Singapore Expats Forum

Opposition pre-election vid re: foreigners

Discuss about the latest news & interesting topics, real life experience or other out of topic discussions with locals & expatriates in Singapore.

User avatar
x9200
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 9320
Joined: Mon, 07 Sep 2009
Location: Singapore

Postby x9200 » Sat, 07 May 2011 8:47 am

JR8 wrote:
x9200 wrote:But I don't see that they can. Within one discussion we have the suggestion that the opposition might possibly win one GRC, and then also that they might take government. I find it perplexing that so many people are running so scared. Are there no opinion polls in the constituencies, or is it useful scare-mongering by the PAP?

I wrote this before and did not see anybody (or missed it) of the "freedom fighters" addressing any of these points: Regardless the magnitude (the whole government overthrown or just a few GRCs) I do not see any benefits or quality of the potential change and I do not see any moral stand for the opposition manipulating this particular way the masses to get to the power. This does not sound to me like a healthy change for this well running machine and that's why it is a bit scary.

The psychological dependency? Yes I would agree with that, I think they have one, but after 56 years that should be no surprise.
It is not surprising, it is just to be taken into consideration

As I said earlier on, if you create a pressure cooker, there is a risk it will go with a bang. The PAP - in their omniscient wisdom - should have seen this, so what should we make of the fact that they did not?

I think they did and there is not yet enough pressure in this specific cooker. In fact the only pressure I see may be created by the opposition based on the known sentiments. I can be wrong as I don't have enough insight but then I am very sure there is normally a tremendous difference between people like W.I.M.H bright, well educated and thinking independently (pitty she clearly doesn't like me any longer :( ) and an average Singaporean Joe.

Should they not have seen that the popular will demands an opening of the democratic process... no, even on this campaign they have redrawn the electoral boundaries again (gerrymandering), and even closed down Speaker's Corner. I mean how out of touch could you continue to be?

I say it is all carefully calculated. Majority cares only about money or their well being. This is a social manipulation and engineering and the disturbance you feel here is because you are different and less tolerant to the abuse of the power. IMHO of course.

Well then they will have ‘5 years to regret it’ and learn won’t they? :) Just as the residents of Potong Pasir are managing to live with a closed MRT and the hideous threats made over them. It doesn’t mean the end of the world as we know it. As their voices and choices show.

Depending on the degree of the change it can mean exactly this (destabilization) but likely the scenario will be more over the line of the opposition pushing responsibilities to ruling majority (as in any normal democracy :) esp. that PAP is not extremely trusted so no regrets after firs and maybe even after a decade and then it can be already a mess.

If people are not unhappy why fear their verdict on election day? I think it is time for SGns to grow up politically. I think the PAP are doing a great job but I also find their arrogance and various schemes to remain perpetually in power really rather tiring.

Ppl can be easily manipulated.

It is far from being perfect but again, it works.

Ok. But let’s be honest here. The max we’ll see is a GRC going to the opposition. What is so scary about that?

Probably nothing if this would be really the case.

But I think that discounts the people that (rightly or wrongly) feel they have nothing to lose. And the PAP are facing an opposition that feel they have nothing to lose.

In other words few people would preferably set the whole country on fire (just a figure of speech) to ease their feelings. Is that morally right?

On top of this in every existing democracy there is some level of abuse. How to judge if this particular one is out of base for the given social and cultural setting?


Sure, all of them, except in Singapore of course where there is no abuse hehe.

Oh, c'mon, be serious :)

The people will speak. Nobody who believes in democracy should be afraid.

Just an empty slogan that's what the above is.
I tell you something and this is more emotional than logical argument: I am probably the only person in this thread who have first hand experience with living in the country that changed from a non-democratic to a democratic one. Peacefully, over a period of time, with the government consisting initially of the members of the former ruling party and the members of the opposition. The transformation was very successful and people like myself were the winners. But good few millions, almost two generations that could not find themselves in the new reality paid and are still paying the price. That's what makes me here extra cautious especially that many of these people were really fighting for freedom and from the depth of their harts not for the depth of their pockets.

I can recognize the symptoms, this something hanging in the air and to some extent I feel happy for the Singaporeans who are carried on by this atmosphere but at the same time I see all your blind push towards the freedom as very naive and without any deeper reflection on possible consequences.

