s
...to this -It Can Happen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5W2IpVMw0E

JR8 wrote:AYAI.... This (Yes) is another band that apparently peaked before I’d even heard of them. It’s just over 10 minutes long hehehe [rolls eyes]. I lasted for 9, at which point it is like a stoner meandering around, playing for time.

ICH – First time I’ve heard this one I think. It’s quite poppy but it could grow on me. Wow his apparent default singing voice must be like a full octave above mine...

Things like "It Can Happen" make me gag, as does a lot of their later work, unfortunately. Just does not hold up to their baseline, but they did as good a job of riding out the 80s and 90s as any Prog band could.

AYAI is on what is probably the seminal Prog album, Close To The Edge, though some may argue it's In The Court Of The Crimson King as that supposedly started Prog. It's actually shorter than the album's namesake, which after a few listens, soon became not long enough for me!

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Postby Brah » Fri, 21 Dec 2012 8:59 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy6cxv40OWU
x9200 wrote:Wow. I never heard this one from Ultravox. Thanks and thanks for the Renaissance.

Good, glad you liked it and it's generally overlooked by those who only know Ultravox by their smarmy stuff like "Reap The Wild Wind", where it became hard to take them seriously since they were taking themselves way too seriously.

I think Conny Plank had a lot to do with their overall sound and concept.

The studio version is even better:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrSM9-RPkNs

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Postby JR8 » Sat, 22 Dec 2012 9:00 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKeIFfCdziE&feature=fvwp
Ewan Dobson - Machinery

Like.



p.s. Someone told me, he has autism or Aspergers or similar. Don't know. But maybe this contributes towards his '''quiet search for technical perfection'''.

X9... what say ah...

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Postby x9200 » Sat, 22 Dec 2012 11:16 am

Brah wrote:
x9200 wrote:How about Jazz? I can see similarities with P-R (improvisation i.e). Why is it still around?

Well this has some points - improvisation, composition, and audience.

For improvisation, I don't feel there is much improvisation in Prog outside of instrumental solos, which mainstream Rock has as well, just shorter.

Yes, but improvisations are generally about instrumental solos also in jazz.
This (Jan Akkerman, Hocus Pocus):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy-27U13 ... re=related
quoted by JR8 the other time.

Even if often these are not some "true" improvisation they very much sound like and P-R is full of them.


Whereas Jazz generally exploits the basic framework of the song in order to showcase solos and improvisation over the tonal structure.

Agreed but I also see it to large extent in P-R. Maybe improvisation is not the right word but exploitation of some basic framework over the tonal structure (if I understand this term correctly) seems pretty standard.

Compositionally Prog and Jazz and Fusion share much more flexible and/or complex structures than mainstream Rock, and therefore have more constraints on radio airplay.

The difference is Jazz is, right or wrong, more highly-regarded* therefore has more leeway as people expect this and are not marketed or promoted in the same way as is Rock (which in many of its many forms, is essentially Pop music).

I still think it may be largely practical and comes down to this simple reason that it goes well with a bar like atmosphere. It must be also much cheaper to arrange it in such venues than in a concert hall or on a bigger stage.
Classical of course not that much but a fiddle string quartet with piano occasionally playing (or used to) in the Town Fullerton restaurant during the Sunday brunches was a really nice addition. The Classical got the strength of maturity including the audience so it is a different class alltohether.


*for example, many people who don't know Jazz (or Classical) feel inadequate about it among those who do, and are more receptive to is because of the respect those in the know have for it, whereas Prog comes off like college student music.

Yes, this is undoubtedly also a factor.


[..]
As far as Prog not still being around, it really is.

Just like the Longboard surfing style of the 60s made a huge comeback in the 90s after becoming uncool during the shortboard revolution of the 70s and 80s, Prog reemerged as the Neo Prog movement, which is pretty big and widely accepted. Spock's Beard, Transatlantic, Porcupine Tree, The Tangent, The Flower Kings, Arena, IQ (who were basically around the whole time) are just some of the many who are currently thriving in that genre.

This is the thing that always makes me feel good - so many things to explore yet to be discovered.


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Postby x9200 » Sat, 22 Dec 2012 11:18 am

JR8 wrote:X9... what say ah...

I think I owe you at least one good beer.

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Postby Brah » Sat, 22 Dec 2012 1:09 pm

x9200 wrote:The Moody Blues: The Question, Story In Your Eyes, Tuesday Afternoon:

Yes! That was some of the good stuff. Well....I could have a whole separate thread on the Moodies...a big part of my musical formative years. But it was a little weird getting into them, they were a generation and a half before me, more like my cool older uncle's music and era.

x9200 wrote:Veteran Cosmic Rocker http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97p8a3L8dDw

I can still listen to their Album Keys of the Kingdom (1991) i.e. Say What You Mean (I/II) but beyond that, not really.

I was a fan up to Seventh Sojourn, after that they sounded like they were making too much effort to stay relevant. One has to take them in the context of their times, they were actually an early-mid 60s band who were creatively ahead of their time, but by the late 70s didn't really fit in as well.

The Blue Jays were a good follow-up, and that was 3 years later after Seventh Sojourn.

I never heard Veteran Cosmic Rocker, today was the first time.

x9200 wrote:As for a P-R band they are all together pretty strange.

This is where the term Prog Rock starts getting diverse, as there are many flavors, and I think I'd consider the Moody Blues to be Prog, but more on the Art Rock side. As these are very subjective classifications there is no definitive for these, and, many bands fall into multiple classifications.

For me they fell into 3 categories: the trippy stuff, like
Have You Heard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1IkAyT_R2w
and Legend of a Mind http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_TbovyVOzs,

and the Rock hits, like your three at the top plus where many of us first got exposed to them, I'm Just A Singer In A Rock and Roll Band: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGo-_u7dfBQ which still works.

Some was a bit too melancholy but they had some nice Soft Rock songs.

Justin Hayward has a really distinctive, simultaneously raspy and sweet guitar sound that really cut through, like on You and Me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7UZ5oVYmb8

and Higher and Higher: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChCbewCAk-o#t=1m20s

I think a lot of has to do with his Gibson 335, which is not a solid body, and his choice of fuzzbox.

Not to mention what they did by using Mellotrons so effectively.

Days Of Future Passed is a Desert Island Record*, and a magnificent production.

*Could be a sub-thread

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Postby Brah » Sat, 22 Dec 2012 1:50 pm

A bit of a diversion from the more recent posts, came across this band after hearing them in store in Singapore (!).

They are relatively new, but could have just as easily be a hit as an 80s New Wave band, they'd have fit right in. Been meaning to post this for a few months.

Metric - Satellite Mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIOA8ERd_Jc

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Postby Brah » Sat, 22 Dec 2012 2:10 pm

JR8 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKeIFfCdziE&feature=fvwp
Ewan Dobson - Machinery
Like.

X9... what say ah...

If you liked that, you might like this: Barry Flanagan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG6MJ4RJiOY

The studio version (dumb video) but more the essence of the song, whereas the above clip is the masterful Barry improvising: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtqqHchtP0E

Used this on our wedding day.


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