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Postby JR8 » Sat, 24 Nov 2012 2:07 am

I'd be interested to see if it is actually a quotation from a famous work

No I don't think so. I am referring to a TV series that the philosopher de Botton made about music for the BBC. He described various compositional devices that 'hook you', and why it happens. I recall afterwards considering writing the 'perfect' (compositionally, and hence addictively) rock song keyboard piece.



Ultravox - a big fan when Vienna came out, which was a groundbreaking release,

Well maybe, but in retrospect it was awfully dour (were they Scottish.... well that will explain why then)

then got into their back catalog which is not unlike pre-English Settlement XTC in rawness and punk; after Vienna they started taking themselves too seriously

Didn't all 'New Romantics' barring perhaps Duran Duran? That to me was the downfall, they took themselves way too seriously (esp. their clothes and looks), but weren't even very good.


or something and became silly melodramatic and overblown, probably taking down the New Romantic movement with them

Kajagoogoo - same era - some good songs (besides Too Shy) and excellent bass player

Can you link a good one then please?

Talking Heads - yes quality in many ways - artists as musicians, and one of those who successfully pulled off the African thing, along with Peter Gabriel, Paul Simon, King Crimson, and one or two others I can't think of at the moment

I've long smiled at the term 'musicians' musicians'. They are apparently bands who are SO sophisticated that only other professional musicians appreciate them. They used to say that (prob still do) about Depeche Mode. I wonder...

Todd Rundgren - one of the few, unlike as some claim Prince, Costello, Bowie, and a lot of others to be, I've always considered him a genius. This is a long, in-depth, and separate conversation, and really requires being familiar with all or most of his music and productions. But trust me on this.

Why does one need a deep conversation in order to appreciate a talented artist? Surely you just like them or you don't?

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Postby Brah » Sat, 24 Nov 2012 2:02 pm

No I don't think so. I am referring to a TV series that the philosopher de Botton made about music for the BBC. He described various compositional devices that 'hook you', and why it happens. I recall afterwards considering writing the 'perfect' (compositionally, and hence addictively) rock song keyboard piece.
Well that would be interesting if you can find it, there are a lot of good BBC documentaries on YT, I saw a good one on the Synth Pop movement.

Kajagoogoo - same era - some good songs (besides Too Shy) and excellent bass player
Can you link a good one then please?
Well that was a bit of an adventure - hard to find ones that show Nick Beggs playing without shots of the useless Limahl getting in way - I listen to these guys for Beggs' voice and playing more than anything else. But this was the 80s when music videos were usually silly. Not great examples but there's not a lot of good stuff out there I could find...

Plays Stick on this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bghN_pD-QfA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfpE8i15RYg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdUUwRdI6ms

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84PHjEKX2G0


I've long smiled at the term 'musicians' musicians'. They are apparently bands who are SO sophisticated that only other professional musicians appreciate them. They used to say that (prob still do) about Depeche Mode. I wonder...
I personally would never describe Depeche Mode that way, I see them as a seminal New Wave band for their music but not musicianship.

The term "musicians' musician" makes me think more of people like Steve Morse from The Dregs or Jeff Beck or Jan Hammer or Eric Johnson - artists with strong compositional talent, improvisational talent, diversity and technical talent, with styles so trademark that they have their own 'sound' and stand alone in their own well-defined place. Sometimes stuff that bores the ladies and makes guys jaws drop in amazement. It probably means different things to different people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15eu7ar5EKM&

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WASO67tz4RI#t=4m08s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW73VIz7ctU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL8aeeSTthQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB3CPoXc8l4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smwQafhNU6E&

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0QMGNYD5rI

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Rundgren - really requires being familiar with all or most of his music and productions. But trust me on this.
Why does one need a deep conversation in order to appreciate a talented artist? Surely you just like them or you don't?

