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ecureilx
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Postby ecureilx » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 4:10 pm

ksl wrote:Though in a Country like Singapore, the good, bad and the ugly, exist like anywhere else in the world, though commonsense is lacking in Singapore, as we see time and time again in many areas of society.


Maybe the part of Singapore you live in is like that .. but .. not among the haunts of mine :D :D

Even if a suitcase was in anyone's way, they have no right to kick it out of the way full stop, the act is in the kick, not the moving of the object if it is obstructing. Ignorance of the law is no excuse either! No matter how amusing it may appear.


My problem is .. if somebody left a huge suitcase at your door, blocking your way, are you expected to clear your cubby home apartment and safeguard the suitcase ???

ecureilx shows us the light quite well, and the typical Singaporean attitude, though if it was his suitcase he was talking about being kicked out of the way, it would be another matter So I see it as a typical response from what kind of person?.


Firstly, i am not a Singaporean .. and secondly, I was managing a entertainement place .. and I can tell you .. again, if I kept safeguarding left behinds, I need to rent a warehouse .. no kidding ..

Maybe the shop keeper kept it for their own kids for all we know and had no intentions of returning it though that would be stealing right ecureilx? Or maybe not in Singapore!


I dunno about this shop keeper, but I mentioned before .. the rule is not to use left behinds - and lest be accused of stealing (as you have blatantly proved. . ) but discard it if it is not considering a high value item ..

So ecureilx i would love to see your reaction at the hawker, if the old auntie comes along and tosses your meal in the bin, while you are relieving yourself in the toilet :lol: Now now, tell the truth! How would the typical Singaporean react? :P


I don't expect the coffee shop aunty to keep my food, left unattended .. after all, the place if to be used for patrons, and if a patron disappears, the shop is supposed to call 999 and locate the patron or call for a fortune teller to see what happened to the patron ?? Happens to me, and happened to me .. I have ordered coffee and a call comes in that somebody is going to pick me up for an urgent work and I ain't got time to pack it or take it .. so am I supposd to come back 1 hour later and expect the coffee to be safeguarded ?? And talk of it .. if you visit bars, you know .. bars make money by selling drinks, not safeguard a miser's single beer for a night .. makes sense ??

Seems you have lost what I was trying to define ... and you picked me apart as a silly minded ... un-civic minded, petty minded singaporean .. :D :D

What a lot of people fail to grasp is, especially those who come from 'large countries', is that, Singapore being small, space is at a premium. Back home, if somebody was visiting my grandpa, and wanted to leave the car behind for a month, it would be ok .. in Singapore ?? Do you catch my drift or still think I have to foot the bill for somebody parking a car in my park ? Which is not free and I have to pay ??

I could go on .. a Singaporean colleague went to visit my home town, for a retreat, and he was wondering aloud if all the people in my hometown are mad, as everybody had been telling him to stay in their place for a day to do sight seeing .. which doesn't happen in Singapore when you are living in a two bedroom apartment and both rooms are occupied ..

And only when I told him that back home, space not being at a premium, people always have a guest room did it occur to him that it was normal in my place .. to offer visitors to put up if they wanna stay over ..

Anyway, me thinks that the thread has drifted wide off. .

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Postby ksl » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 5:56 pm

ecureilx, No offence meant at all. I was well aware that you was not a Singaporean, I was also well aware that Asians, tend to be very different in Asian societies, than they are in Western societies.

It's all about experiences no matter where we are living, and as MUM put it, she just so happens to be half Asian and explained the difference in societies.

So we are talking about in general and commonsense situations, so just lets see if we can distinguish the difference has, you tend to explain it in a not so commonsense way, but from an impolite money making way which is also fine has you have a business to run and you want to save space and not waste your time!

This is also hypothetical now so don't take it personal, So lets just say you have this bar, and right next door is my bar, and I do the opposite to what you are suggesting.

Lets look at it from the consumers point of view! Every consumer that visits your bar, leaves something, not of great value and so you throw it away, but to them it was sentimental and they become very sad and disappointed that you behaved in such away.

Though right next door the same customers came and also left something of sentimental value, and I just through it in the back, thinking I better keep it for a couple of days, just in case the customer does come back, like a $2 umbrella, no big deal, its cheap but useful. One customer leaves a cheetah too, but that isn't useful, though it is obviously a child's, I better keep that too for a while.

