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Urgent questions on NS deferment from a panic mom

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Urgent questions on NS deferment from a panic mom

Postby Huaihua » Thu, 02 Jun 2011 7:27 pm

Hi anyone who can help out:
My son who left Japan before he turned 2 and has beening living overseas since then. He has turned 18 with an active exit permit allowing him to complete his high school edu overseas. But now he received a letter from Mindef asking him to enlist himself by the end of June 2011 and reporting to CMPB by July 1. But he is accepted by a good US uni and wants to go to study without serving NS. We are going to apply for a deferment for tertiary edu overseas from overseas. A friend recommended a lawyer but his fees are very high. What are the chances of getting such a deferment? Time is not on our side. Could anyone give us some advice ASAP please?

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Re: Urgent questions on NS deferment from a panic mom

Postby Mad Scientist » Fri, 03 Jun 2011 1:53 am

Huaihua wrote:Hi anyone who can help out:
My son who left Japan before he turned 2 and has beening living overseas since then. He has turned 18 with an active exit permit allowing him to complete his high school edu overseas.

You mean he has Exit Permit from CMPB yes ?

But now he received a letter from Mindef asking him to enlist himself by the end of June 2011 and reporting to CMPB by July 1. But he is accepted by a good US uni and wants to go to study without serving NS. We are going to apply for a deferment for tertiary edu overseas from overseas.

MINDEF/CMPB/MOE/ does not allow NS enlistees to further their studies to tertiary. It is allowable up to Pre U , College and Diplomas level. No way to circumvent this. Many have tried and failed they did and worse off after that !!

A friend recommended a lawyer but his fees are very high. What are the chances of getting such a deferment? Time is not on our side. Could anyone give us some advice ASAP please?


No point throwing your money away at the lawyer. Might as well donate it to charity or this forum . It will be rejected with or without lawyer. I have never seen anyone even the ex-Cabinet Ministers tried to flout this rule and succeed. Deferment impossible, Application for renunciation after 21 to let him stay overseas maybe. I said maybe as he is 18 now as the timeline to apply for deferment till 21 for renunciation is 13 to 16

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NS deferment

Postby Huaihua » Sat, 04 Jun 2011 2:16 am

Hi MS, Thank you so much for your comments. I was looking forward to hearing your comments.
My son does have an CMPB exit permit right now till the end of June. The problem is that he has never given it a thought about serving NS in a country where he only lived less than two years. It was also my fault not to renounce his SG citizenship earlier. Now he is stuck. He does not want to serve and I cannot make him. If we don't get the deferment, he will have to serve or otherwise. It is the otherwise that I am worried about. What happens to a SG citizen overseas without serving the NS when he wants to renew his passport from overseas?
Also we have a huge bond that we have to pay if he does not serve. It is a big burden on us too. I wonder if the bond/fine is negotiable.
I have too many questions. I will only ask these for now so that you could answer more easily.
Thanks!

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Postby Mad Scientist » Sat, 04 Jun 2011 2:55 am

Huaihua wrote:Hi MS, Thank you so much for your comments. I was looking forward to hearing your comments.
My son does have an CMPB exit permit right now till the end of June. The problem is that he has never given it a thought about serving NS in a country where he only lived less than two years. It was also my fault not to renounce his SG citizenship earlier. Now he is stuck. He does not want to serve and I cannot make him. If we don't get the deferment, he will have to serve or otherwise. It is the otherwise that I am worried about.

There are only two choices he can take
1. Do not serve and he will be liable in the court law. 1) Failure to report for NS/medical check up.2) Failure to report for NS service.3) NS Defaulters which command a 3yr jail or fine of $10K or both. Mom and Dad will be liable for fine of $3K for failure to advise to serve NS duties

OR.
1. Serve the NS which is about 2 yrs but more like 1 yr and 7 months. At the same time apply for Japan citizenship. Once turn 21 which will be at the same time he completes he NS service(approx), renounce his SG citizenship . Has to do it as that 21 age or else he has to serve 3 yrs of NS Reserve Service before he can renounce


What happens to a SG citizen overseas without serving the NS when he wants to renew his passport from overseas?

