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Postby JR8 » Thu, 20 Dec 2012 4:52 am

Sex Pistols - Anarchy In The UK (Broadcast Debut)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8szRgIcYlY

I'm pondering if there has ever been another band who (arguably) had such a dramatic and lasting impact on the music scene, who were so ... apparently without any notable talent at playing their own instruments.

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 20 Dec 2012 5:00 am

Greenslade-Drowning man
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIILrs8zmMc

This track is how I first got into Greenslade :)

Sweet early 70s Prog.

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 20 Dec 2012 5:41 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij4gc8iBDaI
Santana - Black Magic Woman 1971

To me Carlos Santana is an example of a musician with technical brilliance, that thoroughly lacks soul. (Strange, not what you expect from a Hispanic.)

Does he smile, does he improvise, does he engage with his audience.

I wonder why they had so many fans.

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Postby Brah » Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:55 am

Thanks for that, it was quite pleasant. I've heard of Greenslade, but never heard them. Roger Dean did their album cover art, who did many of the early-mid Yes album covers, back when this was an art...

Nice early, pre-synthesizer Hammond Prog, not unlike Flash or early Yes.

I will check out more of their stuff, they go on the ever-growing checkout list.

JR8 wrote:Greenslade-Drowning man
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIILrs8zmMc

This track is how I first got into Greenslade :)

Sweet early 70s Prog.

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Postby Brah » Thu, 20 Dec 2012 11:35 am

Prog Rock before the whole thing, er, tripped over it's bell-bottoms and went head-first down the toilet of it's own self-indulgence and making.*
The term "self-indulgence" is the most-often descriptor used by Prog detractors, but I see it as generally a Good Thing, in that they did not rely on traditional musical formats, structures, sounds or sometimes instrumentation, and were more creative as a result. Some was meandering nonsense, others created musical journey masterpieces.

It was the late 70s / early 80s mass commercialism of music which killed Prog. And there was no shortage of vapid commercial Rock outfits like Asia and many more in what was played on the radio ad infinitum. And there were a few musical responses to that worth posting if I have the time, from Rundgren to Zappa to The Buggles.

Some of the Prog masters, such as Yes, ELP, Renaissance, Gentle Giant, and others, unsuccessfully tried to prostitute themselves into the new formats, embarrassing themselves before completely fading out as Rock dinosaurs. Maybe I should site some examples, hard to listen to as they may be.

Others, like Genesis, made the transition though at the expense of their former diehard fans, before becoming a totally Pop Rock entity.

Don't get me wrong I enjoy a lot of prog-rock including this track/album. However I recall the seemingly endless aons between 'The late-hippy era', (say ended 72/73) and arrival of punk in '76.
I think Prog's Golden Years were from 68-75, with 73-74 as the pinnacle. That captures things like Wish You Were Here, Dark Side Of The Moon, Relayer, Close To The Edge, Trilogy, Brain Salad Surgery, and the like.

Now thankfully we have the Neo Prog movement since the early '00s and there is a lot of good stuff coming from there.

3 years of Abba is a lifetime for a young nipper who loves music lol.
3 minutes of Abba is a lifetime.

I was not into Punk much, but recognized its place and impact on music. And while I never really cared for the Pistols, they have one of if not the foremost positions in the movement. I remember Johnny Rotten parading his "I Hate Pink Floyd" tee shirt.

At first my ilk and me considered them 'no-talents' and didn't get the rage thing. But we were a critical group, and disliked what was passing as "good music" like REO Speedwagon or "good musicians" like Gary Richrath or even worse Kevin Cronin, in favor or "real music" like The Dixie Dregs or "real musicians" like Robin Trower.

Later they made a mark for themselves and music as we knew it changed as a result, and resulting in new forms like Rap and others.

Actually I'd never heard of Greenslade until I lived in Japan. I think the JPnese must have bought out the rights to them. Their albums are all with sleeve-notes in JPnese.
I never heard of them while there.

