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Flipside
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Postby Flipside » Tue, 31 May 2011 9:22 am

Hi there,

maybe you should try to calm her down and tell her its okay and thats she's growing up. she will soon like more new things and/or you can let her choose a new toy to continue growing up.

findin something like her told that someone threw out would be hard cause if the rubbish collector took it to the junk yard, there's nothing much you can do about it alr.

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Postby JayCee » Tue, 31 May 2011 9:43 am

Barri wrote:I found it indeed a splendid idea :) to pick out a similair looking toy.

I think the middle one looks quite ok: http://www.piasofttoys.com/nederlands1/ ... es/216.jpg

Eh pragmatic :???:
Well I think my daughter learned quite a few things about property law, how to put up a search and how to make a police rapport, the limits of the law where the police is confined to, how friendly the Ghim Moh police was in taking her loss seriously and how many people in her neighbourhood where taking her side and where willing to help her. :)
I think she is already a big step forward in becoming a good member of society. :D


Sounds like she's also had some good lessons in wasting police time too

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ecureilx
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Postby ecureilx » Tue, 31 May 2011 10:14 am

JayCee wrote:Sounds like she's also had some good lessons in wasting police time too


At the risk of being called a bigot, I could possibly think that she is an expat .. and a spoilt one at that .. :D :D

Well, this is Singapore, and the police have a hearts-and-minds program .. !!!!






I like the accusation that the shop guy was heartless .. and yadda yadda .. I could narrow down the OP to a few countries where everything you do is not your mistake .. ;)

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Postby Barri » Tue, 31 May 2011 11:52 am

No the fact remains that Titi was our posession and then property law comes into play.
The question was if the shopowner was in her right to trow away property left behind by a costumer.
According to normal procedure items left behind are at least hold on to for a week.

I assume the standard reaction to a child would be: ok she trew it out, you lost your cheetah, so swallow and buckle/grow up. I buy you a new toy.

All she would learn from that approach is:
-that her pain means nothing
-her parents wont do anything to help her in her distress, or do not know what they can do to help her.
-that losses and grief should be immediatly resolved by buying new stuff
-that her community doesn't care
-that there are no laws to protect her rights
-and that adults have all the rights to do whatever they please.

Well for me personally that is not the message I want to give my daughter.
I rather take every event as a opportunity to teach my daughter about the world.

I am very glad that the Ghim moh police also understood that this was her first contact with the police.
They showed her that the Singapore police took her case seriously regardless of her age.
They took 10 minutes from their busy scedule to make a rapport for a crying girl and told her why and how that comes into the files and they helped her staple her missing flyer right on the message board.

Now as a result my daughter has a very positive feeling regarding the Singapore police and understands that law and order is there to help the people, no matter what age.
She now knows that the community does care, from all the heartwarming reactions of the people and police in Ghim moh who where willing to help her.
And that is a priceless experience she wil carry with her for the rest of her life.

To my insight too many people do not know enough about the law like they should and therefore go through life feeling helpless and resentfull or maybe even fearfull about the enforcers of laws who are made to protect the people. Also I think that many people do not feel connected to the community where they are living in and that comes all to often with devastating results.

Now I can be sure my daughter is not gonna be one of those people, can you say the same about your children?
Last edited by Barri on Tue, 31 May 2011 12:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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ecureilx
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Postby ecureilx » Tue, 31 May 2011 12:03 pm

Barri wrote:No the fact remains that Titi was our posession and then property law comes into play.
The question was if the shopowner was in her right to trow away property left behind by a costumer. According to normal procedure items left behind are at least hold on to for a week.


Where, pray is this law written down ?? :I am confused ..

I assume the standard reaction would be : ok she trew it out, you lost your cheetah, so swallow and buckle/grow up. I buy you a new toy.


the normal procedure is to not carry around stuff that can be misplaced and expect the world to take care of your belongings :D :D

I am very glad that the Ghim moh police also understood that this was her first contact with the police. They showed her that they took her case seriously regardless of her age. They took 10 minutes from their busy scedule to make a rapport for a crying girl and told her why and how that comes into the files and they helped her staple her missing flyer right on the message board.


Love it .. :D

Did you see the movie Blood Diamond ?? A twist of it ..

TIA, ma'am .. TIA, This is ASIA





if I am the shopowner, and you expected me to take care of lost of found stuff .. no way ..

When I worked in the bars, we used to get a lot of people crying out for leaving behind their bags, and expecting the establishment to safe-keep 'em.

Phones, Shoes (wonder how they walked out .. ), curious, jewellery - some fake, most real gold, rings, fancy hairbband, and a lot of plastic bags - branded of course, and shopping stuff like brand new clothese.. etc. etc. .. And, except those we consider high value - like phones, wallets, jewellery, everything was thrown - if not, we may have needed to rent a warehouse to store our annual lost-and-found collections ..

And to discourage the staff from going on Scavenger hunts, the items thrown were really thrown to garbage .. lest somebody accuse the staff of stealing, when seen using the left behind stuff.

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Postby x9200 » Tue, 31 May 2011 12:33 pm

Barri wrote:No the fact remains that Titi was our posession and then property law comes into play.
The question was if the shopowner was in her right to trow away property left behind by a costumer.
According to normal procedure items left behind are at least hold on to for a week.

Apart from the unheard "normal procedure" you brought in a fair point but please explain what kind of report did you file in the police?

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Postby earthfriendly » Tue, 31 May 2011 12:37 pm

Barri wrote:All she would learn from that approach is that her pain means nothing, her parents wont do anything to help her in her distress, or do not know what they can do to help her, that losses and grief should be imediatly resolved by buying new stuff, that her community doesn't care and that adults have all the rights to do whatever they please.


Well put! Your daughter is learning about respect first hand from you. You don't get rid of stuff just because it gets in your way and inconvenience you, you try to track down the owner or have a lost and found. We all make mistake and misplace stuff, it does not take all that much effort to help out another fella being.

In Japan, when you misplaced an item you can always come back to the same spot and it will be still be there untouched. Passerbys understand to leave the item alone as the owner may come back for it. It takes a special group of people to build such a community.

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Postby earthfriendly » Tue, 31 May 2011 12:41 pm

x9200 wrote:Apart from the unheard "normal procedure" you brought in a fair point but please explain what kind of report did you file in the police?


Missing person, or shall I say missing animal report :P . I applaud the Ghim Moh police for having the heart and foresight for doing their part in this community-building exercise.

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Postby earthfriendly » Tue, 31 May 2011 12:50 pm

ecureilx wrote:
And to discourage the staff from going on Scavenger hunts, the items thrown were really thrown to garbage .. lest somebody accuse the staff of stealing, when seen using the left behind stuff. [/size]


I think the point above just proved the point below. The fundamental lack of trust and sense of community. And trust building starts with ME, which is what Barri is doing. She teaching her daughter that mom can be trusted to do the right thing, and not the expedient thing, which was the route taken by the shopkeeper. How hard is it to establish an area of lost and found. It does not need to be actively managed. Just toss the lost item in there and owner can just do a search thru it themselves.

Barri wrote: Also I think that many people do not feel connected to the community where they are living in and that comes all to often with devastating results.

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Postby ecureilx » Tue, 31 May 2011 2:40 pm

earthfriendly wrote:I think the point above just proved the point below. The fundamental lack of trust and sense of community. And trust building starts with ME, which is what Barri is doing. She teaching her daughter that mom can be trusted to do the right thing, and not the expedient thing, which was the route taken by the shopkeeper. How hard is it to establish an area of lost and found. It does not need to be actively managed. Just toss the lost item in there and owner can just do a search thru it themselves.


You missed the point .. the idea was and is to not to let staff recycle the lost items, than be accused of stealing ..

And for the insistence that it was the shop owners fault for the missing toy .. no comments ..

With space being at a premium, yeah right - I can clear up half my shop space for lost and found and then be happy that I have a lot of silly ang moh who loose things and cry .. :D :D (that was in jest .. )

Are you and the OP related, by any chance ?? the OP, in my eyes, is teaching the child how to make your mistakes somebody' elses, and cops are there to find your missing toy .. and not to be on call for urgent serious crimes .. I would not say anything for the helpful neighbours but cops ??

Well, what do I know - I was brought up the asian way where you own up to your mistakes, and not blame the shop for throwing stuff, and the demanding the cops go looking for your missing toy ..



Keep going :D : D

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Postby earthfriendly » Wed, 01 Jun 2011 10:20 am

Ecurilex, I fully understood your point. Accountability is the beacon of civil society, ain't gonna argue against that.
ecureilx wrote:
Well, what do I know - I was brought up the asian way where you own up to your mistakes, and not blame the shop for throwing stuff, and the demanding the cops go looking for your missing toy ..
Keep going :D : D


Just finished getting $10k worth of flooring installed, we thought it looked too busy and told contractor if we can replaced with different pattern.

Contractor (eastern European) could: "you chinese huh, cannot even make up your mind huh, how come first 2 days you did not mention don't like, now already complete than come back and say you changed mind. You think you Foo Manchu huh? If you want to change, you just have to dish out another $10k. We not gonna give you price break as it is gonna take same amount of effort and material to tear down and install new one. Too bad you out of luck. You make the mistake, now you pay for it."

Or

Contractor could: in very reconciliatory tone "what is it you don't like"
Me "too busy looking, does not calm my mind"
Contractor "but you saw the installation and now it is completed "
Me "Yeah I know, I tried to make myself like it when I thought of the time and expense involved"
Contractor "maybe try putting a rug and furniture on it and it may help"
Blaah..blah....blah...you get the idea.

I am glad that the contractor took the latter approach. I know he will work with me to get the situation corrected rather than "too bad you are out of luck". I will not hesitate to use him the next time.

There's not just one single approach in life. What kind of society do people want to create. People who comes from willing-to-work-things-out-with-you environment tend to be more well-adjusted and because they themselves have been recipients of reasonableness, they themselves tend to be reasonable people. They are also more positive in their outlook in life. They know that the world will not be so quick to pounce on them should they falter. We are not infallibles. We all make mistakes every now and then and need a helping hand.

And what is good for non-Asians are also good for Asians. And we humans have very similar needs, more than we know.

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Postby Barri » Thu, 02 Jun 2011 12:45 am

Me and earthfriendly related?

No not as far as i know but I sure do like his/her ideas on the glue that bind communities together :)

Ha! And you can not label me off as just a "silly" ang moh (please I am just quoting here) since I am half Asian.

I had the same kind of raising in thinking that it is all your own fault and you live with your own mistakes etc etc.

But then I went to study further learned a lot more about laws, rights, obligations and how important a community is and grew out of it.
My parents are people from their generation, they grew up in a war and or just after the war and in those times law and order where not always there.

Since my daughter isn't growing up in a war I do not have to apply that way of thinking on her. Also my daughter has a lot social orientated characteristics so it is logical for me to let her learn to deal with people of her community as early as possible.

Hahaha that is quite a slapstick imagination that I would have demanded the police to put up a search. :D
I am very happy that the police officer and I where both on the same page that this was a learning moment for a young member of society.

Maybe you feel better if you instead of seeing it as "wasting time" see it as educative & preventive youth outreaching community work?

You see the newspapers and tv are filled with serious and horrible crimes what is maybe making some people desensitized but for me it is ok to sometimes also hear about the little things that happen in life.
That keeps us human you know 8-)

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Postby ecureilx » Thu, 02 Jun 2011 1:29 am

Barri wrote:Ha! And you can not label me off as just a "silly" ang moh (please I am just quoting here) since I am half Asian.


so you are asian or became half asian because you grew up in the west ?? Please pardon my ignorance ..

I had the same kind of raising in thinking that it is all your own fault and you live with your own mistakes etc etc.


I implore you to re-read my post, I didn't say live with your mistakes, I said own up to your mistakes, instead of making it somebody else' ... as seem to be the lesson here .. the shop owner, the public, the police man .. the karanguni man .. everybody is at fault other than your kid .. (don't tell that to your kid, but .. no, I don't want my kids to grow up with that kind of attitude .. and expect the state to fix all my problems .. )

Sort of the difference between saying "I was careless and I lost it .. let me try to find it .. " than saying "somebody took it and I want everybody to go and find it .. " well, that was what my grandpa taught me .. and same for instead of saying "x got cheated" his way was "x allowed himself to be cheated, so being naive and not street-smart contributed to his being cheated .. and he has to take ownership of his mistake that blaming everything on the guy who cheated .. " and I could go on .. like blaming the thief for being tempted to remove an item by leaving the door wide open, than being cautious and keeping the door closed in the first place..

Hahaha that is quite a slapstick imagination that I would have demanded the police to put up a search. :D
I am very happy that the police officer and I where both on the same page that this was a learning moment for a young member of society.

Maybe you feel better if you instead of seeing it as "wasting time" see it as educative & preventive youth outreaching community work?






that was excellent use of my tax $ at work .. I aint' a Singaporean, but having made this little land my home for a quarter or more of my life .. I guess I have the right to make that comment .... maybe there should be a tick that says "i allow cops time to be used meaningfully for searching missing toys .." :D :D

Ah, well, I come from a country, where people would be horrified to know somebody wasted the cops time .. and believe the cops are there for to be on call, standby, for emergencies, not to go looking for missing toys ..

Ah well, then again, I am not as influenced as you are ..

Good luck ..


Please do not be offended, I am a bit amazed at your standing up to your point of view .. Good luck ..,

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Postby x9200 » Thu, 02 Jun 2011 8:01 am

Barri wrote:But then I went to study further learned a lot more about laws, rights, obligations and how important a community is and grew out of it.
My parents are people from their generation, they grew up in a war and or just after the war and in those times law and order where not always there.

Good, so let me ask again, what kind of report did you file to the police?
I may add another question, what lesson did you teach the hardware shop owner who disposed your toy?

Hahaha that is quite a slapstick imagination that I would have demanded the police to put up a search. :D

You didn't?

Maybe you feel better if you instead of seeing it as "wasting time" see it as educative & preventive youth outreaching community work?

So far nothing like this emerges from your posts. Lots of pretty chaotic incomplete information pointing at best in different directions.

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Postby Barri » Fri, 03 Jun 2011 11:33 am

1. item was left behind in the shop

2. same night went back looked in area, called the shop: shop closed no answer

3. next morning went back where one of the shopowners told us she trew it out.

4. I asked what time , when, how so I could look for it and why: first reply was I trew it out, second reply I placed it on the letterbox

5. while I called with the cleaning manager of the area my daughter was crying in the shop: the owner who trew it out tried to give her candy, to make her stop crying, said you left it here! and then said I thought it was a dead cat.

6. Then we talked to several cleaners in the area and showed them a picture, I looked in the waste desposal areas in the neighbourhood.

7. Then I went to the police to make a missing item rapport and to inform us regarding the rights we have. According to the police I can ask for a refund or sue. (and no for the ones with a slapstick imagination I do not wish to go that far)

8. made at home with my husband missing flyers with a reward of $50 and posted these with permission of sympathetic shop/hawker keepers around the area where it was supposed to be placed/trewn out. The police helped my daughter to staple the flyer on their message board.

9. posted the flyer here on expat forum

10. checked out the tips I recieved here

11 Now in the meantime my daughter understands that it is unlikely we get her Titi back. On the other hand is she very happy with all the people and the police who tried to help her and has now the intention that she will help the people in her community when they experience trouble.

12 Regarding the shopkeeper I hope that they can make peace together.
But that wil take some more time.


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