The subthread was mostly about New Wave and Todd and / or Utopia don't fit in well there. He's got a lot of very diverse stuff, morphed over the years, and is a producer (he 'made' Mearloaf so successful, produced the controversial Skylarking by XTC, a lot of Hall and Oates stuff, many others), writes pop music. leading a Prog Rock band, lead a Rock band, did some experimental and electronic stuff - it would take time to read his lyrics and see where he's coming from, which is often pretty deep and very humanistic. I wouldn't know where to start except from the beginning and work up to the mid-80s when I guess I stopped listening to his new stuff but the old is timeless. One of those acts that can be amazing or kinda iffy live, depending on the concert.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVatBy_4GpM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLeCB7Kn-VE&

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr8tRHwe1zc&

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76xoMmIIJro&

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfTNCsrqfsM&
http://vimeo.com/22115067

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Postby Mi Amigo » Sat, 24 Nov 2012 8:26 pm

Wow, that's a lot of clips there; I'll be interested to look through them over the coming days.

Oh yeah, Todd Rundgren. Let me type that again: Todd Rundgren. If ever there was a seriously under-appreciated, under-acknowledged artist then surely it is he.

Brah, here's the Little Feat track I mentioned yesterday evening, so you don't have to search for it:

Rock & Roll Doctor‬ (1977)

"Two degrees in bebop, a PhD in swing, he's a master of rhythm he's a rock n' roll king." Oh yes. And that clip is just from the sound check, so the show itself must have been superb. Did you say you had the Rockpalast show on video? I seem to remember that Dallas Alice came up in the conversation at some point last night, in reference to:

Willin' - Live 1977

Seems to be from the aforementioned Rockpalast show. That was about a year after I saw them play on the same bill as The Who at Charlton Athletic football ground in London. What a day that was - a fundamental part of my musical education, no doubt about that.

God bless you, Lowell George.

OK, just one more that popped up on YouTube:

Dixie Chicken (with Emmylou Harris & Bonnie Raitt) Live 1977
Be careful what you wish for

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Postby JR8 » Sat, 24 Nov 2012 11:27 pm

Brah wrote:Well that would be interesting if you can find it, there are a lot of good BBC documentaries on YT, I saw a good one on the Synth Pop movement.

No joy so far I'm afraid. But it seems that the structural hook is not unique. Have a look at this amusing and informative comedy clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pidokakU4I
Axis of Awesome - 4 Four Chord Song (with song titles)

Now I'm not completely sure, but note in the above's Comment section from today no less...
Q.'Is this also Pachelbel's Canon?
A. It's the first four chords of the 8 chord Pachelbel Canon progression, yes.'

So when I mentioned Pachelbel earlier in this thread I was on the right trail it seems!

Thanks for all the YT links, I look forward to giving them an airing when my wife is next out :)



I personally would never describe Depeche Mode that way, I see them as a seminal New Wave band for their music but not musicianship.

Well I think it might just come down to our respective definitions of New Wave. Even Wikipedia seems confused, suggesting the the New York Dolls were New Wave (when they surely should be considered as a 'foundation stone of punk'). As for Depeche Mode.... I wouldn't consider them New Wave, they started out as New Romantics (IIRC).

p.s. I was never into Depeche Mode until my wife got tickets to see them play Madison Square Garden. I've been to many concerts (certainly 100 in my university years alone) but it not often that I have witnessed a band working an audience quite so effectively. You couldn't help but admire them for the show that night ... seriously polished.



The term "musicians' musician" makes me think more of people like Steve Morse from The Dregs or Jeff Beck or Jan Hammer or Eric Johnson - artists with strong compositional talent, improvisational talent, diversity and technical talent, with styles so trademark that they have their own 'sound' and stand alone in their own well-defined place. Sometimes stuff that bores the ladies and makes guys jaws drop in amazement. It probably means different things to different people.

[More links I'll follow in due course]

Technically talented and a trademark style would seem to fit the bill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6T9qp9XbRY
robert wyatt - shipbuilding

Now how on earth can you be as talented as the above and never chart. He is (to me) a good example of a musicians' musician. * Check out the Comments section, OMG I literally was laughing out loud :-D



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The subthread was mostly about New Wave and Todd and / or Utopia don't fit in well there. He's got a lot of very diverse stuff, morphed over the years, and is a producer (he 'made' Mearloaf so successful, produced the controversial Skylarking by XTC, a lot of Hall and Oates stuff, many others), writes pop music. leading a Prog Rock band, lead a Rock band, did some experimental and electronic stuff - it would take time to read his lyrics and see where he's coming from, which is often pretty deep and very humanistic. I wouldn't know where to start except from the beginning and work up to the mid-80s when I guess I stopped listening to his new stuff but the old is timeless. One of those acts that can be amazing or kinda iffy live, depending on the concert.