* I'm not sure if Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells was prog-rock (ok, no it wasn't) but maybe the final peak of self-indulgence. Producing an album where the artist spends 20 minutes (a whole album side).... doing dozens of interpretations of a single theme on different instruments, each of which he names out loud... 'Mandolin!', 'Glockenspiel!', ('Look at me, aren't I am genius!') ... a pretentious bubble ripe for the pricking
Nor I, though many do; for me he was on the periphery but then Prog is a very subjective term with many subgenus-es. I personally thought he was overrated and that there were other, more significant works worthy of the level of exposure his received.
Last edited by Brah on Thu, 20 Dec 2012 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Brah » Thu, 20 Dec 2012 12:10 pm

Brah wrote:It was the late 70s / early 80s mass commercialism of music which killed Prog...Some of the Prog masters, such as Yes, ELP, Renaissance, Gentle Giant, and others, unsuccessfully tried to prostitute themselves into the new formats, embarrassing themselves before completely fading out as Rock dinosaurs.

For example, Renaissance went from - Can You Understand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC744nDaUr0

Live album version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gViaDC2Yfmw

....to this -Camera Camera: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr9iIjI7m_s


ELP from - Trilogy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt-sfNULEzE

....to this - Love Beach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cM1ab-i4h4


Genesis from -One for the Vine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKXkZWIIEiU

...to this - Invisible Touch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epOBenUjIHw


Yes from - And You And I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-rdL2KkvzY#t=1m13s

...to this -It Can Happen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5W2IpVMw0E

So...Prog deserved to die.....it just went out painfully

-----------------------------------------
Full show of Renaissance at their peak:
Sight & Sound BBC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJM3Mb6dVUk

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Postby Brah » Thu, 20 Dec 2012 12:55 pm

Wasn't sure if you were taking the piss but watching that I'd tend to agree, it's not a good version. Carlos has no shortage of soul, this is a better clip of the same thing, and I think best album: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRM1ancpQd0

JR8 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij4gc8iBDaI
Santana - Black Magic Woman 1971

To me Carlos Santana is an example of a musician with technical brilliance, that thoroughly lacks soul. (Strange, not what you expect from a Hispanic.)

Does he smile, does he improvise, does he engage with his audience.

I wonder why they had so many fans.

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 21 Dec 2012 12:50 am

For example, Renaissance went from - Can You Understand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC744nDaUr0
Live album version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gViaDC2Yfmw
....to this -Camera Camera: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr9iIjI7m_s

Wow, brilliant Brah! This is why I love this topic, I get to hear bands I’ve never heard of before. The vocalist reminds me of Steeleye Span (as in, ‘Modern Folk’ style). The whole (studio version) has something of a Jethro Tull feel to it . The live version is very nicely rendered... great piano/bass hook! Yes I could really get to like them. Camera Camera ... wow can she sing [nodding!!]! Reminds me a bit of Supertramp for some reason, and her vocal prowess of Kate Bush. It goes through a whole set of different ‘chapters’ of feels and styles. It seems compositionally very complex.


ELP from - Trilogy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt-sfNULEzE
....to this - Love Beach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cM1ab-i4h4

Trilogy, 9 minutes hehehe... so they weren’t expecting it to appear on any jukebox then I hadn’t realised Greg Lake had such a high pitched voice (re: opening minute or so). Wow... it really kicks off at 3:20.... liking it! The keyboardist is on fire.
re: Love Beach. Unfortunately I can’t open that link (as I might have said where I am blocks quite a lot of music on YT due to music rights). And try as I may, I can usually find an alt version in such circumstances, but this time I can’t. Not to worry. What I will say is my previous knowledge of ELP was having a double? album of theirs with a almost completely black sleeve. No idea what that was. Maybe ‘Fanfare for the common man’ or something, er er 'Pictures at an exhibition' maybe? And apart from that Greg Lake doing a searing number under his own name c.78-80?, called ‘Nuclear attack’ or assault. That was not my usual style by that age but – oh yes - I really liked that one...