He cannot renew his PP either in SG or Japan as all renew application overseas will be sent back to ICA SG. His liabilities will stick out like a sore thumb. Either way if he has no valid travel doc, he cannot stay in Japan which will means he is an illegal immigrant as his Japan PR will coincide with his valid SG PP

Also we have a huge bond that we have to pay if he does not serve. It is a big burden on us too. I wonder if the bond/fine is negotiable.

If you wish to pay the $$ it will be $75K or which ever is higher on the parents income based on IRAS tax return. Nope it is not negotiable OR
provide two sureties. One is a living relative and the other one is yourself and signed the sureties paper at CMPB.
THAT DOES NOT ERADICATE the issue of allowing him to continue his studies at tertiary which is not permissible at any amount of appeal


Or Never ever step on foot in SG . Not even in transit as he will go to jail and then made to serve NS. The closest he can get is JB. Years from now when has to travel to SG for work or seminar or Social Visit or even transiting from one place to another, this offence will hang on his head like a dead's man walking passing thru SG .
Do not even try to contemplate as I have seen on my own eyes, the trauma the family has to go thru for something you guys decided to flout with.
If you are prepared to go thru it, make sure you have a back up plan as Gahmen has a very long memory



I have too many questions. I will only ask these for now so that you could answer more easily.
Thanks!
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Postby Huaihua » Sat, 04 Jun 2011 8:01 pm

MS, Thanks again.

I am sorry that I don't now to use this site well, therefore, I cannot reply to you with quotes from the previous message. I will just write my reply only.

1. Right now, my son is only a few weeks before he gets his Japanese citizenship. Perhaps he will get it during our application for a deferment for NS or appeal to the Minister of Justice. I am not sure what will happen if my son gets his Japanese nationality during this process. Our lawyer advices my son to stay where he is until this case is over, which could be 3 months.

2. I understand all the penalities which will be brought by defaulting. It is very scary. But the fact is that we have no more relatives in SG. And soon, we will all have a foreign nationality. So, not stepping in SG again for my son does not seem to be something he cannot bear because the truth is he has no reasons to go to SG as is now. We all live overseas and will be overseas for the rest of our lives. My husband and I are not originally from Singapore. We took up SG citizenship shortly before we had our son. Then, shortly after that, we all left SG. So, not being able to step in SG is not going to bother any of us. This does not mean we don't love the country for many good reasons, you know what I mean.

3. As for the parents' liability, I don't think it will apply to us because we do want my son to go to NS. It is he that does not want it. What proof does the SG gov have to accuse us for that and fine us S$3k?

4. Why did you say the NS is more like 1yr and 7mths?

5. My understanding for the bond is that if I don't pay up, the CMPB will go to my sureties and ask them to pay, right? But my surety is not my relative, what happens if the surety does not want to pay either? This is only a hyperthetical questions. What are the liabilities of my sureties? How much trouble will they be in if I cannot afford to pay for the bond?

6. On the other hand, what I don't understand is why the "real" Singaporeans don't want o serve NS. Those people have their roots in SG, maybe for two or more generations, but they don't want to do NS. I don't comprehend that. Those are the people who seem to have problems with being defaulters because they cannot meet their families in SG or cannot attend their grandparents' funerals, etc. Why do it? Is NS really that bad? Or is it just too long?

Thanks.

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Postby Koalabear » Sat, 04 Jun 2011 11:00 pm

Huaihua wrote:MS, Thanks again.

I am sorry that I don't now to use this site well, therefore, I cannot reply to you with quotes from the previous message. I will just write my reply only.

1. Right now, my son is only a few weeks before he gets his Japanese citizenship. Perhaps he will get it during our application for a deferment for NS or appeal to the Minister of Justice. I am not sure what will happen if my son gets his Japanese nationality during this process. Our lawyer advices my son to stay where he is until this case is over, which could be 3 months.

What do you mean what happens? Getting a Japanese citizenship has no bearing on his NS obligations. You think once he gets Japaneses citizenship he can annul his Singapore citizenship without penalties and jail time when he skips NS?

2. I understand all the penalities which will be brought by defaulting. It is very scary. But the fact is that we have no more relatives in SG. And soon, we will all have a foreign nationality. So, not stepping in SG again for my son does not seem to be something he cannot bear because the truth is he has no reasons to go to SG as is now. We all live overseas and will be overseas for the rest of our lives. My husband and I are not originally from Singapore. We took up SG citizenship shortly before we had our son. Then, shortly after that, we all left SG. So, not being able to step in SG is not going to bother any of us. This does not mean we don't love the country for many good reasons, you know what I mean.

If thats the case make sure you absolutely will not step in Singapore again. Then I guess Singapore can't do a thing against you unless you have CPF or HDB.

3. As for the parents' liability, I don't think it will apply to us because we do want my son to go to NS. It is he that does not want it. What proof does the SG gov have to accuse us for that and fine us S$3k?

It doesn't matter. You are liable for not brain-washing your son to serve NS. Singapore's law is designed to protect Singapore's profits, not to uphold justice.

4. Why did you say the NS is more like 1yr and 7mths?

Because if you are fit and with all leaves its like 1 yr and 7 months now without having to go addition physical training.

5. My understanding for the bond is that if I don't pay up, the CMPB will go to my sureties and ask them to pay, right? But my surety is not my relative, what happens if the surety does not want to pay either? This is only a hyperthetical questions. What are the liabilities of my sureties? How much trouble will they be in if I cannot afford to pay for the bond?

They can sue you I guess?

6. On the other hand, what I don't understand is why the "real" Singaporeans don't want o serve NS. Those people have their roots in SG, maybe for two or more generations, but they don't want to do NS. I don't comprehend that. Those are the people who seem to have problems with being defaulters because they cannot meet their families in SG or cannot attend their grandparents' funerals, etc. Why do it? Is NS really that bad? Or is it just too long?

........If Japan implements NS and forces your son to do NS before he studies in university will he?

Thanks.

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Postby Huaihua » Sat, 04 Jun 2011 11:28 pm

MS, Thanks again.
Hi K

Thanks for the reply.


1. What do you mean what happens? Getting a Japanese citizenship has no bearing on his NS obligations. You think once he gets Japaneses citizenship he can annul his Singapore citizenship without penalties and jail time when he skips NS?

Guess you are right.

2.

If thats the case make sure you absolutely will not step in Singapore again. Then I guess Singapore can't do a thing against you unless you have CPF or HDB.

My son lived in SG only between 0 yr - a little less than 2 yrs. He does not even have the pink IC. So, he has nothing in SG under his name. But I do have CPF, no HDB though. Don't understand what you mean by CPF or HDB. Will the gov do anything about those money and properties of the parents of defaulters?


3.
It doesn't matter. You are liable for not brain-washing your son to serve NS. Singapore's law is designed to protect Singapore's profits, not to uphold justice.

How does the gov fine the parents? Any idea on the process? e.g. the gov catches the parents when they come into SG, or the gov will send an order to the parents to pay the fine of 3K?

4.
Because if you are fit and with all leaves its like 1 yr and 7 months now without having to go addition physical training.

Got it.

5.
They can sue you I guess?

Yes, they can always do that. I just wonder if the defaulters' families actually pay the bond or not. Some people wrote on the internet that they don't think their family ever furnished the money. It seems quite impossible.


6. ........If Japan implements NS and forces your son to do NS before he studies in university will he?

If this happens, if he is a Japanese citizen, and if he is not anti-war, I think he will, and I think he should because he has lived here for 16 yrs and it is very much his country. If the same conditions exit in SG, I hope he will do NS too.

But my son is not totally against military training, he just wants to do it after college.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Sun, 05 Jun 2011 3:01 am

Huaihua wrote:MS, Thanks again.

I am sorry that I don't now to use this site well, therefore, I cannot reply to you with quotes from the previous message. I will just write my reply only.

That is alright. I understand and will try to guide you

1. Right now, my son is only a few weeks before he gets his Japanese citizenship. Perhaps he will get it during our application for a deferment for NS or appeal to the Minister of Justice. I am not sure what will happen if my son gets his Japanese nationality during this process. Our lawyer advices my son to stay where he is until this case is over, which could be 3 months.

If he is required to serve NS, he has to return, No two way about it.

