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Do you agree:China and America-Rising Dragon, Bleeding Eagle

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Postby ksl » Wed, 01 Jun 2011 10:56 pm

I'm a long way from being an Academic, though after reading the OP's post, I feel the standards are dropping drastically, the post lacks research, and understanding on too many points to list here. I almost feel worried about Medical biotechnology if that is from a PhD.

There is only one thing that is sure no matter where we live and who is in control. Risk is the word and the likelihood of ASEAN being anything of real substance in the next 30 years is also a dream in the making.
http://beri.com/ Communism V's Freedom come on, they have had a taste now, there's no going back as the elders recognise it. But how to satisfy the greed and wipe out corruption will take another 200 years at least.

I've deleted the other 10 pages, to keep it short and to avoid SMS's verbal abuse :roll: :P Actually he makes me look twice, and it's only then that i realise he's right :-|
Last edited by ksl on Wed, 01 Jun 2011 11:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Wed, 01 Jun 2011 11:20 pm

JR8 wrote:I think this is another difference. The orientals seem to perceive the occidentals simply expressing an opinion as 'preaching', 'criticism', 'demanding', or trying to 'change something' when it isn't.

You're right, it's a difference in perception.

JR8 wrote:I'm starting to wonder whether this Confucianist 'method of debate' exists. Or whether it is perhaps simply a mask for ego and face, i.e. 'You do not show me enough respect and/or I think you are lower than me, so I refuse to engage in debate with you'.

a) I repeat, there is no Confucianist method of debate that I know of. How can non-debate be a method of debate? Sigh, forget it.
b) Yes sometimes there is an element of ego and face. Not everything can be blamed on ego and face though. There can be other factors at play.
c) For 'orientals', it's often the opposite - if I respect someone I will not openly contradict him even if I think he's wrong.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Wed, 01 Jun 2011 11:49 pm

x9200 wrote:Probably asking a rudimentary question showing my ignorance but how the Confucian debate deals with the fact that nobody and nothing is perfect?

Usually by criticising oneself (or an extension of) but not another.

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 02 Jun 2011 2:27 am

Wind In My Hair wrote:
x9200 wrote:Probably asking a rudimentary question showing my ignorance but how the Confucian debate deals with the fact that nobody and nothing is perfect?

Usually by criticising oneself (or an extension of) but not another.


So if there were such a thing as a Confucian discussion forum, you would only be permitted to criticise what you had written yourself? The sound of one hand clapping.

Visions of a Monty Python sketch...

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Postby x9200 » Thu, 02 Jun 2011 8:18 am

JR8 wrote:
x9200 wrote:Methinks it may have nothing to do with morality and even if it has this is not about the moral judgment of the guilty person. You should not be a judge in your own trial (you are unlikely to be objective) so I believe it is more general and likely purely pragmatic.


I'm losing the plot now I think. What aspect of this Confucianist 'moral authority' is not concerned with morality?

I am sorry. This is my fault. I used your message to address along with you the original point of W.I.M.H.: Do you not concede that they have lost their moral authority to be taken seriously on the subject of law and punishment? I do not think it is because of their moral authority.


I have to say that I am finding this concept of the 'Confucianist debating style' absolutely impenetrable. Which is strange, as I can understand just about every other concept I have encountered I think (understand, rather than necessarily agree with), apart from Schrodinger's Cat :). We've been through it several times, and yet I still don't feel one inch closer to seeing what it's all about. :?

I'm having some problems too. I think the Confucian debate hardly applicable to this sort of discussion we typically take part in (not only here). My crippled working understanding of such discussion is to have it as per normal but to use no confrontational or critical remarks (unless you are morally perfect or close to it).

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Postby x9200 » Thu, 02 Jun 2011 8:31 am

Wind In My Hair wrote:
x9200 wrote:Probably asking a rudimentary question showing my ignorance but how the Confucian debate deals with the fact that nobody and nothing is perfect?

Usually by criticising oneself (or an extension of) but not another.

Nobody at all or only inside the discussion group?

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Thu, 02 Jun 2011 11:13 am

JR8 wrote:I have to say that I am finding this concept of the 'Confucianist debating style' absolutely impenetrable. Which is strange, as I can understand just about every other concept I have encountered I think (understand, rather than necessarily agree with), apart from Schrodinger's Cat :). We've been through it several times, and yet I still don't feel one inch closer to seeing what it's all about. :?

X9200 wrote:I'm having some problems too. I think the Confucian debate hardly applicable to this sort of discussion we typically take part in (not only here). My crippled working understanding of such discussion is to have it as per normal but to use no confrontational or critical remarks (unless you are morally perfect or close to it).

Sorry for confusing everybody. The problem is that there is no such thing as a 'Confucian debate' so trying to understand what I'm saying in terms of a debating style or method leads nowhere. I was just suggesting that the refusal to engage specific points is due to a different worldview or lens.

X9200's understanding is closest to what I would consider a constructive rather than critical discussion. The tone would not be "Here's what you're doing wrong" but rather "This is my experience and this is what I tried to do and it worked well or it didn't work because..."

Anyway, this is just the beginning of an incomplete thought I'm trying to formulate but it's still not entirely clear to me either. I'm just wondering why this pattern recurs so consistently and whether there is a way to prevent new posters from frequently being blown off the forum.

Let's all go back to fighting now :)

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Postby Manthink » Thu, 02 Jun 2011 11:57 am

Strong Eagle wrote:That's a laugh mate. The whole thing. Well educated Chinese Singaporeans dealing with Chinese nationals. What the hell do you think they spoke? Yiddish?

You cannot escape the fact that China is corrupt from top to bottom.


You failed to humour me :wink:

There are many presumptions that you had made.
Are you assuming a group of educated overseas Chinese going to have an easier time doing business in China?

We have local investors getting screwed in neighboring countries, no thanks to corruption. Does that make their government a dictatorship or a lesser democracy?

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Postby nakatago » Thu, 02 Jun 2011 12:22 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote: I'm just wondering why this pattern recurs so consistently and whether there is a way to prevent new posters from frequently being blown off the forum.


If you're new and you're already antagonistic, you're sorta asking for it.

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Postby ksl » Thu, 02 Jun 2011 2:27 pm

Manthink wrote:
Strong Eagle wrote:That's a laugh mate. The whole thing. Well educated Chinese Singaporeans dealing with Chinese nationals. What the hell do you think they spoke? Yiddish?

You cannot escape the fact that China is corrupt from top to bottom.


You failed to humour me :wink:

There are many presumptions that you had made.
Are you assuming a group of educated overseas Chinese going to have an easier time doing business in China?

We have local investors getting screwed in neighboring countries, no thanks to corruption. Does that make their government a dictatorship or a lesser democracy?


We have local investors getting screwed in neighboring countries, no thanks to corruption. Does that make their government a dictatorship or a lesser democracy?
You are of course correct, though SE was pointing out the risk differences as he is in business project management, I would believe he has hands on experience, in many Asian countries.

I also agree on the guanxi acclaim, in fact so much that lesser experienced men with funds, have to rely on this network, as they are not always capable of doing the job themselves degrees are a good thing, providing they come with commonsense, otherwise you have an academic that no one respects and even the smart uneducated can see this.

Attitude is, money buy's everything in many Asian societies, when in fact it doesn't, the complexities between east and west is good and relevant and maybe utilised to complement both societies.

Asian's in general are very well mannered and non confrontational in most circumstances, however politics is an emotional area, which we all to often see explode.

The important thing is not to be judgemental on either side east or west, has disturbance, is wasted energy, ideally one joins with the flow and avoids all the political drama, has one cannot go about changing the world.

On the path you travel there are many distractions, look at the risks of those distractions has human behaviour can be measured over time forget about East & West has politically right, as experience of both maybe complimentary.

My own opinion is the same for any country or race, listen, learn and adapt, otherwise the conflict within will eat you away with emotional frustration.

Progress of wisdom will never be gained, by environmental and social seclusion, even mixed marriages have their up's and downs until the happy medium is discovered.

I guess tolerance and better understanding of mental approaches to solving problems, can be shared if one is able to expand one's vision, I often get told that Singaporean is like that stubborn and will never change, but the world doesn't stand still I reply. Changes are taking place even though you do not see them, you have to make change to survive.

The economic collapse is serious but not that bad that China is in line for the super power role...ASEAN still has many problems to iron out, though growth is there for all to see and the environment is also more risky. The more risk the higher returns, for those that are cautious and lucky!

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Thu, 02 Jun 2011 11:16 pm

I used to think KSL was drunk. Now I think he's wise. Maybe both! :D

x9200 wrote:
Wind In My Hair wrote:Usually by criticising oneself (or an extension of) but not another.

Nobody at all or only inside the discussion group?

Sorry, missed your question earlier. I suppose the truly virtuous would criticise nobody at all. The less saintly would at least refrain from criticising others in the group (or their extensions).

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Postby nakatago » Thu, 02 Jun 2011 11:59 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:I used to think KSL was drunk. Now I think he's wise. Maybe both! :D

x9200 wrote:
Wind In My Hair wrote:Usually by criticising oneself (or an extension of) but not another.

Nobody at all or only inside the discussion group?

Sorry, missed your question earlier. I suppose the truly virtuous would criticise nobody at all. The less saintly would at least refrain from criticising others in the group (or their extensions).


a Catholic joke:

Jesus saw the crowd stoning the woman, and stepped forth, shouting, "Let he without sin cast the first stone!" Silence -- then a stone came flying from the crowd, and Jesus turned around saying "C'mon, Mom, I'm trying to make a point here..."

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Postby x9200 » Fri, 03 Jun 2011 8:14 am

Wind In My Hair wrote:Anyway, this is just the beginning of an incomplete thought I'm trying to formulate but it's still not entirely clear to me either. I'm just wondering why this pattern recurs so consistently and whether there is a way to prevent new posters from frequently being blown off the forum.

By this pattern you mean kind of apparent miscommunication based on cultural preconditioning? I think it does not happen that frequently or at least not to the extent exceeding single discussion points.
Many newbies unfortunately deserve this kind of treatment. Public forums are not the places to gently educate them in what their parents or environment failed to do earlier.

Wind In My Hair wrote:I suppose the truly virtuous would criticise nobody at all. The less saintly would at least refrain from criticising others in the group (or their extensions).

Could be interesting to see it. I am not that sure how interesting would be to participate :)

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Fri, 03 Jun 2011 6:29 pm

x9200 wrote:Could be interesting to see it. I am not that sure how interesting would be to participate :)

Perhaps less interesting, but more meaningful. Less confrontational criticism, less defensiveness, hence more willingness to listen, increased understanding, and ultimately world peace. We can dream, can't we? :)

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Postby Strong Eagle » Fri, 03 Jun 2011 7:39 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:
x9200 wrote:Could be interesting to see it. I am not that sure how interesting would be to participate :)

Perhaps less interesting, but more meaningful. Less confrontational criticism, less defensiveness, hence more willingness to listen, increased understanding, and ultimately world peace. We can dream, can't we? :)


And... we could throw in a couple of verses of 'Kumbaya'.

The man who has not made enemies has never stood up for positions he believes.


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