Genesis from -One for the Vine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKXkZWIIEiU
...to this - Invisible Touch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epOBenUjIHw

OFTV. Interesting. I don’t know what it is about him (PC) but his voice just turns me instantly off. I think it is that when they were big I was into diametrically opposite stuff, and big bands like that were considered, well, sold-out $whores. And such an involuntary tribal gut-feel is hard to try and see beyond (even now.... funny that, I reeeeeally try to be open minded now but some things it’s just ‘Ohhhhh’ no not THEM: Computer says no!’]). Finally gets a bit more engaging (and thought provoking) @ c4:30 – 6:30. 6:30-7:15 they sound (to me) like they’ve just run out of ideas. I hope you don’t mind but I called it a day at 8:00... just too rudderless by then - for me.
Invisible Touch, I had to squint as I clicked that one as I know it. His voice seems more agile though! It’s just that it’s a bit too ‘big-commercial-pop’ to me...


Yes from - And You And I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-rdL2KkvzY#t=1m13s
...to this -It Can Happen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5W2IpVMw0E

AYAI.... I was thinking, man these vocals are so distinctive, they remind me of something. And of course (I Wiki’d it) it’s Jon and Vangelis. This (Yes) is another band that apparently peaked before I’d even heard of them. It’s just over 10 minutes long hehehe [rolls eyes]. I lasted for 9, at which point it is like a stoner meandering around, playing for time.
ICH – First time I’ve heard this one I think. It’s quite poppy but it could grow on me. Wow his apparent default singing voice must be like a full octave above mine...

So...Prog deserved to die.....it just went out painfully

-----------------------------------------
Full show of Renaissance at their peak:
Sight & Sound BBC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJM3Mb6dVUk

Thank you very much Brah, I will put this last link on in the background, and if it is as thought-provoking as that linked above I’m sure I’ll enjoy and/or learn from it. Fascinating case you make there to demonstrate ‘The death of Prog...’

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 21 Dec 2012 1:14 am

Brah wrote:Wasn't sure if you were taking the piss but watching that I'd tend to agree, it's not a good version. Carlos has no shortage of soul, this is a better clip of the same thing, and I think best album: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRM1ancpQd0


Damn a link I can't open, and cannot find another version of.

What I did find was ...

Santana (Sacred Fire 1993) - Open Invitation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9nXA50eUXg

Serious blast from the past this one! :)

This song was played - literally - to me as a last act of desperation by my very first girlfriend to try to finally drive it home ... 'Yes, come on then, you're terribly gentlemanly but it's ok, you CAN make your move now!' :)


p.s. I take your point. I think my memory of Santana is discoloured by a childhood friend who loved them, and played them (technically very well, but completely coldy [he'd already passed something like 'Grade 8...9 what-ever on piano and guitar]) on the Les Paul (sunburst w/ gold plated pick-ups etc) his mostly absent 'daddy' bought him aged about 11. Even 25 years later I spent less buying my car than that gittar cost... [a-ha, nodding] [sigh!]

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 21 Dec 2012 3:40 am

'FUNKADELIC - Maggot Brain (Eddie Hazel & Michael Hampton, Maryland 198'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXq4GlHgROQ

This was the studio version I first heard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh3bleXWaCk

It's not actually Funkadelic really, but their pre-cursor Parliament. I still find this track amazingly and rather inexplicably moving. Yeah there will be reasons, 4-chord song kinda loaded under nostalgia... etc... ?

Now, where's my copy of 'One nation under a groove'? :)

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 21 Dec 2012 4:58 am

Funkadelic - One Nation Under A Groove
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4supWXaFgbc


A decidedly brief version at 3:25! I seem to recall the original was at least 8m, or maybe more. I had the Funakdelic album.... maybe the whole thing was one track... who knows...

Gotta love these crazy cats outfit's. George Clinton's fox-pelts..... Ow!!

:)

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 21 Dec 2012 5:04 am

Ashford And Simpson - Solid (HQ)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPyMW1YkDZc


A classic and most fun karaoke tune. Great 'standard' pop song on one side: on the flipside you reckon it's simple until you try it and realise that those soaring vocals are haaaaard*! :)



* i,e, you can't do them :)

p.s. Brah, can you see where this vid is set? NYC. Central Park. An underpass under a cross-street. Is it by the zoo? No matter, just curious for kind of trivia reasons... :)

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 21 Dec 2012 5:51 am

Dionne Warwick - Walk on By (Pebble Mill 1984)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07cS50j46T0
---------------------------------------------------------


That voice...... just wow! :o





p.s
An earlier version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ63MCd7jPE
Walk on By.
Wow *2

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Postby Brah » Fri, 21 Dec 2012 10:14 am

For example, Renaissance went from - Can You Understand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC744nDaUr0
Live album version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gViaDC2Yfmw
....to this -Camera Camera: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr9iIjI7m_s

Wow, brilliant Brah! This is why I love this topic, I get to hear bands I’ve never heard of before. The vocalist reminds me of Steeleye Span (as in, ‘Modern Folk’ style). The whole (studio version) has something of a Jethro Tull feel to it . The live version is very nicely rendered... great piano/bass hook! Yes I could really get to like them. Camera Camera ... wow can she sing [nodding!!]! Reminds me a bit of Supertramp for some reason, and her vocal prowess of Kate Bush. It goes through a whole set of different ‘chapters’ of feels and styles. It seems compositionally very complex.

Annie Haslam arguably has the best voice in Rock music, period. Bold statement but not many singers were trained in Opera and have her range or control, I forget how many octaves she can hit.
This kind of captures it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWdf-ovuGoY

Renaissance started as a totally different group of people with Keith Relf (Yardbirds) and doing similar music but nowhere near as well, and later reformed as this band.

They took cues from existing Classical music and turned them into Prog Rock pieces, though much of their stuff is original.

I would personally pass on anything of theirs from the 80s or at least until after wearing-out the earlier work leaves one needing more.

The best album to start with is Live at Carnegie Hall, a 2-disc compilation of most of their best works performed in one concert.

I always thought they were part of the Canterbury Scene but seems related but not really part of that. While I don't know Steeleye Span's music I knew of them, and also thought they were Canterbury, but weren't; Tull could have been but weren't either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canterbury_scene

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Postby Brah » Fri, 21 Dec 2012 10:45 am

ELP from - Trilogy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt-sfNULEzE
....to this - Love Beach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cM1ab-i4h4

Trilogy, 9 minutes hehehe... so they weren’t expecting it to appear on any jukebox then I hadn’t realised Greg Lake had such a high pitched voice (re: opening minute or so). Wow... it really kicks off at 3:20.... liking it! The keyboardist is on fire.

That, and the other long one on that album, are probably their best stuff - long, but well developed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBYPae7sd3k

Well, that is what one gets with Prog - usually long or very long pieces, with few under 4 minutes. Which alters the listening approach, and didn't make it viable for radio play. Most of the music I like the most are long pieces.

I always thought Lake's voice was great, and complimented Emerson's virtuosity.

re: Love Beach. Unfortunately I can’t open that link (as I might have said where I am blocks quite a lot of music on YT due to music rights). And try as I may, I can usually find an alt version in such circumstances, but this time I can’t. Not to worry.
It's ok, it's only there to contrast from great to crap, it's so bad it's laughable, as are all of the "To this:" tracks above. That one is probably the worst.

What I will say is my previous knowledge of ELP was having a double? album of theirs with a almost completely black sleeve. No idea what that was. Maybe ‘Fanfare for the common man’ or something, er er 'Pictures at an exhibition' maybe? And apart from that Greg Lake doing a searing number under his own name c.78-80?, called ‘Nuclear attack’ or assault. That was not my usual style by that age but – oh yes - I really liked that one...
I never had their compilations as their albums were album-oriented and had a flow from start to finish, and I rarely agree with what gets put on compilations, plus they are limited in the overall playing length. Fanfare was on it, not sure which other albums. The best version is them playing in some stadium in the middle of winter.


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