Where do you think all your customers will end up drinking? Is it better to go bankrupt because of no customers, or is it better to go bankrupt with no space becuase of all the left over goods.

Now lets see what is at stake, A good reputation V's a bad reputation, so which one matters most, short term gain or long term investment?

You sow the seeds you reap the fruit, you try to take the fruit without knowing how to sow the seeds, because everyone is doing it that way, you will be the last one on the ladder of success.

I've been coming and going from Asia since 1970, surprisingly on my return to Singapore in 2004, I meet up with an Indian that I knew from 1970, still doing his trade, with excellence polite customer care, with awareness of customer needs his portfolio of customers around the world is his evidence of success built on good commonsense.

So I am not pointing fingers, or condemning Singaporeans, as commonsense is a world wide issue, though it is easy to pick up on issues that are repetitive and annoying for consumers.

If i owned the hawker centre, I would advise the cleaning lady not to throw peoples food away, or their coffee, until a reasonable time was given, what is reasonable when customers are waiting for seats? 5 minutes 10 minutes, even you yourself have adopted the way of life, of taking the phone call and leaving your coffee or your food.

Instead of telling the cleaner not to touch your coffee, or food has you are going to make a phone call and will come back.

I would well and truly be p----- O-- if you was to throw my beer out, :P Though that would never happen if i was alone in the bar, has i have the commonsense to say, don't touch my beer as i am going to the loo or i would ask someone to watch it for me. It can also happen in the West too, though the barman would surely give you another if it was his mistake in most circumstances, customer service means he wants me to come back.

Communication does work wonders though commonsense rules the day!

Another good example is our Taxi driver on here, who is going out of his way to inform expats of the pro's and cons of Taxi's in Singapore, he's giving extremely good service, because he's a smart learner with interest for the consumer!

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Postby poodlek » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 6:35 pm

+1

Key points here: reasonable amount of time and perceived value.

The shopkeeper would have to be pretty dumb to think that a well-worn child's toy had no value to the child, whatever its actual material value was. To not keep it even 24 hours was a pretty callous thing to do. Should she be legally responsible for its loss? No, but she should be held socially responsible. It would have been a very simple and easy act of courtesy to keep the toy a day or two, which would have cost her little, and helped her to build customer loyalty.

When I used to work at Starbucks we had a policy for lost and found (sbux has a policy for *everything*) which was to keep items in a drawer for a week and then either toss or donate to Goodwill/Salvation Army. The drawer was very rarely full, so we often kept things much longer than a week, only emptying the drawer when it got too full. Seems pretty simple to me.

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Postby ecureilx » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 6:42 pm

Hi KSL

To cut you a quick reply before I bug off from my computer for the day ..

1) I can refer a few bars, which are extremely crowded, but bleeding money due to customers nursing a single Tiger mug all night long .. well, the ones that have staff on the ball, when a customer is near the end, prompt him .. or clear it if he leaves the mug without putting a coaster on it and let some bigger drinker occupy the place - they do roaring business, and also, the guys who drink more .. tend to drink morreeeeee .. than those who are stuck at the first mug that is warm and fuzzy and doesn't make the guy go down the drunkenness road .. equates to lossssss

I can personally drop names on the bars .. and I can tell you .. you can spend a whole night with a single beer ..

2) if you gonna think that retaining customers things will bring in customer .. man .. you dunno .. I am that close to seeing somebody leave their own body behind when leaving a bar, and not remembering where they left it .. Things I have seen left behind include: Fresh Groceris (no kidding - people go buying vegetables and then want a beer, and then the veg is forgotten), laptops, brand new clothes / shirts / dresses, frozen food, beer bought but probably draft sounded better and then the purchase was left in the locker and forgotten .. and once, a Brand LV bag (no kdding .. ) and spectacles .. and bracelets, watches, rings. . of course the last few are dropped accidentally .. and are not forgotten .. and am yet to hear anybody ever call the police for their own stupidity ... of forgetting things ..

3) as for taxi driver, I am deeply offended: the taxi drivers do that because they have nothing else to do. .. :D :D A a lonely drive does miracles to their PR skills .. and they get to advice you on everything .. including GF, money, rental, schooling .. etc. etc. . and don't tell me you have a 'regular driver' :D If you too drive the whole day, you too would become a verbal diarrhea .. and had occasions when I had to tell the driver to let me talk to my visitor .. when the drivers insist on interrupting our conversation to describe landmarks, and also ask how much is my pay .. etc. etc. .. and God forbid, if I am in the taxi with a foreign looking lady .. the conversation can get pretty irritating .. to the extent of encroaching your personal space. . not at all drivers are like that .. but .. more than half do, and I can't blame them .. considering they can't smoke or do anything to stay away ..

And taxi drivers can take 'PR' to a greater height ..

Look up Stomp - there is an article of a driver going the 'extra mile. .. ' only so it happened that it was a woman ...

Of course .. no offense .. I have littered my words with a few smileys ..

And again I think, we lost the thread a while ago .. :D
Last edited by ecureilx on Mon, 06 Jun 2011 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby ecureilx » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 6:47 pm

poodlek wrote:When I used to work at Starbucks we had a policy for lost and found (sbux has a policy for *everything*) which was to keep items in a drawer for a week and then either toss or donate to Goodwill/Salvation Army. The drawer was very rarely full, so we often kept things much longer than a week, only emptying the drawer when it got too full. Seems pretty simple to me.


Starbuck = American = suing culture .. for the fear of being hung with a massive lawsuit .. probably the lawyers read the fine print and told that 1 week is reasonable time to retain ..

I would love to see how long Starbuck will keep a 4 foot tall toy .. as an experiment .. and maybe 3 of us walk in, and leave the three under the pretext of leaving to the toilet and then forgetting .. and see how many could be stashed into the drawer ..

Ah, by the way, I don't think a drawer could hold a toy that is bigger than a Great dane .. :D

And read up ... the contention is not that the shop owner threw it away .. he left it outside his shop .. maybe he was not planning to open the shop the next day and thought that leaving it out is the best course as anybody who can invoke the law to call the cops would have come looking for it immediately than the next day ?? Yes ???

I dunno .. and neither would you .. :D

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Postby poodlek » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 7:00 pm

ecureilx wrote:
poodlek wrote:When I used to work at Starbucks we had a policy for lost and found (sbux has a policy for *everything*) which was to keep items in a drawer for a week and then either toss or donate to Goodwill/Salvation Army. The drawer was very rarely full, so we often kept things much longer than a week, only emptying the drawer when it got too full. Seems pretty simple to me.


Starbuck = American = suing culture .. for the fear of being hung with a massive lawsuit .. probably the lawyers read the fine print and told that 1 week is reasonable time to retain ..



Perhaps the policy was borne out of a desire not to be sued, I could never know that. Anyway this was in Canada, there is a cultural difference there on that point. The point is it's common courtesy to keep safe someone's lost valuable. If it were a person's wallet with his/her credit cards and ID inside would you think it reasonable to put on the mailbox outside? In the hypothetical situation with the Great Dane sized toys, I would certainly have noticed who brought them in and would do my best to contact them to pick them up. Although they wouldn't have fit in a drawer, I wouldn't imagine a toy that large being a cheap item, and would definitely keep it around for a while. And not out of fear of being sued, just common courtesy. Where does courtesy fit into your worldview??

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 7:06 pm

poodlek wrote:Key points here: reasonable amount of time and perceived value.

The shopkeeper would have to be pretty dumb to think that a well-worn child's toy had no value to the child, whatever its actual material value was. To not keep it even 24 hours was a pretty callous thing to do. Should she be legally responsible for its loss? No, but she should be held socially responsible.


How do you hold someone 'socially responsible'? What does it entail?

You overlook that the lowly shop-keeper, from your lofty perch, might indeed simply be stupid. But as far as I know being stupid is not something with which to involve the police.

Edit: typo

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 7:30 pm

PoodleK
And not out of fear of being sued, just common courtesy. Where does courtesy fit into your worldview??

I think you've identified the issue here PoodleK, there is no courtesy in SG. Or put another way, the only courtesy that exists is practiced simply in order to increase profits.

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Postby poodlek » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 8:28 pm

JR8 wrote:

How do you hold someone 'socially responsible'? What does it entail?


