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Postby x9200 » Wed, 21 Nov 2012 8:59 am

JR8 wrote:
x9200 wrote:Trying to explore more systematically The Stranglers recently...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhZuAQyP1So

Lyrics part, a parody of the culmination scene from Blade Runner? :shock:


How deep do you want to go? :) Back in those days we youngsters tended to identify (and be identified with) one, or a very few bands. The Stranglers were my band, and I saw them live about 10 times between 1978-1982.

The original long-time vocalist Hugh Cornwell wrote a book 'Song by song' some years back, around '96-97 (???), I've just checked and I can confirm it's not mentioned in there. So can only assume it was written after he left the band.

No, it's not his, Google Almighty says it's Paul Roberts and confirms the ref. to Blade Runner.

I like them, not really incidentally. All their popular stuff like Skin deep, No more heroes, Golden Brown and trying to dig deeper for some less popular like the discussed "Time to die" or "Let's tango in Paris" or "Vladimir and the beast". The one from your link is also nice but I am probably more inclined towards their new wave part.


p.s. I was asked to do the reading in chapel at school and argued that I was not in a position to do so as I believed in the Men In Black (a concept and lyrical device of the Stranglers) rather than God and Christianity. For that the neanderthals saw fit to cane me lol... frankly I still think it was quite creative!

I like the album. Conceptual-wise, yet have to try to digest it :)

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Postby Brah » Wed, 21 Nov 2012 3:21 pm

With this post you just redeemed yourself from your earlier "Don't Stop Believin" post. IMNSHO.

For me (and that is the operative point in these kinds of discussions) Journey is but a hair less cringe-worthy than REO Speedwagon but in the same people's Shopping Carts. Having said that, I like the the Schon / Hammer album, much like I do any solo work by Lukather, whereas I'm no Toto fan, though they do have some good music comparably to the other two and are way better musicians.

I think this is why I stayed away from this thread - I'm way too opinionated and there is some music I'm just plain intolerant of (hmm, just realized 'rant' is inside 'intolerant'...). I'm missing the diplomatic gene when it comes to music.

I wasn't so much like that before coming to Singapore, but after coming here and being bombarded with that melodramatic dreck I hear everywhere, like the millionth time hearing the same Celene Dion or Whitney Houston songs while I throw up in my mouth. I swear if I hear "I Believe I Can Fly" again I will go postal.

For that reason, and as that much of what I listen to is obscure enough that most probably don't it. For example my obscure reference at end of the nefarious "Ang Moh" thread, I thought at least SMS would catch that....

There are leagues of bands from the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and 00s I still have to delve into, and threads like this one can serve to get introduced to some of that. Just like there's bands I like and know 1-2 albums but have not yet explored their full back catalogs.

OK, ok, I know, we're supposed to find commonalities, not differences...

JR8 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eitgsSrprKQ&feature=fvst
king crimson epitaph

woof!.

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 21 Nov 2012 5:45 pm

x9200 wrote:

No, it's not his, Google Almighty says it's Paul Roberts and confirms the ref. to Blade Runner.

Ah, he is the guy who replaced Cornwell.


I like them, not really incidentally. All their popular stuff like Skin deep, No more heroes, Golden Brown and trying to dig deeper for some less popular like the discussed "Time to die" or "Let's tango in Paris" or "Vladimir and the beast". The one from your link is also nice but I am probably more inclined towards their new wave part.

Golden Brown was a chart song; it is about heroine addiction. I was surprised when I found that out, as it is such a gentle and harmonious song!

I think you get a cut off point from their original sound to when Cornwell eventually left (like from 'No more heroes' to 'Strange little girl'). He evolved more quickly that the rest of the band, AND the audience. He was latterly constantly trying to move towards lighter and more cerebral stuff and something had to give...


I like the album. Conceptual-wise, yet have to try to digest it :)

What Men In Black? That was a motif they had for a long time, and from before that song/album. In fact if you look closely at the sleeve of their first album (Rattus Norvegicus), you might notice a little 'man in black' silhouetted against a window in the background (albeit as a black dot under the lamp in this picture!). So it was an idea they had from the outset, it is just took some years before they started incorporating it into songs
http://www.punk77.co.uk/groups/Stranglersrattus.htm
[/color]

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 22 Nov 2012 12:27 am

Brah wrote:With this post you just redeemed yourself from your earlier "Don't Stop Believin" post. IMNSHO.

Hehehehe! :-D These days I'm a lot more open minded about music than I used to be; as at home with punk as a solid baroque fugue. That said there are limits and I'd like to point out that I was never into Journey as a band (way too AOR and hence 'non-descript' for me). BUT I enjoy that song because of karaoke. My take? You try and sing it and not respect Steve Perry (vocals) afterwards... jeez, he must have had immense breath-control to hold those notes, and his voice is SO nimble up and down through the chords. Simples eh? :)

For me (and that is the operative point in these kinds of discussions) Journey is but a hair less cringe-worthy than REO Speedwagon but in the same people's Shopping Carts.

Ah but as suggested I own a looot of albums but not one AOR album (like Journey, REO-S... I had two Eagles' albums but sold them long long ago...)

Having said that, I like the the Schon / Hammer album, much like I do any solo work by Lukather,

Never heard of them.

whereas I'm no Toto fan, though they do have some good music comparably to the other two and are way better musicians.

Toto... OMTFG... about as engaging as Yanni.


I think this is why I stayed away from this thread - I'm way too opinionated and there is some music I'm just plain intolerant of

Doesn't bother me cap'n! I'm always interested to hear people say what they like, and sometimes fascinated by why. You know 'I love Abba because they make me happy and want to dance' is reason enough, isn't it?

If you are interested by stuff I enjoy then great. If not then you're unsophisticated and I feel sorry for you lol.


(hmm, just realized 'rant' is inside 'intolerant'...).

Man, that's beautiful ;)

I'm missing the diplomatic gene when it comes to music.

Good, it is and always will be tribal.

I wasn't so much like that before coming to Singapore, but after coming here and being bombarded with that melodramatic dreck I hear everywhere, like the millionth time hearing the same Celene Dion or Whitney Houston songs while I throw up in my mouth. I swear if I hear "I Believe I Can Fly" again I will go postal.

Yes. One could have an interesting side-discussion about why SGns are quite so musically unadventurous. Is it another example of SE Asian default conformity? etc etc.

For that reason, and as that much of what I listen to is obscure enough that most probably don't it. For example my obscure reference at end of the nefarious "Ang Moh" thread, I thought at least SMS would catch that....

You mentioned Hotel California? ;)


There are leagues of bands from the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and 00s I still have to delve into, and threads like this one can serve to get introduced to some of that. Just like there's bands I like and know 1-2 albums but have not yet explored their full back catalogs.

Quite. And that was exactly the point of starting this topic really. Culturally I have XYZ taste and background, but just because you are from elsewhere does not mean you might not like some of it. The starting point is simply to put it on your radar.

OK, ok, I know, we're supposed to find commonalities, not differences...

Says whom? I would say I'm here to learn, grow, and hopefully contribute. I can also learn and grow through not agreeing with someone else. ;)


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Postby Brah » Thu, 22 Nov 2012 5:49 pm

JR8 wrote:
Brah wrote:With this post you just redeemed yourself from your earlier "Don't Stop Believin" post. IMNSHO.

I was never into Journey as a band (way too AOR and hence 'non-descript' for me). BUT I enjoy that song because of karaoke. My take? You try and sing it and not respect Steve Perry (vocals) afterwards

He does / did have a great voice

Having said that, I like the the Schon / Hammer album, much like I do any solo work by Lukather,


Never heard of them.

Schon = Journey's guitarist (and now famous adulterer) + Jan Hammer = Jimi Hendrix of the keyboards, once one gets over the Miami Vice and very 80s DX7 sounds

whereas I'm no Toto fan, though they do have some good music comparably to the other two and are way better musicians.

Toto... OMTFG... about as engaging as Yanni.

Yeah but the Porcaros and Lukather are top musicians, and much Lukather's solo work is very good, he's a kick-ass guitarist

For example my obscure reference at end of the nefarious "Ang Moh" thread, I thought at least SMS would catch that....

You mentioned Hotel California? ;)

I might have, but was referring to the last 5 paragraphs of my 2nd to last post there. I'll give the older guys on the forum one last chance for that, I thought it was pretty easy. (hint - it is extremely timely right now)



OK, ok, I know, we're supposed to find commonalities, not differences...

Says whom? I would say I'm here to learn, grow, and hopefully contribute. I can also learn and grow through not agreeing with someone else. ;)

Yeah I like that better

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Postby x9200 » Thu, 22 Nov 2012 6:32 pm

JR8 wrote:
x9200 wrote:

No, it's not his, Google Almighty says it's Paul Roberts and confirms the ref. to Blade Runner.

Ah, he is the guy who replaced Cornwell.


I like them, not really incidentally. All their popular stuff like Skin deep, No more heroes, Golden Brown and trying to dig deeper for some less popular like the discussed "Time to die" or "Let's tango in Paris" or "Vladimir and the beast". The one from your link is also nice but I am probably more inclined towards their new wave part.

Golden Brown was a chart song; it is about heroine addiction. I was surprised when I found that out, as it is such a gentle and harmonious song!

I think you get a cut off point from their original sound to when Cornwell eventually left (like from 'No more heroes' to 'Strange little girl'). He evolved more quickly that the rest of the band, AND the audience. He was latterly constantly trying to move towards lighter and more cerebral stuff and something had to give...


I like the album. Conceptual-wise, yet have to try to digest it :)

What Men In Black? That was a motif they had for a long time, and from before that song/album. In fact if you look closely at the sleeve of their first album (Rattus Norvegicus), you might notice a little 'man in black' silhouetted against a window in the background (albeit as a black dot under the lamp in this picture!). So it was an idea they had from the outset, it is just took some years before they started incorporating it into songs
http://www.punk77.co.uk/groups/Stranglersrattus.htm
[/color]


Yeah, I read that the signs of m-i-blackizm appeared earlier but from my level of illiteracy this Album = some climax.
Very interesting about the heroin and G-B.

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Postby Brah » Thu, 22 Nov 2012 7:04 pm

x9200 wrote:
JR8 wrote:
x9200 wrote:I like them, not really incidentally. All their popular stuff like Skin deep, No more heroes, Golden Brown
Golden Brown was a chart song; it is about heroine addiction. I was surprised when I found that out, as it is such a gentle and harmonious song!

Very interesting about the heroin and G-B.

I never delved into the Stranglers, more out of access and time but did like Golden Brown - when it came out I checked their other stuff and found it to be very different, didn't pursue them further. But they're one of the many, many groups for me to go back and discover.

Interestingly enough, The Stranglers came up on a thread recently in the Nelsonica forum, where I was posting a while back. But they talk more of the connection with The Skids there.
Last edited by Brah on Thu, 22 Nov 2012 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 22 Nov 2012 7:06 pm

x9200 wrote:Very interesting about the heroin and G-B.


I recall them appearing* and playing it on a popular TV show and being asked it's meaning. Hugh explained that the song is intended as a musical Rorschach test, in that there is no fixed meaning but rather what you find in it will be a reflection of your own personality.

Well. I've tried very hard over the years to try and find ANY other meaning than what seems blindingly obvious to me. But hey, maybe it's just me ;)


* back at the time it was released.

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Postby Brah » Thu, 22 Nov 2012 7:21 pm

The comments are interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7R7q1lSZfs

Had to watch it, hadn't heard it in years.

So JR - what say you re The Skids or Nelson?

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 22 Nov 2012 7:51 pm

Brah wrote:The comments are interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7R7q1lSZfs
Had to watch it, hadn't heard it in years.

Nor me, it is a nice tune. It's built around a classical chord structure (for the life of me I cannot recall it's name but think Pachelbel and Vivaldi* who really whored out the same compositional device to the max) that really sucks you in. Gotta love that harpsichord. You know Dave Greenfield used to drive an ice cream van before joining the Stranglers lol...


So JR - what say you re The Skids or Nelson?

The Skids? Well, I remember them, but I was never into them as such. I think 'Into the valley' is/was the only song of theirs that registered at all for me.

I wasn't aware of any connection between the Skids and Stranglers. The Skids were from Scotland IIRC, the Stranglers from Guildford. Geography alone and the perma train-strikes in the 70s would surely have made musical cross-fertilisation a challenge?

p.s. Not sure what you mean by 'Nelson'... ?





*also Bach's Air on a G String etc

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Postby Brah » Thu, 22 Nov 2012 8:09 pm

As one who listens to an embarrassing amount of Baroque and Classical music, I would hazard that that it's not based on anything.
I could be wrong. The odd (and I don't mean strange but 3-3-3-3-2, if I've got that right) time signature makes comparisons harder. I think it's more classical like Yngwie is classical.

JR8 wrote:
Brah wrote:The comments are interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7R7q1lSZfs
Had to watch it, hadn't heard it in years.

Nor me, it is a nice tune. It's built around a classical chord structure (for the life of me I cannot recall it's name but think Pachelbel and Vivaldi* who really whored out the same compositional device to the max) that really sucks you in. Gotta love that harpsichord. You know Dave Greenfield used to drive an ice cream van before joining the Stranglers lol...


So JR - what say you re The Skids or Nelson?

The Skids? Well, I remember them, but I was never into them as such. I think 'Into the valley' is/was the only song of theirs that registered at all for me.

I wasn't aware of any connection between the Skids and Stranglers. The Skids were from Scotland IIRC, the Stranglers from Guildford. Geography alone and the perma train-strikes in the 70s would surely have made musical cross-fertilisation a challenge?

p.s. Not sure what you mean by 'Nelson'... ?



Well, I only know of The Skids from hearing about them, or their leader, who went to to create Big Country, as being very influenced by Bill Nelson, the creator of Be Bop Deluxe.

Back in those days, when songs like Golden Brown and bands like the pre-nauseating version of Ultravox, Kajagoogoo, Talking Heads, Icehouse, The B-52s and a thousand other Pre-Wave or New Wave bands where on the radio waves, I was fully immersed in Be Bop Deluxe and XTC, much like I was with Todd Rundgren in the era just before that one.

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 23 Nov 2012 12:55 am

Brah wrote:As one who listens to an embarrassing amount of Baroque and Classical music, I would hazard that that it's not based on anything.


You are a betting man eh? :) If I have time I will look into it.

I could be wrong. The odd (and I don't mean strange but 3-3-3-3-2, if I've got that right) time signature makes comparisons harder. I think it's more classical like Yngwie is classical.

But you accept that there are some compositional structures that immediately 'tweek your emotions'? You know, the kind of ones routinely used in adverts. Ask yourself how...


Well, I only know of The Skids from hearing about them, or their leader, who went to to create Big Country, as being very influenced by Bill Nelson, the creator of Be Bop Deluxe.

Funny lot. I don't really go for UK music in regional accents so thick I can't understand them (my jury is still out on The Proclaimers for the same reason).


Back in those days, when songs like Golden Brown and bands like the pre-nauseating version of Ultravox

I think they had their moment

, Kajagoogoo

Que!? You mention them in the same breath as Talking Heads ands B52s!¬? What next Bros? ;)

, Talking Heads, Icehouse, The B-52s and a thousand other Pre-Wave or New Wave bands where on the radio waves, I was fully immersed in Be Bop Deluxe and XTC, much like I was with Todd Rundgren in the era just before that one.

Talking Heads > Quality
Icehouse > Were they Australian?
B-52s > Legend
BBD > Never heard f him until you mentioned him (for which many thanks)
XTC > Classic new wave. [.We're only making plans etc > quality! :)]
Todd Rundgren > Never crossed my radar... it's like mid 70s AOR right? ... could you post a representative youtube link if you have a moment?


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Postby JR8 » Fri, 23 Nov 2012 1:04 am

Here, if you're into early/mid-70s prog how about this...

King Crimson - Epitaph (Live 69r.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xym-_17p ... re=related

Or, how deep do you wanna go :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S2_IusC6Eg
Introduction to Jan Akkerman (FOCUS)

Focus play Bartók
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8Fq1c5n ... re=related

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Postby Brah » Fri, 23 Nov 2012 8:36 am

Prog has always been my foundation. Neo-prog revived it and I'm still somewhat current. Owning a lot, familiar with most, there's still tons I haven't got to yet.

KC are a good starting place (many claim they started Prog) and always a good place to return, and most of their stuff remain as hallmarks for it. I know less of the later work past MK2 / '94.

Focus was less known in the States, though naturally I knew them. If you grew up in the NY area during my time you would hear this every day on one of the local radio stations:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkbHLXZTTyg

JR8 wrote:Here, if you're into early/mid-70s prog how about this...

King Crimson - Epitaph (Live 69r.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xym-_17p ... re=related

Or, how deep do you wanna go :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S2_IusC6Eg
Introduction to Jan Akkerman (FOCUS)

Focus play Bartók
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8Fq1c5n ... re=related

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Postby Brah » Fri, 23 Nov 2012 4:34 pm

JR8 wrote:
Brah wrote:I would hazard that that it's not based on anything.

You are a betting man eh? :) If I have time I will look into it.
I'd be interested to see if it is actually a quotation from a famous work

But you accept that there are some compositional structures that immediately 'tweek your emotions'? You know, the kind of ones routinely used in adverts. Ask yourself how...
Absolutely - strong harmonic shifts or well-constructed melodies do that. Unfortunately a lot of classical music has been bastardized for commercial purposes ad nauseam, such as The Four Seasons, Pachelbel's Canon and the like, to the point they loose their meaning to the sophisticated listener.

It's tiring to hear the same Classical Music 101 pieces in ill-fitting situations and out of context from the composer's intent.

Those examples are a couple of the easy ones, I can site a less-well known one that may come as a surprise.


..pre-nauseating version of Ultravox
I think they had their moment

Kajagoogoo
Que!? You mention them in the same breath as Talking Heads ands B52s!¬? What next Bros? ;)

Talking Heads, Icehouse, The B-52s and a thousand other Pre-Wave or New Wave bands where on the radio waves, I was fully immersed in Be Bop Deluxe and XTC, much like I was with Todd Rundgren in the era just before that one.

Talking Heads > Quality
Icehouse > Were they Australian?
B-52s > Legend
BBD > Never heard f him until you mentioned him (for which many thanks)
XTC > Classic new wave. [.We're only making plans etc > quality! :)]
Todd Rundgren > Never crossed my radar... it's like mid 70s AOR right? ... could you post a representative youtube link if you have a moment?


Ultravox - a big fan when Vienna came out, which was a groundbreaking release, then got into their back catalog which is not unlike pre-English Settlement XTC in rawness and punk; after Vienna they started taking themselves too seriously or something and became silly melodramatic and overblown, probably taking down the New Romantic movement with them

Kajagoogoo - Que!? You mention them in the same breath as Talking Heads ands B52s!?) same era - some good songs (besides Too Shy) and excellent bass player

Talking Heads - yes quality in many ways - artists as musicians, and one of those who successfully pulled off the African thing, along with Peter Gabriel, Paul Simon, King Crimson, and one or two others I can't think of at the moment

Icehouse - yes Australian, had a few good songs, but not really significant, a random entry to this random list

B-52s - when fun came back into music, and campy-ness

BBD - a tired cliche but way ahead of their time, and under-recognized, plus Nelson is one of the better guitarists ever

XTC - Though they should be included in any respectable collection or compilation of NW, I don't know if I'd call them Classic new wave, they were a cut well above most or all of their contemporaries, in songwriting, creativity, and some are quite good musicians. Before English Settlement they were creative punks; from ES and onwards they were like the reincarnation of the Beatles and did amazing things

Todd Rundgren - one of the few, unlike as some claim Prince, Costello, Bowie, and a lot of others to be, I've always considered him a genius. This is a long, in-depth, and separate conversation, and really requires being familiar with all or most of his music and productions. But trust me on this.


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