[/quote]

User avatar
ecureilx
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 9812
Joined: Fri, 20 Aug 2010

Postby ecureilx » Sat, 07 May 2011 11:34 am

JR8 wrote:My friend by 35 odd, will have been a Major in the British Army, a battlefield hardened senior surgeon, the world will be his oyster. Where will his SG peers be, still having their maids carry their packs? :P


Well, being Battle-field hardened will have no bearing, in my opinion, in practicing as a doctor .. post graduation ..

Don't tell me those with battlefield experience are paid 10 times or more when they practice their profession ?? I don't get your explanation .. anyway, over and out ..

User avatar
Wind In My Hair
Manager
Manager
Posts: 2306
Joined: Tue, 19 Jul 2005

Postby Wind In My Hair » Sat, 07 May 2011 12:12 pm

X9200,

First of all, I love you as much as ever :kiss: I stayed away not because of you, but to keep the peace with other posters. And I haven't replied to your posts on this thread simply because there are so many points I don't know where to start. But for you, here goes...

The PAP has managed the economy well. I also personally like Lee Hsien Loong, and give him credit for not playing the politics of fear. This election is notable for the fact that people dare speak freely and openly support the opposition. If I lived in his constituency, he has my vote any time.

My constituency, however, sees Chiam See Tong standing as an opposition candidate. He has almost single-handedly represented democracy in Singapore for 27 years against all odds. During all that time he was a rare gentleman in politics and never said a nasty word against anybody. He is is sincere, humble, and inspires respect from everyone including LKY. He maintained and upgraded Potong Pasir with no funds from the government. For 27 years he met his constituents in a makeshift cubicle in a void deck because the government won't give opposition MPs a proper office. He cares enough about his constituents to attend wakes in his ward. He is a legend in Singapore because of who he is and what he represents. He may be old and stooped now, but because of him his constituents can stand tall and proud, that we (yes I grew up in Potong Pasir) did not succumb to materialism, threats and fear, but lived and voted as free persons with dignity.

Why would I not vote for this man? Singapore is better off for having him in Parliament.

I would also like to see one-third of parliament going to the opposition so that the PAP cannot make changes to the constitution for partisan rather than national interests. Changing the constitution to count votes at precinct rather than constituency level so they can blatantly gerrymander every election? Putting in place an elected presidency to prevent opposition taking over government then proceeding to treat the president as a puppet and refuse to co-operate when Ong Teng Cheong asks for a list of the reserves he is supposed to protect, then denying him a state funeral because he dared challenge the PAP? Applying the constitution selectively by refusing to let the opposition stand when they submit forms wrongly (James Gomez) or 35 seconds late (Tanjong Pagar team), while turning a blind eye when a PAP candidate (Tin Pei Ling) posts on Facebook on Cooling Off Day when candidates aren't allowed to campaign, then blaming her administrator even though on her election form she stated that she is the sole administrator? With the constitution being changed and applied with such loose license, what is there to protect citizens should a rogue leader or government succeed this one? Does it make Singapore a better or safer place to let this continue?

These two reasons, my dear X9200 whom I like very much, are why I vote opposition for this election.

User avatar
lavendar
Member
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu, 07 Apr 2011
Location: Tiong Bahru

Postby lavendar » Sat, 07 May 2011 12:40 pm

I dont understand why the government dont give subsidy for chemotherapy for cancer patients. Mr Chiam See Tong has brought it up since 2005 and nothing was done.

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2011/04/why ... hospitals/

User avatar
x9200
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 9320
Joined: Mon, 07 Sep 2009
Location: Singapore

Postby x9200 » Sat, 07 May 2011 1:01 pm

Thanks W.I.M.H. This is what I needed :) The two parts: (1) isn't Chiam See Tong somehow unique then? Why so many, including myself, have this feeling that majority of the opposition made the fear their based strategy? (2) I have never said this is right. I simply tend to think that this may be the price worth paying for the wealth and political stability.