2. I understand all the penalities which will be brought by defaulting. It is very scary. But the fact is that we have no more relatives in SG. And soon, we will all have a foreign nationality. So, not stepping in SG again for my son does not seem to be something he cannot bear because the truth is he has no reasons to go to SG as is now. We all live overseas and will be overseas for the rest of our lives. My husband and I are not originally from Singapore. We took up SG citizenship shortly before we had our son. Then, shortly after that, we all left SG. So, not being able to step in SG is not going to bother any of us. This does not mean we don't love the country for many good reasons, you know what I mean.

I do know Japan does not allow DUAL Citizenship
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_nationality_law. Or else I would have acquired it too during my stay in Kadoma many years ago.
If you knew this is the problem why acquired SG Citizenship. Even if you have received it, you should have renounce it asap before everything turns to custard which is the current situation you are in.
I do understand your situation but this is guidelines which has been set and there is no way to circumvent it be it in SG or Japan. Wa_Ka_Ta ?


3. As for the parents' liability, I don't think it will apply to us because we do want my son to go to NS. It is he that does not want it. What proof does the SG gov have to accuse us for that and fine us S$3k?

The day when you applied his Exit Permit, this is enough proof that child is liable as at 13 then he is a Minor. The onus to apply the EP is on the parents, right ??


4. Why did you say the NS is more like 1yr and 7mths?

If he took his Fitness Proficiency Test prior to NS and attained GOLD award, his NS stint will reduce.

5. My understanding for the bond is that if I don't pay up, the CMPB will go to my sureties and ask them to pay, right? But my surety is not my relative, what happens if the surety does not want to pay either? This is only a hyperthetical questions. What are the liabilities of my sureties? How much trouble will they be in if I cannot afford to pay for the bond?

Nope, you got it all wrong. Put up the bond OR the sureties. For bond, you lose all the $$ when child default . For sureties, they will face fine.
Either it does not eradicate of your child NS liabilities


6. On the other hand, what I don't understand is why the "real" Singaporeans don't want o serve NS. Those people have their roots in SG, maybe for two or more generations, but they don't want to do NS. I don't comprehend that. Those are the people who seem to have problems with being defaulters because they cannot meet their families in SG or cannot attend their grandparents' funerals, etc. Why do it? Is NS really that bad? Or is it just too long?

You sound like a broken record now. You were OK before this. Even after you acquire your Japan Citizenship and wanting to renounce SG Citizenship, you will face problem . The whole family will face one bottomless pit. Either way you will get the stick
NS service is not that bad. In fact it is like a walk in the park. The sticking point is at the age of 18 there are so much things going on which offers opportunities to the child is the main issue.
Please don't be a bad penny. Do you want to play Russian Roulette on your child life. ?GO ahead. I cannot reveal how the Gahmen apprehend defaulters as this is detrimental to the National Security of Singapore hence it is a NO-GO zone but trust me it will happen.
Just try and see how lucky you are

Thanks.
Last edited by Mad Scientist on Sun, 05 Jun 2011 4:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mad Scientist » Sun, 05 Jun 2011 3:17 am

Koalabear wrote:
Huaihua wrote:MS, Thanks again.


What do you mean what happens? Getting a Japanese citizenship has no bearing on his NS obligations. You think once he gets Japaneses citizenship he can annul his Singapore citizenship without penalties and jail time when he skips NS?


If thats the case make sure you absolutely will not step in Singapore again. Then I guess Singapore can't do a thing against you unless you have CPF or HDB.


It doesn't matter. You are liable for not brain-washing your son to serve NS. Singapore's law is designed to protect Singapore's profits, not to uphold justice.


Because if you are fit and with all leaves its like 1 yr and 7 months now without having to go addition physical training.


They can sue you I guess?


........If Japan implements NS and forces your son to do NS before he studies in university will he?

@Koala Bear

Although this is an open forum, the question was posted to me. I am communicating with the OP. If I did not reply to her initially , please feel free to give advise. By jumping in you are muddying the waters as it took away the actual issues and you are blurring the facts.
Did you see anyone else replying to OP?? Hmmm.... SMS , SE and KSL have more infos compare to you on this issue but they refrain from replying. This is the common understanding as the replies was meant for me. I would have done the same if the ques was posed to a particular person.
If you have no knowledge on this issue , please keep your comment to yourself. It is doing more damage than good. AS this is a serious thread which needs proper guidance not just throwing the mud and see how it slide.
I have been refraining from commenting your Q-Jumping replies before but I think I should correct it now before it gets worse.Replies are meant to add value to it not otherwise. Wait for the replies from the person that was intended to before commenting will be the way to go.
Please stop it especially with NS threads which you have little knowledge.
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Postby Koalabear » Sun, 05 Jun 2011 9:11 am

Mad Scientist wrote:
Koalabear wrote:
Huaihua wrote:MS, Thanks again.


What do you mean what happens? Getting a Japanese citizenship has no bearing on his NS obligations. You think once he gets Japaneses citizenship he can annul his Singapore citizenship without penalties and jail time when he skips NS?


If thats the case make sure you absolutely will not step in Singapore again. Then I guess Singapore can't do a thing against you unless you have CPF or HDB.


It doesn't matter. You are liable for not brain-washing your son to serve NS. Singapore's law is designed to protect Singapore's profits, not to uphold justice.


Because if you are fit and with all leaves its like 1 yr and 7 months now without having to go addition physical training.


They can sue you I guess?


........If Japan implements NS and forces your son to do NS before he studies in university will he?

@Koala Bear

Although this is an open forum, the question was posted to me. I am communicating with the OP. If I did not reply to her initially , please feel free to give advise. By jumping in you are muddying the waters as it took away the actual issues and you are blurring the facts.
Did you see anyone else replying to OP?? Hmmm.... SMS , SE and KSL have more infos compare to you on this issue but they refrain from replying. This is the common understanding as the replies was meant for me. I would have done the same if the ques was posed to a particular person.
If you have no knowledge on this issue , please keep your comment to yourself. It is doing more damage than good. AS this is a serious thread which needs proper guidance not just throwing the mud and see how it slide.
I have been refraining from commenting your Q-Jumping replies before but I think I should correct it now before it gets worse.Replies are meant to add value to it not otherwise. Wait for the replies from the person that was intended to before commenting will be the way to go.
Please stop it especially with NS threads which you have little knowledge.


Sorry, didn't see that question addressed to you. Just find it amusing how some adults do not understand how Singapore Inc works - making a profit out of you!

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Postby Mad Scientist » Sun, 05 Jun 2011 3:43 pm

Koalabear wrote:
Sorry, didn't see that question addressed to you. Just find it amusing how some adults do not understand how Singapore Inc works - making a profit out of you!


If they have known all the roadworks, they would not have come here for help, yes ??
There are time to plonk someone but there are other times where you can see if the poster are in need of help.
If they come here, it shows we are credible source of information.
We will try our best not to provide wrong info.
If for some reason OP is unreasonable, yeah by all means go for it
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Postby Koalabear » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 4:57 am

Mad Scientist wrote:
Koalabear wrote:
Sorry, didn't see that question addressed to you. Just find it amusing how some adults do not understand how Singapore Inc works - making a profit out of you!


If they have known all the roadworks, they would not have come here for help, yes ??
There are time to plonk someone but there are other times where you can see if the poster are in need of help.
If they come here, it shows we are credible source of information.
We will try our best not to provide wrong info.
If for some reason OP is unreasonable, yeah by all means go for it


I'd agree with you, but apart from hijacking your question I don't feel I have given her unprofessional answers meant to demean her in anyway. Her son has to make a painful choice now and the fact that her son is getting japanese citizenship in the process is complicating matters further. She'd have been in deep SXXX without your assistance.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 10:21 am

Not true, at least we show her the pros and cons. She can stop and ponder
Although acquiring Japanese Citizenship is her own making BUT at least she has more understanding of NS guidelines and its implications if her son chose not to serve. This is the crux of the matter.
Choices has been made. What has been done cannot be undone , what need to be said, has been said. What has not been said will be left unsaid.
Then on we left her with the choices
BTW I did not say you hijack this thread,what I said was you should add value to it as this is serious matter which affects one's life
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Postby Koalabear » Tue, 07 Jun 2011 10:48 am

I remember you can always defer your university study can't you?

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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 07 Jun 2011 11:38 am

Koalabear wrote:I remember you can always defer your university study can't you?


No you cannot. It has long change since 2005. This is why I said be careful with what you advise people here. Go and google Dr. Ng Ee Heng speech on this
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