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Re: Music

Postby x9200 » Tue, 10 May 2016 1:03 pm

JR8 wrote:That Prokofiev piece always conjoured for me images of a 'lumbering relentless Soviet war machine'. It still does, that menace. Ironic (as you title it) it's part of a suite titled Romeo and Juliet.

I've never had this sort of associations with this one. Probably the only similarity for me would be with Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries and the German's Nazi (must be pretty common) but actually, I think it was taken over after some time and now I more associate it with Apocalypse Now.

And this was made for the Hunt For Red October and I think it is pretty close to my mental image of the Soviet era (partly for the reason I understand the words).

JR8 wrote:That theme to 'The Fire Truck' reminds me of a cross between Rambo[1] and the Magnificent Seven.
'The Englishman'. Sounds like a string quartet/+. Rope in the Americans with some Gaelic sounding pipes.
...
I'd never considered 'film theme' music as a genre... it's really very different and quite strange on the ear. Some of it makes Prokofiev seem a pretty straight-forward proposition ;)

I think it is not a separate genre but for a substantial part of the soundtracks a common factor would be what some people call epic. I believe it is not that frequent to see it not associated anyhow with a movie (or a video game).

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Re: Music

Postby Brah » Tue, 10 May 2016 6:18 pm

In response to X9200...
JR8 wrote:I'd never considered 'film theme' music as a genre... it's really very different and quite strange on the ear. Some of it makes Prokofiev seem a pretty straight-forward proposition ;)

I would have to agree. I listened to all, and while I wouldn't consider them to be "ABBA-ish", they are soundtrack-y albeit using orchestral instruments and arrangements. Which reminds me of something.....something Prog Metal but thought to post something else in response....

The Prog Metal thing is the beginning of an 'epic,' as they say, song on an album. "Epic' as it is long and with many sections and movements, and also as it is, arguably, excellent (I certainly think so, it is somewhere in my top 50, or higher, probably).

You can listen to the work proper, the part after the orchestral intro, but for sake of this conversation I mean just the first 3:40 minutes.
It sounds like something out of The Simpsons (the music of which was done by Danny Elfman, who led Oingo Boingo in the 80s) and was composed by the guitarist on synthesizers and I don't think there are any real orchestral instruments. Compositionally and in execution, pretty impressive.

The other, original idea I got from X9200's links was this, which is a near proper orchestral work and catchy theme:
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Re: Music

Postby JR8 » Tue, 10 May 2016 11:23 pm

x9200 wrote:I've never had this sort of associations with this one. Probably the only similarity for me would be with Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries and the German's Nazi (must be pretty common) but actually, I think it was taken over after some time and now I more associate it with Apocalypse Now.

It is (IIRC) part of Wagner's 'Ring Cycle', and yes it, and Wagner's music certainly has Nazi connotations.

x9200 wrote:And this was made for the Hunt For Red October and I think it is pretty close to my mental image of the Soviet era (partly for the reason I understand the words).

I see what you mean, and interesting for me that for you the words add to the impact... but yes of course I can see that, it surely adds another dimension to the image/mood being put forward.

x9200 wrote:I think it is not a separate genre but for a substantial part of the soundtracks a common factor would be what some people call epic. I believe it is not that frequent to see it not associated anyhow with a movie (or a video game).


Epic - yes. The Wagner piece, the music to 'H4RO' that you linked, they both have that. A terrific sense of foreboding. 'What ever it's going to be it's going to be big'. In fact there is a similar line in Apocalypse Now when Willard [Sheen] says of Killgore - 'I don't know where we're supposed to be taking this boat, but one look at him and I know it's going to be hot'.

Another example of 'epic' is the music that used to be used in the TV ad for Old Spice aftershave. 'Oh Fortuna!' by Carl Orff. I've linked it before, but here it is again in all it's 70s tacky epic-ness. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rbZr7YoqK0 'Old Spice Theme song'

And an HQ rendition of the full piece... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD3VsesSBsw
'Carmina Burana ~ O Fortuna | Carl Orff ~ André Rieu' [5:12mins]
Foreboding, terrifying, powerful... no wonder some members of the audience apparently ended up in tears.
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Re: Music

Postby Brah » Wed, 11 May 2016 5:02 pm

I listened to some Russian composers, like Rimsky-Korsakov in regards to earlier posts, but it didn't really relate to anything worth posting re the Wagner.

Still, couldn't get this out of my mind, a CD I have from years ago and hadn't heard for a while
https://www.song365.name/track/jeff-kol ... 10669.html (RATM you may want to check this guy out, killer player and great songs)

Like a lot of Classical music that has been commercialized, that theme has been used been used in so many movies and commercials they lose their impact.
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Re: Music

Postby JR8 » Wed, 11 May 2016 9:52 pm

re: Brah's above-linked.
I found the recording quality of that outstanding. Putting the content aside for a moment; it is an extremely rare track that lights my PC sound playback just about on fire due solely to the detail in the recording. It did 'that thing' where it seemed to be coming out almost in 3D.
To get that from an early 80's 'LA punk band' is very, veeeeery unexpected :-o
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Re: Music

Postby Brah » Wed, 11 May 2016 10:18 pm

Sorry, I've posted a lot lately, which one?
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Re: Music

Postby JR8 » Wed, 11 May 2016 10:53 pm

The Bad Religion link directly above my previous.
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Re: Music

Postby Brah » Wed, 11 May 2016 11:35 pm

JR8 wrote:The Bad Religion link directly above my previous.

Ok now this is weird. I don't know who Bad Religion are, but noticed it in the link though not the URL.

The artist is Jeff Kollman, who is pretty obscure except among a few guitar heads, and I couldn't find that song on YT, only that site, which is a good find as they have whole albums. Can't be legal.

https://www.song365.name/album/jeff-kol ... 47143.html

He's a mix of Metal and a lot of other things, I think this was his debut album as many songs are in different styles as a showcase, all instrumental.
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Re: Music

Postby JR8 » Thu, 12 May 2016 12:46 am

How about that, seems we have a new musical genre.... Jihadi-Trap
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-2nByd2cr4
'Allahu Trapbar | Arabic | Trap | Beat | Compilation video




Edit/add: Lol!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_Ep03hFfd4
'Zwirek - Jihad Trap [Drop The Bomb]'
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Re: Music

Postby x9200 » Thu, 12 May 2016 8:50 am

I am still having problems to comprehend this whole epic/symphonic/soundrtackish thing.The Symphony X. Odyssey (I like it, thanks Brah), it's a very good example of this perhaps artificial type, yet not created here as a soundtrack. I feel there is a common factor (denominator would be too strong) across the PR or PM and the soundtracks. It goes beyond the instrumentation (i.e. orchestral). It is also different than just "standard" "epicness". Soundtrack "epicness" is like hero stories telling; The PR "epicness" seems more about emotional proportions (epic proportion) - Nights in White Satin for example or Black Flame (Renaissance), but this is also often similar to some story telling. I mean, the music itself, not necessarily underlying story inspiring it. The opening part of Scheherazade is neither hero-epic, nor emotional epic but is still epic. Or is it only me who feels this way?

Or maybe it is mostly the instrumental factor anyway creating this epic illusions?

Or perhaps yet another and more simple approach. If I listen to the earlier quoted Stephen Endelman's - Hustle & Bustle, https://youtu.be/MYSgfCUiamU
I could say, it's likely from a soundtrack. I have problems to define why I feel it is.

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Re: Music

Postby Brah » Thu, 12 May 2016 11:07 am

JR8 wrote:How about that, seems we have a new musical genre.... Jihadi-Trap
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-2nByd2cr4
'Allahu Trapbar | Arabic | Trap | Beat | Compilation video

From the comments "This is some pagan bedouin shit."

I'm going to take a shower now to wash that one off me.....
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Re: Music

Postby Brah » Thu, 12 May 2016 4:58 pm

x9200 wrote:I am still having problems to comprehend this whole epic/symphonic/soundtrackish thing.

The Symphony X. Odyssey (I like it, thanks Brah), it's a very good example of this perhaps artificial type, yet not created here as a soundtrack.

I feel there is a common factor (denominator would be too strong) across the PR or PM and the soundtracks. It goes beyond the instrumentation (i.e. orchestral). It is also different than just "standard" "epicness".

Soundtrack "epicness" is like hero stories telling;

This might factor into Soundtrack "epicness":
Synergy - Electronic Realizations for Rock Orchestra
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDM6kd8rk3g#t=27m34s
I cued it to a specific example but the album starts off this way as well


The PR "epicness" seems more about emotional proportions (epic proportion) -
Still getting my head around this...

This might factor into the PR/Prog Rock-type of epicness, and 7-minute intro - Todd Rundgren's Utopia - Utopia Theme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0biMIoOEdjo

Nights in White Satin for example or Black Flame (Renaissance), but this is also often similar to some story telling. I mean, the music itself, not necessarily underlying story inspiring it.
Right, and there are many Moody Blues such examples

The opening part of Scheherazade is neither hero-epic, nor emotional epic but is still epic. Or is it only me who feels this way?

Or maybe it is mostly the instrumental factor anyway creating this epic illusions?

For me there is a lot of emotion in some endings, two I can think of but will have to post later.
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Re: Music

Postby JR8 » Thu, 12 May 2016 10:40 pm

x9200 wrote: Or perhaps yet another and more simple approach. If I listen to the earlier quoted Stephen Endelman's - Hustle & Bustle, https://youtu.be/MYSgfCUiamU
I could say, it's likely from a soundtrack. I have problems to define why I feel it is.


Most compositions are self-resolving, they... er ... make a proposition and then answer it. You can either do that in a highly direct way like in a '4-chord song', or in a meandering and complex way as in and across the tracks of a 'concept album'.

This linked piece is to me not self-resolving. But I don't think that's the intention, rather it sets the scene for the following film to resolve.

That's a curious thought, is it usual for the intro music for a film to self-resolve? Hmmm....
I know the occasional piece of such music has has commercial appeal and charted (example: the Bond Movies), but it doesn't seem to be common. Perhaps it's more about setting a mood for the film to follow...
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Re: Music

Postby Brah » Fri, 13 May 2016 1:25 am

JR8 wrote:
x9200 wrote:I know the occasional piece of such music has has commercial appeal and charted (example: the Bond Movies), but it doesn't seem to be common. Perhaps it's more about setting a mood for the film to follow...

Agree, this is kind of of the point - it's the movie leading the music, not the other way around.

Sometimes movies time or bend their plot or sequences to a known, previously-composed work of music, for example the Pan Am shuttle sequence in 2001 A Space Odyssey to The Blue Danube, or the beginning to Also Sprach Zarathustra.

But usually it is a soundtrack composer fitting the music to the situation in the movie. It is how a lot of musicians make their money where albums and live performances can no longer sustain them.
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Re: Music

Postby JR8 » Sat, 14 May 2016 2:29 am

I remember seeing them around the same time I was into punk/new wave.... [late 70/early 80s]
Hell of a show :) Some 'old time' boogie-woogie. George Melly was such an eponymous personality back then I was willing to cross that barrier - and glad I did :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdrywyZBKVs - 'George Melly - The Boogie Woogie Man'

and another example.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9kZZZaZ3kE - 'George Melly & John Chilton's Feetwarmers'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Melly
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