"That wasn't very nice, what did you do that for? You couldn't have held onto it for 24 hours?"

JR8 wrote:You overlook that the lowly shop-keeper, from your lofty perch, might indeed simply be stupid. But as far as I know being stupid is not something with which to involve the police.



True enough. She did say she thought it was a dead cat. And I didn't advocate involving the police against the shopkeeper. I don't think Barri did either. I took her going to the police as a way of teaching her daughter how to locate a valuable, not to punish the shopkeeper. It was the police officer that suggested suing.

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Postby ecureilx » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 10:21 pm

poodlek wrote:If it were a person's wallet with his/her credit cards and ID inside would you think it reasonable to put on the mailbox outside? In the hypothetical situation with the Great Dane sized toys, I would certainly have noticed who brought them in and would do my best to contact them to pick them up. Although they wouldn't have fit in a drawer, I wouldn't imagine a toy that large being a cheap item, and would definitely keep it around for a while. And not out of fear of being sued, just common courtesy. Where does courtesy fit into your worldview??


Not in Singapore, but in other countries, I saw some guy pick up a dropped wallet and lo and behold, the owner screamed robbery .. no, the owner was not doing a scam .. and it took the cops to stop the beating of the poor samaritan .. and in Singapore, once I saw a wallet dropped in the bus, and when I tried to hand over to the driver, the driver smiled and said, to drop it in front of the windscreen, and he said he dare not touch it and will get a 'officer' from the depot to record the item.. and he explained, that the last time (I didnt make it up) it was a foreigner, who upon having gone to the lost and found and found the wallet accused the driver of having robbed money .. Maybe now the driver will not be so kiasu considering that the busses have CCTV

And where does courtesy fit in my life ?? As long as you are not forcing it down my throat and making me inconvenience myself i will do everything and more to go the extra mile ..

When you start to enforce rules and laws and throw a 12 inch thick legal document in my face, to force me to be courteous to you - I will look the other side when I see you walking to an open drain, lest be accused of not risking my neck and jumping in with you .. and my attempts to throw a rope be perceived as insufficient .. and you sue me instead .. I rather suddenly realise my vision is bad and I can't see what goes on a few feet away .. (oh sorry, no elf and safety rules eh ?? ) :D :D

And again you missed the point: When space is at a premium in Singapore .. :D :D

Night night ..

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Postby ecureilx » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 10:27 pm

JR8 wrote:I think you've identified the issue here PoodleK, there is no courtesy in SG. Or put another way, the only courtesy that exists is practiced simply in order to increase profits.


Ah come on .. maybe you should change your hangout :D :D

Come hang around my vines :D :D

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 11:28 pm

ecureilx wrote:
JR8 wrote:I think you've identified the issue here PoodleK, there is no courtesy in SG. Or put another way, the only courtesy that exists is practiced simply in order to increase profits.


Ah come on .. maybe you should change your hangout :D :D

Come hang around my vines :D :D


I believe it is called 'fire for effect' :)

Point is that PoodleK seems to be be judging the shop-keeper as if they have, or should have, the same values as he has. It's a non-starter.

I am reminded of the analogy of designing your home security (door and window locks etc). Rather than catering for the predictable, you must cater for the insane. You have to think not like yourself, rationally, but how someone desperate and irrational might.

Suggesting the shop-keeper show common courtesy or be held 'socially responsible' makes the mistake of thinking the shop-keeper gives a to$$ what anyone thinks.

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Postby Barri » Tue, 07 Jun 2011 6:00 am

Indeed like ksl said I was just showing my daughter the common procedure regarding a lost item.

Maybe the difference between me and some of the readers is that I used insurance regulations as reference to "the correct (formal) procedure".

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 07 Jun 2011 4:44 pm

Barri wrote:Indeed like ksl said I was just showing my daughter the common procedure regarding a lost item.


At any point have you told your daughter off for being careless?

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Postby Barri » Tue, 07 Jun 2011 5:50 pm

Afcourse On other times I told her (in various ways) often enough to be mindfull of her things or to keep things save at home.

But then and there in her sorrow? No.
Because I know she will tell that herself enough in her own head, I do not need to add to her pain on a time like that.
Just being there for her and helping her look seemed enough to me.


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