User avatar
JR8
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16514
Joined: Wed, 24 Mar 2010
Location: K. Puki Manis

Postby JR8 » Sat, 07 May 2011 4:23 pm

Hi X9,

I’ve got a bit of a busy day today so cannot reply to your post point by point. :(

As I see it your position seems to be that the government works well, and so nobody should be allowed to change that. In fact you talk of ‘freedom fighters’ and ‘opposition manipulation’. That leaves me wondering whether you believe in democracy. Surely if the PAP are the best government one could wish for, then they should have confidence in allowing some opposition, safe in the knowledge that because they are acknowledged as so good they (the PAP) will always be voted in. Sometimes I wonder why the PAP are terrified of allowing any opposition, any dissenting voices. Aren’t SG something like 150/190 on the freedom of speech league table... you know it is a paranoia, control-freakery, not something open developed economies are expected to have!

p.s. I think SG society would be stronger if people had a sense that their vote mattered. As it is I think people just assume the PAP are in power and all that is left for the people to do is look after themselves and grab what ever they can. Rather ironic since the Old Man professes to desire a ‘gracious society’.

User avatar
sundaymorningstaple
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 35178
Joined: Thu, 11 Nov 2004
Location: Still Fishing!
Contact:

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 07 May 2011 4:52 pm

My fears, if you can call them that, as I'm not really a prisoner here, are more of a situation that could bog down parliament when the hallmark of this country, during it's rather short history as a sovereign nation, as always been able to "turn on a dime" when the occasion (external stimuli) necessitated it to ensure not only it's survival but it's continued growth in spite of what is happening to her neighbours and other countries in general. this ability to react quickly is something normally found in companies (sic!) and usually those companies that do it quickly tend to survive and prosper as well.

Add a third or more opposition members and parliament gets bogged down in discussions and obstructions much the same way as other countries like my own tend to do. However, while other countries have alternatives they can pursue do to having a sufficient supply of water, arable croplands, minerals/mining to support their self sufficiency if necessary, this country has none of them so needs to remain nimble to remain viable. I'd love to see an opposition here as well, but how do you guarantee that you don't get so much opposition that it hamstrings the governments ability to function at peak efficiency?

JR8, re: you comment the other day, which I've tried not to touch on... ;-)

While I'm an American, I am also able to see her faults and having spend almost 3 decades as an adult here (and two decades as an adult over there) I'm the first to admit that traditional democracy, as we (yanks) know it, is not for the normal Asian Country. I see what is happening in Japan in the Deit and also in S. Korea. While they have the resources to continue, little Red Dot here doesn't. And 3 months stockpile of rice just isn't gonna do it. So I'm waiting, with bated breath, just like the the MNC's principals are doing, to see whether this country is gonna remain viable or not. If, like all the Opposition parties want, immigration is curtailed sharply, and those MNC cannot get sufficient quantities of manpower (both on the shop floor AND PMET's) then they will start looking for countries that can provide them. Funny enough, you will start seeing lots of Expatriate Singaporeans then as they follow the MNC's to keep THEIR jobs as well. Just might exacerbate the brain drain here even further........

Personally, I hope I'm wrong!

User avatar
x9200
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 9320
Joined: Mon, 07 Sep 2009
Location: Singapore

Postby x9200 » Sat, 07 May 2011 4:56 pm

No JR8, you got me pretty wrong. In one sentence: I think turning Singapore to fully thriving democracy and not harming its citizen is far more difficult than winning the election.
Frankly, I am not sure if this is possible at all.

User avatar
Wind In My Hair
Manager
Manager
Posts: 2306
Joined: Tue, 19 Jul 2005

Postby Wind In My Hair » Sat, 07 May 2011 5:22 pm

x9200 wrote:Thanks W.I.M.H. This is what I needed :) The two parts: (1) isn't Chiam See Tong somehow unique then? Why so many, including myself, have this feeling that majority of the opposition made the fear their based strategy? (2) I have never said this is right. I simply tend to think that this may be the price worth paying for the wealth and political stability.

1) On fear: The opposition knows people are afraid of two things - that their vote is not secret, and that they will be punished for voting opposition. The opposition are simply telling people to vote with their hearts and conscience, and not from fear. Many who vote opposition this year are voting against fear. It's their way of saying to the PAP, "I'm not afraid of you anymore." Personally, I have not felt as proud of my country as I have in the past two weeks.

2a) On wealth: Each individual has to decide the price he is willing to pay. For me, I own residential and investment properties here and derive most of my income from MNCs. I know how much I stand to lose financially if our economy falters. At the same time, I ask myself what my life would mean if I'm wealthy but my nephews and niece grow up fearing to speak their minds, scared to be put away by the ISA if they make a wrong step politically. Or would I rather see my assets diminish, but watch those kids grow up freer and braver. Which scenario pains me more? What price do I put on the human spirit?

2b) On stability: The past is not the future. Today's PAP is not the old guard PAP which had people of great calibre. I used to believe the PAP's claim that their selection process identifies the best talent in Singapore. Indeed opposition in the past have largely been clowns. This year however, there are at least 4 clowns in the PAP slate, with only one outstanding PAP candidate. The opposition side, while motley, has at least 6 people I want to see in parliament. Is it more stable to put all our eggs in one party regardless of who their candidates are, or to vote the best individuals and trust them to work together for the good of the country? Again this is a question each individual must answer for himself.

I find it ironic that many expats say Singapore has a good economy but no soul, yet when Singaporeans show sign of choosing soul over economy, the expats panic. Also ironic when you say Singaporeans cannot think outside the box, yet when we challenge the status quo and envisage a different kind of country, it is the expats who believe that there is only one way that works - the current way.

User avatar
Wind In My Hair
Manager
Manager
Posts: 2306
Joined: Tue, 19 Jul 2005

Postby Wind In My Hair » Sat, 07 May 2011 5:28 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:So I'm waiting, with bated breath, just like the the MNC's principals are doing, to see whether this country is gonna remain viable or not. If, like all the Opposition parties want, immigration is curtailed sharply, and those MNC cannot get sufficient quantities of manpower (both on the shop floor AND PMET's) then they will start looking for countries that can provide them. Funny enough, you will start seeing lots of Expatriate Singaporeans then as they follow the MNC's to keep THEIR jobs as well. Just might exacerbate the brain drain here even further........

SMS, I too am against the anti-foreigner rhetoric and agree that Singapore is shooting itself in the foot to shut out foreigners that we need. I just hope that the opposition are using it merely as a campaigning tactic.

User avatar
JR8
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16514
Joined: Wed, 24 Mar 2010
Location: K. Puki Manis

Postby JR8 » Sat, 07 May 2011 5:35 pm

x9200 wrote:No JR8, you got me pretty wrong. In one sentence: I think turning Singapore to fully thriving democracy and not harming its citizen is far more difficult than winning the election.
Frankly, I am not sure if this is possible at all.


Sorry X9 didn't mean to misrepresent your views. Just I haven't enough time to think through the comments that you made earlier in great detail. That said I don't think anyone is really looking for instant 'full democracy', for this election, the issue seems to be - stop stamping on any opposition action or voice, we've had enough of it, (and now we have a collective voice that you cannot strangle). Surely not too much to ask?

SMS yes I was wondering how you managed to resist me poking you with my pointy stick earlier this week. Ah, such willpower! :lol:

I understand your point about the virtues of a dynamic/responsive government. But does that mean people should not be allowed satellite TV? Or they should not be able to congregate in groups of more than 3 (or what ever it is) without a police permit? How will letting people have satellite TV make the economy less dynamic? I suppose I don't understand the demand that the government have absolute total control.. WIMH made a good point earlier. The govt might function well now, but what if the next one does not? What could the people do about it?

p.s. You suggest political and economic loss to the country, but the people who are angry feel that they have nothing to lose from that and everything to gain by changing the current situation.

User avatar
BillyB
Manager
Manager
Posts: 1807
Joined: Fri, 23 Jul 2010
Location: My laptop

Postby BillyB » Sat, 07 May 2011 7:16 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:So I'm waiting, with bated breath, just like the the MNC's principals are doing, to see whether this country is gonna remain viable or not. If, like all the Opposition parties want, immigration is curtailed sharply, and those MNC cannot get sufficient quantities of manpower (both on the shop floor AND PMET's) then they will start looking for countries that can provide them. Funny enough, you will start seeing lots of Expatriate Singaporeans then as they follow the MNC's to keep THEIR jobs as well. Just might exacerbate the brain drain here even further........

SMS, I too am against the anti-foreigner rhetoric and agree that Singapore is shooting itself in the foot to shut out foreigners that we need. I just hope that the opposition are using it merely as a campaigning tactic.


I've been reading this thread closely and found your posts quite interesting and insightful. But with that last statement you've completely discredited the opposition by implying that they are basically full of sh*t and telling the people what they want to hear. Maybe they are learning from the West of how to get political votes??!!!

I was listening closely to a family at lunch today giving the foreigners a good working over and blaming them for driving up property prices amongst other things. I turned and asked them politely - 'Can you explain the mechanism as to why you think that has happened'. Surprise surprise they looked at me like I was talking Mongolian. Can the locals come up with their own school of thought rather than quoting the political parties policies almost verbatim and passing it off as their own prose?

User avatar
sundaymorningstaple
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 35178
Joined: Thu, 11 Nov 2004
Location: Still Fishing!
Contact:

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 07 May 2011 8:05 pm

Well the polls closed 5 minutes ago. Guess will know soon enough.......

User avatar
Wind In My Hair
Manager
Manager
Posts: 2306
Joined: Tue, 19 Jul 2005

Postby Wind In My Hair » Sat, 07 May 2011 8:14 pm

BillyB wrote:I've been reading this thread closely and found your posts quite interesting and insightful. But with that last statement you've completely discredited the opposition by implying that they are basically full of sh*t and telling the people what they want to hear. Maybe they are learning from the West of how to get political votes??!!!

The opposition at the moment is fragmented so I shouldn't have made such a general statement. The opposition that I support (Chiam See Tong, and the WP team in Aljunied) aren't really playing the anti-foreigner card. They have experienced leaders who have been in parliament a long time and understand the issues. The newer parties are playing that card more - they are politically immature and it remains to be seen if they will stick around for the next election. It is worrying that the sentiment on the ground against foreigners seems vehement though. What's wrong with you guys? :P

BillyB wrote:I was listening closely to a family at lunch today giving the foreigners a good working over and blaming them for driving up property prices amongst other things. I turned and asked them politely - 'Can you explain the mechanism as to why you think that has happened'. Surprise surprise they looked at me like I was talking Mongolian. Can the locals come up with their own school of thought rather than quoting the political parties policies almost verbatim and passing it off as their own prose?

There's a thread on this forum that debated this extensively and I provided as many facts as I could, so you can do a search. In short, a quarter to a third of the transactions in the public and private sectors are by foreigners and PRs, and it defies common sense that such a large proportion of the market has no impact at all on prices.

User avatar
BillyB
Manager
Manager
Posts: 1807
Joined: Fri, 23 Jul 2010
Location: My laptop

Postby BillyB » Sat, 07 May 2011 8:50 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:
BillyB wrote:I've been reading this thread closely and found your posts quite interesting and insightful. But with that last statement you've completely discredited the opposition by implying that they are basically full of sh*t and telling the people what they want to hear. Maybe they are learning from the West of how to get political votes??!!!

The opposition at the moment is fragmented so I shouldn't have made such a general statement. The opposition that I support (Chiam See Tong, and the WP team in Aljunied) aren't really playing the anti-foreigner card. They have experienced leaders who have been in parliament a long time and understand the issues. The newer parties are playing that card more - they are politically immature and it remains to be seen if they will stick around for the next election. It is worrying that the sentiment on the ground against foreigners seems vehement though. What's wrong with you guys? :P

BillyB wrote:I was listening closely to a family at lunch today giving the foreigners a good working over and blaming them for driving up property prices amongst other things. I turned and asked them politely - 'Can you explain the mechanism as to why you think that has happened'. Surprise surprise they looked at me like I was talking Mongolian. Can the locals come up with their own school of thought rather than quoting the political parties policies almost verbatim and passing it off as their own prose?

There's a thread on this forum that debated this extensively and I provided as many facts as I could, so you can do a search. In short, a quarter to a third of the transactions in the public and private sectors are by foreigners and PRs, and it defies common sense that such a large proportion of the market has no impact at all on prices.


Good response to the first point!!

Not so sure I agree with you on the second point but the world wouldn't be fun if we all agreed on everything.

:twisted:


  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “General Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests