Singapore Expats Forum

Day Trading

Discuss your views about Singapore business & economy, current policies & issues, starting a business in Singapore.
taxico
Director
Director
Posts: 3148
Joined: Sat, 10 May 2008
Location: Existential dilemma!

Postby taxico » Sun, 06 Jan 2013 2:58 am

JR8 wrote:Easier to lie, and tell people you have a job? If that's what you mean I get your point...

What is L4P? I don't throw it around (money)... I've seen too many traders make millions in their 20s... Then... they lose it all, and are left with nothing.


nobody believes anyone can hate being a physician or be capable of finishing grad school but not have a job.

i usually end up saying i'm in healthcare pushing medicine (kinda true). but now that i'm out of it again (this is my second time quitting), i've gotta start lying about my job once more. and of course i always run out of name cards.

i do quite a good show of taking out my wallet and opening it to an obviously empty section before launching my "i ran out!" monologue.

life should be a little more than the same ole same ole same ole same ole. you know what i mean.

at some point in my life last year, i realized if i didn't take at least some of the same risks as i did when i got lucky, there is little joy in living. i can't play it safe for the next however many years i have left on this planet.

although i no longer "live beyond my means" now that i'm married but when i did... it sure felt good. worth a punt to try to make a box or two of cash again. if i lose a huge chunk in the process, or even all of it... it's no worse than when i started.

IMO money shouldn't make me take less risks. it should help me take a much higher but calculated risk that should reap a higher than normal reward.

now, allow me to introduce you to l4p and let the mayhem begin: http://www.luxury4play.com (good luck!)

User avatar
JR8
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16514
Joined: Wed, 24 Mar 2010
Location: K. Puki Manis

Postby JR8 » Sun, 06 Jan 2013 5:48 am

Thanks for the link. I can't for the life of me see what the site is for/does. It is not explained in FAQ, and there is no 'About' page. I spent certainly 10 minutes trying to figure it out... but left none the wiser.

p.s. Nothing useful comes up via Wiki OR Google either... :???:

taxico
Director
Director
Posts: 3148
Joined: Sat, 10 May 2008
Location: Existential dilemma!

Postby taxico » Sun, 06 Jan 2013 6:41 pm

years back after i quit going to ferrarichat, i joined L4P coz it was basically a car and bike forum for those less willing to want to try to fit in with the established crowd.

and i still badly needed some help on my F360's seemingly unresolvable clutch problem.

it was nice to get real help instead of having to prove why i'm not such a dunce in the first place for wrecking my car. more than a few of them didn't have real jobs like us and it was interesting to meet them up for events or after parties.

it was a fun bona fide forum that wasn't difficult to fit in whether you have money or not, is what i mean.

like so many popular internet forums, over time it became some crazy amalgamation of everything.

whatever it's become now, i'm sure you can still have fun, make some good contacts and toss around/get business ideas within.

sorry i can't make it any less confusing! here's a picture of one of my ricers to help you feel better:

Image
holla!

InTheBlue
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue, 23 Nov 2010
Location: Siglap village
Contact:

Postby InTheBlue » Sat, 26 Oct 2013 2:58 pm

Did anyone actually notice that Singsi stopped posting and has not posted in the Forum since?

Rather than give advice about whether Singsi should or should not be trading, this forum should have answered the question to the best of their ability.

If someone asks about where to trade they don't then need to be hounded about whether they can or not.

Singsi has not been back since.

User avatar
JR8
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16514
Joined: Wed, 24 Mar 2010
Location: K. Puki Manis

Postby JR8 » Sat, 26 Oct 2013 4:51 pm

InTheBlue wrote:Did anyone actually notice that Singsi stopped posting and has not posted in the Forum since?
Rather than give advice about whether Singsi should or should not be trading, this forum should have answered the question to the best of their ability.
If someone asks about where to trade they don't then need to be hounded about whether they can or not.
Singsi has not been back since.


And why have you picked a topic that's been dormant for 10 months, only to rally to the defence of a '5-post wonder'* poster from 2.5 years ago? Heart set on day-trading too?

