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Do you agree:China and America-Rising Dragon, Bleeding Eagle

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Manthink
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Postby Manthink » Fri, 27 May 2011 7:53 pm

oeloel wrote:
Manthink wrote:And mind you, corruption/scam/cheaters/con-men are part & parcel of any free economy

China is just a student in these area.


I am not sure if China is a student in the free economy thing.
But they do learn fast. Very fast.

How about starting with innovative marketing to get more eyeballs at an on-going convention ? Did I say cut-throat market? :wink:
Image[/img]

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Postby Strong Eagle » Fri, 27 May 2011 7:57 pm

Manthink wrote:
Strong Eagle wrote:these experienced investors (Singaporean Chinese), who also thought they knew the financial ropes in China, found themselves with none of their investment and no property... all taken by the Chinese 'partner', with no recourse available under the sham that passes for Chinese courts. I've heard dozens of stories to illustrate just this one example of corrupt ethics. All in English.


I am curious:

Were your so-called experienced investors able to establish 关系 [guanxi] with the right people in China?

Why are the communication/contract in English? Where they able to converse with the locals in 普通话 ?[Mandarin].

Obviously your investor friends had a lot to learn when comes to investing in cut-throat market like China.

And mind you, corruption/scam/cheaters/con-men are part & parcel of any free economy...not just in "Communist" China.


That's a laugh mate. The whole thing. Well educated Chinese Singaporeans dealing with Chinese nationals. What the hell do you think they spoke? Yiddish?

You cannot escape the fact that China is corrupt from top to bottom. Only massive export growth has masked this. Any US company... hell... why leave it there... any US, EU, UK company dealing in China knows fully well about corruption, and the fine line they tread with non accountable Chinese Communist Party apparatchiks.

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Postby Brah » Sat, 28 May 2011 12:46 am

Oh goody, another one. Waiting for the fire-fight followed by self-destruct death-spiral to the ground in a smoke trail. Then splat, then silence.

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JR8
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Postby JR8 » Sat, 28 May 2011 2:15 am

Brah wrote:Oh goody, another one. Waiting for the fire-fight followed by self-destruct death-spiral to the ground in a smoke trail. Then splat, then silence.


+1 yah I'm enjoying it too, been a long time :)

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Postby oeloel » Sat, 28 May 2011 9:26 pm

Manthink wrote:
oeloel wrote:
Manthink wrote:And mind you, corruption/scam/cheaters/con-men are part & parcel of any free economy

China is just a student in these area.


I am not sure if China is a student in the free economy thing.
But they do learn fast. Very fast.

How about starting with innovative marketing to get more eyeballs at an on-going convention ? Did I say cut-throat market? :wink:
Image[/img]

Maybe that's true. China owes its progress to "trainer", and needs to spend long time in catching up with his "counterparties" in playing tricks.

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JR8
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Postby JR8 » Sat, 28 May 2011 9:50 pm

Oh deary me, are the 10 cent army regrouping? :roll:

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Postby oeloel » Sat, 28 May 2011 10:21 pm

Haha, {vulgarity removed by moderator}, How much you earned?

You were presently doing okay until this post. Now your are history - moderator

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Postby BillyB » Sat, 28 May 2011 10:28 pm

JR8 wrote:Oh deary me, are the 10 cent army regrouping? :roll:


Every village has an idiot.....

Batteries probably ran out on their PSP's or they finished their colouring by numbers book.

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Postby JR8 » Sat, 28 May 2011 10:45 pm

oeloel wrote:Haha, bitch, How much you earned?


Enough to retire comfortably at 35 and not dick about doing desperate eMBAs and the like.

You know, like what your perfect dream would be, that I accept happened to me largely by luck, is what you sweat your nuts off for but will never attain. It's got to suck being you.

:wave:

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ksl
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Postby ksl » Sun, 29 May 2011 11:41 am

Manthink;corruption/scam/cheaters/con-men are part & parcel of any free economy...not just in "Communist" China.
I'll take odds on mainland Chinese being the worst in the world, for ethics and poisoning their own people out of greed on a large scale, government officials and guanxi relationships all included.

Having lived in Beijing in the early 90's, and having a number of guanxi connections, and family relations from pre 1949 days, not to mention the World Bank and the business rsik factor, along with all the events of Taiwanese businessmen being ripped off too...I would say caution is the word wouldn't you! Guanxi being a fundamental starting point proves nothing until experience proves otherwise.

In China the westerner and others have always been fair game at the expense of the Chinese ethical behaviour, in which it will take generations to repair. Of course corruption happens the world over, it can and is measured statistically, and like the old saying goes, high the risk, high the returns, legally speaking too.

That isn't to say one shouldn't invest in China, you just have to be well prepared and understand the cultural differences, guanxi is not always a good thing but it helps in most circumstances, and my own friendships within the Chinese community put friendship well above the $....Which I find would discourage even many western relatives.

Meaning that my guanxi friendships are quite reliable up to an unknown point. After that who knows, the weather blows in different directions.

In terms of investing in Countries one needs to weigh up the pro's and cons, the risk factors determine the way. Then you decide if and when you can afford to lose :lol:

The Chinese are still learning the difference between short term greed and long term investment, honesty and trustworthiness rules no matter what creed or colour, though much damage is very apparent in mainland China for small investors getting robbed of their investments. Only large MNC have the financial backing to follow through with counter claims, guanxi and paybacks.

I've even seen mainland Chinese cheating their own generous relatives in the Republic of China, through corrupt practises, now that is sad and quite appalling that greed can be so evil.

The legal structure leaves much to be desired, and it's the same in many emerging markets, SE has probably first hand experience of that too in his line of business. Risk assesment is always being updated!

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Postby Manthink » Tue, 31 May 2011 11:51 am

ksl wrote:I'll take odds on mainland Chinese being the worst in the world, for ethics and poisoning their own people out of greed on a large scale, government officials and guanxi relationships all included.


Beats every thing just by simply having the experience living in China for a period, doesn't it?

Like I said, there are liars and cheaters that one need to deal with, from Wall Street fraudsters to mainland Chinese ladies seduction traps which you yourself had observed.

I am curious did you ever return to China after your close shave with the authorities since the 1989 4th Jun?

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 31 May 2011 3:40 pm

Manthink wrote:I am curious did you ever return to China after your close shave with the authorities since the 1989 4th Jun?


KSL said he was there in the early 90s. Are you suggesting he was a Tiananmen Square protestor or something? :?

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Tue, 31 May 2011 6:09 pm

I finally find time to read this long thread, all prepared for an education on China... and find the usual mudfight going on. Reminds me of Rudyard Kipling's refrain: "East and East and West is West and never the twain shall meet" - guess not much has changed since 1889 when he wrote that.

Plus it seems any talk about China would be doing the OP's homework for him... so that kind of limits us to the mudfight or nothing huh?

Maybe I could just make a comment at the meta-argument level, ie discuss how the arguments are being made rather than partake in the arguments themselves. Here goes:

---------

The western side of this fight naturally adopts the Socratic approach to argument, which requires point for point rebuttal. Failure to address specific points raised is taken as a sign of lower intelligence.

The eastern side of this fight naturally leans towards the Confucian approach of being a moral example. Any criticism of another when one is not oneself perfect is taken as hypocrisy.

This pattern is becoming clearer to me after so many threads of this nature: the argument goes nowhere because the very modes of argument used are different. One side stops listening because it deems the other unintelligent and having nothing useful to say. The other side stops listening because it deems the other hypocritical and having no right to condemn when it is itself a poor example.

It's like trying to communicate with two different languages, thinking we understand each other. We speak the same verbal language (English) but have vastly different mental languages or models and so interpret the arguments very differently.

Incidentally I think both sides have made very valid points, though I found myself having to change mental models in order to separately appreciate each side's POV.

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 31 May 2011 7:01 pm

You know I think some newbies turn up and just start off on the wrong foot. It is a culture clash, and to be expected on a cross-cultural forum. If they do not realise it pronto it is a slippery slope and they go nowhere. It is not only done by Asians. A newbie westerner did this week as well (in my opinion), but seems to have rehabilitated herself by ‘calming down’ her style.

Trouble with the OP was, posting an article, with no views or opinion of your own is a very bad start. It would be presumptuous to set a debate and stand back on your first post. It was odds-on a homework question and it appeared the OP was wanting have others do their work for them. It then transpired that it was not a school-kid but the OP is doing an MBA, which makes it worse, as he is apparently attempting to cheat rather than thinking for himself.

I would have thought in a quality MBA essay one would take an article like that, discuss both the aspects that one agrees and disagrees with, and then lead to a reasoned personal opinion. The OP didn’t do that, rather after being shunned for his cut/paste of homework, he simply went into polemic-mode. I am often struck by how much more sensitive Asians appear to be about perceived criticism of them, their country, their race etc., than non-Asians are.

I don’t take failure to address points as a sign of lower intelligence. I take it as a sign that the other party cannot argue a point and hence is conceding it. It makes for a much better debate if such points are gracefully acknowledged, but of course ego being what it is...

‘The other side stops listening because it deems the other hypocritical and having no right to condemn when it is itself a poor example.’ Is this how it is? Surely that would be what a westerner would consider moral relativism, ‘You say our XYZ is bad, but it’s not as bad as your ABC (therefore your point is invalid)’, again generally considered an invalid debating technique.

p.s. Should you change your name to BabelFishInMyEar? :wink:

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Postby x9200 » Tue, 31 May 2011 7:56 pm

JR8 wrote:I don’t take failure to address points as a sign of lower intelligence. I take it as a sign that the other party cannot argue a point and hence is conceding it.

Exactly same perception here. If this was on intelligence then the emotional only.
Failure to address all the opponents points is also not a discussion failure, but hardly addressing any of them is. Overall the debate line adopted by OP appeared to me as of somebody not able to formulate his own opinions. This was in line with the propaganda like language basically consisting of some fixed phrases or clichéd arguments.
Also, both of the opponents appeared to look at the things in one dimension only. One murder is equal to 1000 murders. Perhaps this comes from the Confucian approach.


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