[More links and once again thank-you very much for going to the trouble of posting all the links.... honestly appreciated!]




Edited to add *

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Postby JR8 » Sun, 25 Nov 2012 6:19 am

CAPTAIN BEEFHEART - I'm Gonna Booglarize You Baby (1972)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBxt9jbN ... re=related

Check out this, brilliant, and another example of a band I'd call musician's musicians.

I'm wondering if Zappa goes in the same category, you know, musically brilliant (I could perhaps be persuaded that he was a 'genius' given his immense and original creativity) but simply not a charting or mainstream musician.

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Postby Brah » Sun, 25 Nov 2012 10:32 am

Mi Amigo wrote:Wow, that's a lot of clips there; I'll be interested to look through them over the coming days.
It was therapy for me to find and hear them, most I haven't heard ever or in years, and assisted my coffee in making me wake up yesterday


Oh yeah, Todd Rundgren. Let me type that again: Todd Rundgren. If ever there was a seriously under-appreciated, under-acknowledged artist then surely it is he.
Good to see I'm not alone in this. I spent a lot of time going through his stuff yesterday, there's just so much and not only liking the music, but the very positive effect it has, which I kinda needed.

Brah, here's the Little Feat track I mentioned yesterday evening, so you don't have to search for it:Rock & Roll Doctor‬ (1977)
Thanks for this nice way to start the day, I always feel good after hearing me some Feat, they are, as they say, the sh!t

"Two degrees in bebop, a PhD in swing, he's a master of rhythm he's a rock n' roll king." Oh yes. And that clip is just from the sound check, so the show itself must have been superb. Did you say you had the Rockpalast show on video?
Yes, I have the DVD, happy to lend it to you, the whole show is very good

I seem to remember that Dallas Alice came up in the conversation at some point last night, in reference to: Willin' - Live 1977
Yes, from Willin', but at the time I was also trying to get the other Dallas Alice reference I knew, figured it out here - WARNING: Country Music, which I know some people don't like, but I do. There's no YT video for it but this Amazon has the excerpt: White Palace

It's by Clay Walker, who I learned about from the movie The Thing Called Love, which is worth a watch, about budding songwriters coming to Nashville to make it big. Walker had a hit on that movie and I bought first the soundtrack to the movie, then his album. Wore it out driving from Tokyo to Chiba when going surfing on weekends. That song is on TY: Dreaming With My Eyes Open

Seems to be from the aforementioned Rockpalast show. That was about a year after I saw them play on the same bill as The Who at Charlton Athletic football ground in London. What a day that was - a fundamental part of my musical education, no doubt about that.
Odd combination but must have been a great show. "Tommy" was my very first album, BTW

God bless you, Lowell George.
Yeah, Little Feat were the best with him, but they did some great stuff after he died. Like the Let It Roll album, the whole thing is good.

OK, just one more that popped up on YouTube: Dixie Chicken (with Emmylou Harris & Bonnie Raitt) Live 1977
That's a great clip of that song, shorter without the jam at the transition in other songs like they usually did. I think Emmylou was a bit intimidated by Bonnie in that for some reason, she didn't know the lyrics as well. You know Lowell taught Bonnie how to play slide guitar, right? She always honours Little Feat in her music.

All this country-ish (Feat are more New Orleans than Country, but there is a connection) had me going to my go-to pedal steel song, one of those few magic things you can hear a thousand times and not get tired of it: The Wheel

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Postby Brah » Sun, 25 Nov 2012 11:05 am

Well I think it might just come down to our respective definitions of New Wave. Even Wikipedia seems confused, suggesting the the New York Dolls were New Wave (when they surely should be considered as a 'foundation stone of punk'). As for Depeche Mode.... I wouldn't consider them New Wave, they started out as New Romantics (IIRC).
No way were the Dolls New Wave, they were Punk and / or proto-Punk, maybe Glam. I wasn't into the Dolls so I don't remember if they came out before or after Glam, and when I think of Glam I think of Slade, I had their first album, and to a lesser degree, Mott The Hoople.

For things like the New Romantics, I always, right or wrong, considered that as one of the many genuses of New Wave, as Synth-Pop, The African stuff, and I wonder if there is actually a list or family tree.