The OP asked in his opening post for
singsi wrote:any practical help and advice would be most welcome.
, and that was what he got. As he apparently had no industry knowledge of trading, or even DIY LTBH (Long Term Buy and Hold, like otherwise fully employed elsewhere people who buy quality stocks now and again to accumulate a pportfolio for the long-term income and growth, like a self-invested low-fee pension) the very best advice was frank, honest and rightfully, 'Don't do it'. What advice would give a youth seeking advice and asking the best place to go and play Chicken across a busy motorway?

I'd love to see statistics on how many day traders make money, or even how many are completely wiped out in 6 months. Few and many respectively I'm sure. If you're a newbie to the markets I think it's rather like roulette, just with stocks (especially if you can only afford to do small orders) the fees might be... say 10% of the trade value. Great ... day #1 you're down 10% on your gamble. Then you really think you're going to beat the collective wisdom of Wall Street, and scoop 10%+ on the upside, every time?

p.s. Please don't take offence at my ardent tone. I had a friend who quit medical school in New York to become a day-trader. Clearly he was a very intelligent guy (although apparently not a smart one), but he lost all his money, and I don't know if he was ever able to resume his studies. He threw away a gold-plated future tomorrow, on the lie of getting an easy one today.

Now if you're serious about making a career of this then fine, I hope you'll understand the above is written with your best interests in mind. If you are serious about it, you'll now have a set of different follow up questions. Ironically perhaps that would be an example of a good traders thinking; willingness to accept a mistake, and cutting a loss. If so, I and I'm sure others look forward to trying to guide you as best we can.

* They rapidly post 5 messages, often in one day, maybe even within 10 minutes, solely in order to activate their PM function, and write private messages to people, usually things that would not be allowed to be published on the public forum (soliciting etc), and are never seen on the forum again.

InTheBlue
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue, 23 Nov 2010
Location: Siglap village
Contact:

Postby InTheBlue » Sun, 27 Oct 2013 7:07 am

JR8 - Indeed I was doing research on day trading as I have a partner that does it and quite successfully. I got to the page through a Google search where it was high on the listings for what I searched for.

It struck me that your response was not only irrelevant but borderline offensive and this on a page that ranks high on a Google search which reflects very poorly on Singapore Expats Forum where new expats search for advice a wide variety of subjects.

Everybody starts out trying to get their number of posts up to get away from the 'Newbie' monicker but I am absolutely sure that some are put of the site by the less than helpful responses they get.

Now I don't particularly want to get into an argument with you as a moderator as you have all day long to respond to this mail and others like it whereas I have other things to do BUT your post to Singsi was not a fair and measured response to what they asked and it encouraged others to join in on the same tack.

As a Moderator I believe you should be above this type of response and should not encourage others to behave in this pattern especially as you have a responsibility to make the site as popular as possible.

Singsi did not advertise or solicit for the business but asked a question which should have been answered rather than scoffed at.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend but that should not tarnish your ability to give impartial advice.

User avatar
JR8
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16514
Joined: Wed, 24 Mar 2010
Location: K. Puki Manis

Postby JR8 » Sun, 27 Oct 2013 8:00 am

I am not and have never been a Moderator.

I, nor others here, are under any obligation to give advice. We are not somehow impassive on-demand encyclopaedias of wisdom, ready to regurgitate chapter and verse, free of charge, any time some newbie appears and kicks us.

However, I'm often happy to try and offer advice if I think the person is receptive, and might 'net-net benefit' from what I'm saying. The cherry on the cake is when they later revert and report back 'how it worked out'.

Good day to you.

CitizenOfTheWorld
Member
Member
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon, 27 May 2013
Location: USA

Postby CitizenOfTheWorld » Tue, 29 Oct 2013 12:25 pm

Just a hypothetical question: if you happen to be among the 3-5% of traders who can make money consistently (and I've learned the hard way that I am not) would your winnings be considered income according to IRAS and taxed accordingly, or would it be considered capital gains?

I'm only curious, as I will have neither time, nor funds, nor intestinal fortitude to day trade.
"Democracy is also a form of religion. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses."
H.L. Mencken

User avatar
JR8
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16514
Joined: Wed, 24 Mar 2010
Location: K. Puki Manis

Postby JR8 » Tue, 29 Oct 2013 1:33 pm

CitizenOfTheWorld wrote:Just a hypothetical question: if you happen to be among the 3-5% of traders who can make money consistently (and I've learned the hard way that I am not) would your winnings be considered income according to IRAS and taxed accordingly, or would it be considered capital gains?

I'm only curious, as I will have neither time, nor funds, nor intestinal fortitude to day trade.


Typically, as I expect you know, the profit/loss on the position value would be treated as a capital 'tax event'. Dividends are treated as income.

But you are correct, there is some nuance where capital that is generated so quickly and actively, as opposed to long-term and passively, is considered and treated as income.

I cannot recall now whether this is something I've seen discussed re: UK or US tax law though as it was many years ago. Google brings up buckets of hits...

Grumpy77
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu, 30 Jul 2009

Postby Grumpy77 » Tue, 29 Oct 2013 9:29 pm

It's been asked several times where I got the 200k minimum figure for full-time trading from. I won't get into that too specifically since it is 'my opinion' and of course every young buck with a minimum acct will dispute my conservative risk management.

But I will discuss being undercaptialised and the totally unrealistic assumptions that these guys operate under. One fellow feels you can be a full-time trader with only a thousand or two

Let's assume Joe Wannabe opens up his daytrading account with $10,000 which is possibly average for these start-ups. I know I've seen plenty of minimum balance traders - before they disappear.

They quite their job and embark on their new career. I'll also assume that they can get by on 3,000 per month for living expenses. That means the business plan is to generate 30% returns per month (annualises out to 2230%) without ever having a losing month.

If you can do that, move home, live off your parents and roll that account over. Without pulling out your paltry 3k/mo for tiger and noodles, you will compound it to 5.5Million by the end of year two. Heck, why stop there, go another two years and you'll have 3 Billion in your account.

Sadly my business assumptions are not predicated on being the best trader in the history of the world (I'm slightly more modest / realistic). I target 4% gains per month in the futures market to generate 60% per year. I don't like to live on 3k/mo - nor can I live at home...

So for you newbies, with a 200k recommended starting line, you can lose half and still have a happy hundred left - hopefully by then you'll have some concept of risk management and will be able to make a decent living, but just barely and with no margin for error.

Cheers :shock:

User avatar
JR8
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16514
Joined: Wed, 24 Mar 2010
Location: K. Puki Manis

Postby JR8 » Tue, 29 Oct 2013 9:43 pm

Well, you covered 48/50 bases there man..,.. ::

CitizenOfTheWorld
Member
Member
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon, 27 May 2013
Location: USA

Postby CitizenOfTheWorld » Tue, 29 Oct 2013 10:18 pm

JR8 wrote:
CitizenOfTheWorld wrote:Just a hypothetical question: if you happen to be among the 3-5% of traders who can make money consistently (and I've learned the hard way that I am not) would your winnings be considered income according to IRAS and taxed accordingly, or would it be considered capital gains?

I'm only curious, as I will have neither time, nor funds, nor intestinal fortitude to day trade.


Typically, as I expect you know, the profit/loss on the position value would be treated as a capital 'tax event'. Dividends are treated as income.

But you are correct, there is some nuance where capital that is generated so quickly and actively, as opposed to long-term and passively, is considered and treated as income.

I cannot recall now whether this is something I've seen discussed re: UK or US tax law though as it was many years ago. Google brings up buckets of hits...



Thanks for the info, JR8. So for people who have a retirement account that they sell after several years, is that income or capital gains and would it be taxed?

P.S. Traders: avoid options like the plague, except as part of a buy/write strategy.
"Democracy is also a form of religion. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses."

H.L. Mencken

User avatar
JR8
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16514
Joined: Wed, 24 Mar 2010
Location: K. Puki Manis

Postby JR8 » Wed, 30 Oct 2013 9:36 am

CitizenOfTheWorld wrote:Thanks for the info, JR8. So for people who have a retirement account that they sell after several years, is that income or capital gains and would it be taxed?

P.S. Traders: avoid options like the plague, except as part of a buy/write strategy.


Retirement account, or self-invested retirement portfolio? It matters as the former could include UK SIPPs, ISAs, or say a US parallel (Roth IRAs??).

If you open a regular trading account, and buy 20 odd diversified blue-chip stocks, and hold for the long term income and growth, then you are the master of your own low-fee affairs (it requires research and some ongoing admin though - that said there are web-forums almost like 'investment clubs' where the strategies are discussed, assessed, analysed etc., so there is plenty of info being shared and discussed. I've been in one for 15 odd years now*1, and the characters remain pretty much the same, and the info/advice/opinion is... great, supportive, 'we're all in this pioneering little self-help boat together' :)).

I worked for many years in blue-chip private client banking/trading - I would not dream of putting my 'retirement portfolio' in the hands of any such bank. Enough said* :)

So for me, if I was say UK tax resident, there is something like a £10k annual CGT exemption. The long term strategy would be to sell off lines of stock each year, maximising use of that exemption. That is a common strategy. For me, being geographically mobile, I expect I'll come up with some plan with no tax implication (portfolio held offshore?)... we'll see.

Yep writing covered calls, I've looked into that, as a way for generating another income stream on a passive portfolio. But two things struck me, #1 the need/time to learn the strategy well enough such that it's worthwhile. It's pretty intense 'Black-Scholes bell-curves' etc #2 the apparent contradiction that you get called (forced to hand over) stocks that are performing much better than you anticipated. i.e. you earn a small additional income, but with the risk of having to hand over your star performers... not for me, or IMHO for people who 'don't know, what they don't know' :) Keep it simple - stick with what you understand > fight your wars in your own back garden, the territory known best of all, by you.



* Or perhaps not :). There is an inherent conflict. The brokers are paid almost wholly upon the business and fees they generate, what are called 'Production credits'. They need to 'produce', trade, force activity, flip you from one product to 'this week's star recommendation'. So you pay your personal broker, to flip you from fund to fund, where you pay fund management fees, and as long as you hold that/those funds the broker is earning an annual 'trailing commission'. They are never ever, never, ever! going to suggest you invest directly in plain stocks, and 'hold them for ever' aka Long Term Buy and Hold/LTBH. It's a dirty game, and you can see why I won't participate. [Do note further; that was a blue-chip historic Wall Street bank, and not some cowboy-shop]


*1 'The Motley Fool' - US and UK versions. Free. The self-help investment mother-source. [No connection, barring being a long time subscriber].

Seek To Compromise
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu, 05 Jun 2014
Location: Mt. Zion
Contact:

Postby Seek To Compromise » Thu, 05 Jun 2014 7:59 pm

If OP is still around, best is gained real experiences over the past 3 years :)

Day Trading is one of the most if not best sought after career due to lucrative remuneration packages being offered. What OP can do is to learn Technical Analysis (aka T.A) yet not neglecting Fundamental Analysis (aka F.A).

T.A constitutes of indicators which provides insightful predictions and OP may develop his/her ideal method to determine the ongoing trends. At the end of the day, the most helpful sources are OP's eyes, mind, practices and judgements.

Quitted Active Trading & Enjoy Passive Trading,
S.T.C
When you help one another, the help returns to you.
The greatest gift on earth is to bring all to our Heavenly parents and be granted everlasting Life, Happiness and Love.

User avatar
sundaymorningstaple
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 34262
Joined: Thu, 11 Nov 2004
Location: Still Fishing!
Contact:

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 05 Jun 2014 9:15 pm

tic...toc...tic...toc...


  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “Business in Singapore”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest