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Do you agree:China and America-Rising Dragon, Bleeding Eagle

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Manthink
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Postby Manthink » Wed, 01 Jun 2011 3:38 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Manthink wrote:
Wind In My Hair wrote:"If you can't get your house in order, who are you to preach to me?"


This is one powerful thinking that has great influence upon me.
I am not perfect, hence I do not have an answer to every debate/queries & rebuttal.


So have you ever had a good objective look at your own house? :wink:


Objective is a little too hard a word to use. We are emotional being, rememeber?

Holistically speaking from a social norm perspective, my house is pretty much "in order". There are times, however, we learn along the way and this is a never ending process of learning and self-reflection :wink:

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Postby nakatago » Wed, 01 Jun 2011 3:44 pm

Manthink wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Manthink wrote:
Wind In My Hair wrote:"If you can't get your house in order, who are you to preach to me?"


This is one powerful thinking that has great influence upon me.
I am not perfect, hence I do not have an answer to every debate/queries & rebuttal.


So have you ever had a good objective look at your own house? :wink:


Objective is a little too hard a word to use. We are emotional being, rememeber?

Holistically speaking from a social norm perspective, my house is pretty much "in order". There are times, however, we learn along the way and this is a never ending process of learning and self-reflection :wink:


:???:

All I'm reading right now is vague generalities...

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Postby BillyB » Wed, 01 Jun 2011 3:55 pm

This thread is going off on one giant tangent. Can't we just get back to insulting each other :twisted:

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x9200
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Postby x9200 » Wed, 01 Jun 2011 4:03 pm

BillyB wrote:This thread is going off on one giant tangent. Can't we just get back to insulting each other :twisted:

You have not insulted here enough people to be in a moral position to suggest something like this.

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 01 Jun 2011 4:24 pm

x9200 wrote:
BillyB wrote:This thread is going off on one giant tangent. Can't we just get back to insulting each other :twisted:

You have not insulted here enough people to be in a moral position to suggest something like this.


+1 :lol:

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 01 Jun 2011 5:45 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:a) OTOH addressing every single point results in mega-long posts like this which are tedious for both writer and reader!

True, so I’ll try to keep it brief :)

Judgment is always relative, and this is what's meant by moral relativism. What is right and fair is always judged from a specific POV. In your view (based on rules of debate) you have every right to make that statement, whereas in my view (based on moral authority) you have no right.

But who are you (or anyone else) to judge who has the ‘moral authority’ to discuss a topic? I can’t see how that works. Is there a kinda check-list that Confucianists use to determine it?

Re the burglar analogy, why is it then that in the US and UK, it's the judge or jury that decide punishment and not the criminals themselves? Of course burglars are entitled to their opinions, but which country in the world bases its laws on the views of its criminals?

Sorry I confused you by not being clear enough. I wasn’t suggesting a criminal decide his own punishment, I was only suggesting that a criminal is just as entitled to have an opinion (and express it) on what the punishment for that crime should be.

Do you not concede that they have lost their moral authority to be taken seriously on the subject of law and punishment?

If they are unreformed yes I see where you are going, although I still think a person has a right to express a view even if it risks not being taken seriously. The listener can make up his own mind over what is said based upon his knowledge of the person saying it. But I also believe criminals can reform, and that (for example) the opinion of a reformed criminal should not simply be dismissed as hypocritical, when in fact it is surely better informed than that of the ‘perfect’ Confucianist listener.
(The BBC used to have a reformed major ex-con that they’d wheel-in to the news programmes to discuss and opine when ever there was a major breaking news crime in the UK. In a Confucianist country would that happen?)


A more typical example from this thread:
a) You Chinese people are corrupt.
b) But you Americans are corrupt too.
It is not an unrelated comparison, and while the scale of the corruption may differ as X9200 pointed out, the basic lack of authority from which to preach still applies ie "If you can't get your house in order, who are you to preach to me?"

This ‘having authority’ seems to be at the heart of it. I am still at a loss as to how someone gains or loses authority in Confucianist eyes, or judges who else has it. Could you give me examples of what in your opinion I do not have authority to debate?

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Postby Manthink » Wed, 01 Jun 2011 5:47 pm

nakatago wrote: :???:

All I'm reading right now is vague generalities...


LOL!...sorry.
I was trying to avoid getting too specific on the subject while trying to answer sms question without losing the original intend of the thread...

okay...Image

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x9200
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Postby x9200 » Wed, 01 Jun 2011 7:34 pm

JR8 wrote:
Wind In My Hair wrote:Do you not concede that they have lost their moral authority to be taken seriously on the subject of law and punishment?

[color=blue]If they are unreformed yes I see where you are going, although I still think a person has a right to express a view even if it risks not being taken seriously. The listener can make up his own mind over what is said based upon his knowledge of the person saying it. But I also believe criminals can reform, and that (for example) the opinion of a reformed criminal should not simply be dismissed as hypocritical, when in fact it is surely better informed than that of the ‘perfect’ Confucianist listener.

Methinks it may have nothing to do with morality and even if it has this is not about the moral judgment of the guilty person. You should not be a judge in your own trial (you are unlikely to be objective) so I believe it is more general and likely purely pragmatic.

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 01 Jun 2011 7:55 pm

x9200 wrote:Methinks it may have nothing to do with morality and even if it has this is not about the moral judgment of the guilty person. You should not be a judge in your own trial (you are unlikely to be objective) so I believe it is more general and likely purely pragmatic.


I'm losing the plot now I think. What aspect of this Confucianist 'moral authority' is not concerned with morality?

I am not suggesting anyone be their own judge, simply that they have a right to give their opinion, there is a big difference.

I have to say that I am finding this concept of the 'Confucianist debating style' absolutely impenetrable. Which is strange, as I can understand just about every other concept I have encountered I think (understand, rather than necessarily agree with), apart from Schrodinger's Cat :). We've been through it several times, and yet I still don't feel one inch closer to seeing what it's all about. :?

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Re: Do you agree:China and America-Rising Dragon, Bleeding E

Postby Manthink » Wed, 01 Jun 2011 7:56 pm

JayCee wrote:I've not read such a load of nationalistic, propaganda horsesh*t in a long time. Just to pick out a few diamonds:

Btw I'm not American and I'm marrying a girl from China soon, and even she can see through the bullsh*t written in this article


Congratulation on your impending marriage.

About your questions on facts about China try this link http://www.gapminder.org

It is run by Hans Rosling with collaboration with Google.
A very powerful visualization tool that may answer some of the questions you had posted about China and the world as seen from statistical POV gathered in the last 200 hundreds years.

Who's Hans Rosling?
Here is his intro during his 2009 TED speech in India. Notice him sharing how his short formative years in India changed his perception forever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiK5-oAaeUs
Image

I hope I am not being vague on the above.   :) 

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Re: Do you agree:China and America-Rising Dragon, Bleeding E

Postby BillyB » Wed, 01 Jun 2011 8:23 pm

Manthink wrote:
JayCee wrote:I've not read such a load of nationalistic, propaganda horsesh*t in a long time. Just to pick out a few diamonds:

Btw I'm not American and I'm marrying a girl from China soon, and even she can see through the bullsh*t written in this article


Congratulation on your impending marriage.

About your questions on facts about China try this link http://www.gapminder.org

It is run by Hans Rosling with collaboration with Google.
A very powerful visualization tool that may answer some of the questions you had posted about China and the world as seen from statistical POV gathered in the last 200 hundreds years.

Who's Hans Rosling?
Here is his intro during his 2009 TED speech in India. Notice him sharing how his short formative years in India changed his perception forever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiK5-oAaeUs
Image

I hope I am not being vague on the above.   :) 


Here's something for you to ponder:

http://www.transparency.org/policy_rese ... 10/results

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Wed, 01 Jun 2011 9:59 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:True, based on my reading of what you have written thus far. There would, in fact, be no forum either as apparently, the Confucian method would preclude any meaningful discussion, thereby eliminating any need for the forum. :-|

I concede :) that it wouldn't work on this forum. You know what an interesting social experiment would be? Removing the quote function. It would be interesting to see how that changes the nature of discussions since the ability to directly rebutt a point would be much more difficult.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Wed, 01 Jun 2011 10:01 pm

x9200 wrote:
BillyB wrote:This thread is going off on one giant tangent. Can't we just get back to insulting each other :twisted:

You have not insulted here enough people to be in a moral position to suggest something like this.

:lol: I agree!

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Wed, 01 Jun 2011 10:15 pm

JR8 wrote:But who are you (or anyone else) to judge who has the ‘moral authority’ to discuss a topic? I can’t see how that works. Is there a kinda check-list that Confucianists use to determine it?
We make our own judgments don't we? You can judge that someone has poor debating skill, and I can judge that someone has little moral authority. There's no checklist, just a simple question: do you model what you preach?

BTW, I am not a Confucianist nor am I defending that world view. I was just making an observation after seeing a repeated pattern, and suggesting an explanation.

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 01 Jun 2011 10:39 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:We make our own judgments don't we? You can judge that someone has poor debating skill, and I can judge that someone has little moral authority. There's no checklist, just a simple question: do you model what you preach?

I think this is another difference. The orientals seem to perceive the occidentals simply expressing an opinion as 'preaching', 'criticism', 'demanding', or trying to 'change something' when it isn't.

I'm starting to wonder whether this Confucianist 'method of debate' exists. Or whether it is perhaps simply a mask for ego and face, i.e. 'You do not show me enough respect and/or I think you are lower than me, so I refuse to engage in debate with you'.


BTW, I am not a Confucianist nor am I defending that world view. I was just making an observation after seeing a repeated pattern, and suggesting an explanation.

Absolutely, and in my book you are entitled and qualified to make that observation :wink:



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