I recently found a Prog Rock family tree, but I didn't agree with a lot of it.

p.s. I was never into Depeche Mode until my wife got tickets to see them play Madison Square Garden. I've been to many concerts (certainly 100 in my university years alone) but it not often that I have witnessed a band working an audience quite so effectively. You couldn't help but admire them for the show that night ... seriously polished.
For that I would say they were great performers. Live music production is getting much better than the bare-bones rock concerts of the 70s (except for early Pink Floyd and the like). In a similar vein, The Thompson Twins were not great musicians or singers (though they had a good bass player on a couple albums, who wore a cool Clint Eastwood hat silhouetted in the background when they played live), but they put on great shows.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6T9qp9XbRY
robert wyatt - shipbuilding

Now how on earth can you be as talented as the above and never chart. He is (to me) a good example of a musicians' musician. * Check out the Comments section, OMG I literally was laughing out loud :-D

Thanks for that introduction - another one of those names I've heard but never checked out. For example, I had a friend who was a huge Bruce Cockburn fan, who I haven't got around to checking out yet.

[More links and once again thank-you very much for going to the trouble of posting all the links.... honestly appreciated!]
It was much-needed and enjoyable for me, this is how we all learn of those things that are out there but the radio stations etc. don't promote so we have to rely on word-of-mouth, and more and more that's the better stuff.

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 26 Nov 2012 4:20 am

Brah wrote:No way were the Dolls New Wave, they were Punk and / or proto-Punk, maybe Glam.

Yes I concur. Proto-punk was the genre that came to mind too with like a glam cross-over*. Similar (but from a different angle and minus the glam lol) as Patti Smith... you know, directly expressing anger rather than veiling it within obscure lyrics (Neil Young et all).

Check out the platforms, big hair and little bolero jackets!*... groovy man ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctg5FCS1wCM
New York Dolls - Personality Crisis


I wasn't into the Dolls so I don't remember if they came out before or after Glam, and when I think of Glam I think of Slade, I had their first album, and to a lesser degree, Mott The Hoople.

Glam, if I had to name a year I'd say 1974. Prog had it's core (IMHO) 70/74. Glam (for me, top of my head) > Gary Glitter, Sweet, Mud, Kiss, Alvin Stardust, Kiss again, The Tubes, some Ozzy stuff is arguably glam too.. etc ... lol...

My first chart single was...

'This town ain't big enough for the both of us - The Sparks'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAzESJ62irI

Or Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds [aka LSD] by Elton John
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp_1zK5LpV8

Both c73/74.

To this day I have no idea what influenced me towards this kind of music... no family or friends that I can think of.


For things like the New Romantics, I always, right or wrong, considered that as one of the many genuses of New Wave, as Synth-Pop, The African stuff, and I wonder if there is actually a list or family tree.

Yeah I can see where you're coming from. You might consider it the later commercial end of new wave, i.e. shock, New Romantics can actually play an instrument.


I recently found a Prog Rock family tree, but I didn't agree with a lot of it.

They used to put those in the CD sleeves of prog rock albums that I used to buy in Tokyo back on the 90s. Wanna know how Greenslade is connected with King Crimson... well roll up a doobie bro and study this little CD album sleeve insert ;)

For that I would say they were great performers. Live music production is getting much better than the bare-bones rock concerts of the 70s (except for early Pink Floyd and the like). In a similar vein, The Thompson Twins were not great musicians or singers (though they had a good bass player on a couple albums, who wore a cool Clint Eastwood hat silhouetted in the background when they played live), but they put on great shows.

They were one of the bands I saw at uni, plus a band I liked. But more memorable were The Cramps, The Slits, Eek-a-Mouse, Linton Kwesi Johnson, Bad Manners, PIL, ABC, Orange Juice, Plasmatics, Slade (!), Death Cult (later the Cult)... and so on. A lot of 2nd and 3rd stringers, but it was only £3 or so a ticket... oh and the Simple Minds who were simply incredible that night...there is a lot to be said for smaller venues

Thanks for that introduction - another one of those names I've heard but never checked out. For example, I had a friend who was a huge Bruce Cockburn fan, who I haven't got around to checking out yet.

Nice too... I'd never heard of him! Just checked out Youtube, track #1 is accomplished (reminds me of Neil Young), but with a BIG left-wing heart on his sleeve... will look further, hope he's not always so in your face with the leftie politics though...

It was much-needed and enjoyable for me, this is how we all learn of those things that are out there but the radio stations etc. don't promote so we have to rely on word-of-mouth, and more and more that's the better stuff.

Well said, and thank you too!

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 27 Nov 2012 1:33 am

Meanwhle, in news just in from Holland...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5I8k5WQlfI
FRANK ZAPPA - WILLIE THE PIMP

Cap'n Beefheart 'jumps into bed' with Frank Zappa!

p.s. my God, I never knew they had performed together [far out man :o ]

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 27 Nov 2012 1:45 am

Captain Beefheart & Magic Band - Sure 'nuff 'n Yes I do
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCSPf5Vi ... watch-vrec

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 28 Nov 2012 12:52 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zASR-Arn ... ntext-vrec
The Stranglers Documentray Part 1

The Stranglers were a new wave band (some might call them punk, but no no, they were too refined for that).

It is always enlightening to see things from their perspective from the time, the other side of the divide.

and



JJ Burnel - The One Show - Feb 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olV_stpS ... =endscreen

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 28 Nov 2012 1:36 am

rebeca_smith wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ963I6BVao this is my favorite :)


Say goodbye to the friends you never made.

Bye bye!

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 29 Nov 2012 11:38 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy8Y3R4dXyc
"Golden Brown" - Mariachi Mexteca feat. Hugh Cornwell


This a completely nuts. I realise Hugh Cornwell left the Stranglers because he went soft. But here is a thing I've never heard before. Golden Brown performed by Cornwell backed by a band of Mariachis.

It is so off the wall I really don't know quite what to make of it!

:o :shock: :)

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Postby Brah » Fri, 30 Nov 2012 4:05 pm

Am remiss in following-up. Beefheart is yet another one of those I never listened to that is on the Go Back And Check list.

There is a connection and it made me think of Zappa, who I mostly* respect and am familiar with a lot of his stuff, didn't listen to him much but in my teens I had one group of friends where we would listen to, among many other unrelated things, Freak Out! (1966) and Absolutely Free (1967). Then later on with college friends, Thingfish.

*damn smart guy but sometimes wore that on his sleeve too much and was unnecessarily arrogant, I saw an interview with Grace Slick and he that was just not on

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Postby Brah » Fri, 30 Nov 2012 4:41 pm

For whatever reason, and never having listened to Bruce Cockburn, I make an unresearched connection between him and another name guy, Marshall Crenshaw, here doing a cover.

My Back Pages-Marshall Crenshaw.wmv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKndLa0RsNA

THE BYRDS- "MY BACK PAGES" ( W / LYRICS)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUGzwUTN80

My back pages - Eric Johnson (Bloom)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v6iSDuQzXk

Eric Johnson - My Back Pages live
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7ChohrWzJc

Bob Dylan 30 Anniversary of 1st album - JAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4UcaLHaabY

(read the comments re Clapton and Young) Young, who is not the poslished guitarist that Clapton is, I still liked Young's solo better and it fit.

"As far as guitar playing goes, they are as they appear. Eric Clapton is cool and head. Neil Young is fiery and heart. I vastly prefer Young's guitar playing. There are a million guitarists that sound like Clapton, there is no-one that sounds like Neil Young. You can just feel the energy and excitement level amp up when Young hits a solo. He lifts the whole concert. "

"If you watch the rehersal then this you can see that Clapton must have been sandbagging poor Neil Young with his solo. Petty even turns to Young and says 'You're screwed!' Who can follow that?"

Don't know how Clapton gets invited to these things, to me he doesn't fit in here, whereas I think Harrison does, but that's just me.

Mariachi indeed, WTF was he thinking. Good sense of humor.

The only two versions worth listening to for this song, and both on the same movie and soundtrack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSVl5W6dHlo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZXLLMbJdZ4

Neither play Rickenbacker guitars but they get that Byrds sound thing.

JR8 wrote:Thanks for that introduction - another one of those names I've heard but never checked out. For example, I had a friend who was a huge Bruce Cockburn fan, who I haven't got around to checking out yet.

Nice too... I'd never heard of him! Just checked out Youtube, track #1 is accomplished (reminds me of Neil Young), but with a BIG left-wing heart on his sleeve... will look further, hope he's not always so in your face with the leftie politics though...


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