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Opposition pre-election vid re: foreigners

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 06 May 2011 7:29 pm

x9200 wrote:Frankly, I do not think Singaporeans really want to have the full democracy and neither they are ready for it. The true intellectual elites - yes, but not the majority. A very nice paradox. It is also a common mistake made by the Westerners who believe the democracy is universally good anywhere and any given time.


Why even the suggestion? Singapore is not suddenly going to switch to 'full democracy' tomorrow.

In the longer term view I agree. After 56 years of one party state I do not think the majority are psychologically able to conceive other than one party politics. It would take time to accept that it is ok to have some opposition, and it does not necessarily mean the end of the world.

The perception that some have that democracy is the perfect model for everywhere is a good one. But then again, why are say Singaporean's not to be trusted with deciding their own destiny? Why do some peoples need a billionaire strong-man and his family ruling over them in a dictatorship and telling them what to do?

Sometimes I wonder if the 'democracy is not for everybody' line is simply something convenient for those in the billionaire-klepto club.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Fri, 06 May 2011 8:25 pm

JR8 makes a lot of sense to me in this thread. Horrors, I'm starting to like the man! :o :lol:

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 06 May 2011 8:38 pm

ecureilx wrote:PS: were you here during the last election ? And the one before ?? :D :D


Sorry Ecu I missed your PS.

No, I don't think we were. By nature we come and go and always seem to miss elections. This time however my wife is in-country, and is getting to vote for the very first time.

I occupy a position of finding politics quite fascinating, idealism perhaps, whilst finding politicians and the reality invariably despicable. The triumph of hope over reality? :)

My wife has always been very apathetic to SG politics (as are most SGns that I know). But I am fascinated by this election not only as an example of how in a fast developing world a controlled mainstream media cannot put a finger in every hole in the dyke, but by how very engaged she and her circle feel about it!

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 06 May 2011 8:47 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:JR8 makes a lot of sense to me in this thread. Horrors, I'm starting to like the man! :o :lol:


I've always liked you WIMH x

:wink:

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Postby x9200 » Fri, 06 May 2011 8:58 pm

JR8 wrote:Why even the suggestion? Singapore is not suddenly going to switch to 'full democracy' tomorrow.

If the opposition wins?

In the longer term view I agree. After 56 years of one party state I do not think the majority are psychologically able to conceive other than one party politics. It would take time to accept that it is ok to have some opposition, and it does not necessarily mean the end of the world.

IMO the problem is with the dependency on the state. Singaporeans take the social security created by the gov. for granted.


The perception that some have that democracy is the perfect model for everywhere is a good one. But then again, why are say Singaporean's not to be trusted with deciding their own destiny? Why do some peoples need a billionaire strong-man and his family ruling over them in a dictatorship and telling them what to do?

Trust has nothing to do with this. The true democracy would be probably very similar to this of the pre-China HK. I seriously doubt majority of Singaporeans would like it.

Sometimes I wonder if the 'democracy is not for everybody' line is simply something convenient for those in the billionaire-klepto club.

I can only talk for myself :) Pure pragmatics: the lack of democracy works for Singapore and I don't think ppl are here unhappy so why the need of the change if the outcome is at best uncertain? It is far from being perfect but again, it works. Secondly the democracy comes with the price. It is inevitably paid by the ordinary people who made the transformation possible but have no idea how this would affect their lives. If the country is being transformed from some commie underdeveloped state where people really suffer then this is IMO justified. Not the case for Singapore. On top of this in every existing democracy there is some level of abuse. How to judge if this particular one is out of base for the given social and cultural setting?

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Fri, 06 May 2011 9:53 pm

JR8 wrote:My wife has always been very apathetic to SG politics (as are most SGns that I know). But I am fascinated by this election not only as an example of how in a fast developing world a controlled mainstream media cannot put a finger in every hole in the dyke, but by how very engaged she and her circle feel about it!

Exactly. Several friends have mentioned to me that they have never before felt this involved and excited about politics. The fog of fear seems to have lifted and people are openly speaking their mind and supporting the opposition. Somehow, sometime, something changed in our country. In a word, Facebook.

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 06 May 2011 10:03 pm

x9200 wrote:If the opposition wins?

But I don't see that they can. Within one discussion we have the suggestion that the opposition might possibly win one GRC, and then also that they might take government. I find it perplexing that so many people are running so scared. Are there no opinion polls in the constituencies, or is it useful scare-mongering by the PAP?


IMO the problem is with the dependency on the state. Singaporeans take the social security created by the gov. for granted.


The psychological dependency? Yes I would agree with that, I think they have one, but after 56 years that should be no surprise.

As I said earlier on, if you create a pressure cooker, there is a risk it will go with a bang. The PAP - in their omniscient wisdom - should have seen this, so what should we make of the fact that they did not?

Should they not have seen that the popular will demands an opening of the democratic process... no, even on this campaign they have redrawn the electoral boundaries again (gerrymandering), and even closed down Speaker's Corner. I mean how out of touch could you continue to be?

Trust has nothing to do with this. The true democracy would be probably very similar to this of the pre-China HK. I seriously doubt majority of Singaporeans would like it.

Well then they will have ‘5 years to regret it’ and learn won’t they? :) Just as the residents of Potong Pasir are managing to live with a closed MRT and the hideous threats made over them. It doesn’t mean the end of the world as we know it. As their voices and choices show.

I can only talk for myself :) Pure pragmatics: the lack of democracy works for Singapore and I don't think ppl are here unhappy so why the need of the change if the outcome is at best uncertain?

If people are not unhappy why fear their verdict on election day? I think it is time for SGns to grow up politically. I think the PAP are doing a great job but I also find their arrogance and various schemes to remain perpetually in power really rather tiring.

It is far from being perfect but again, it works.

Ok. But let’s be honest here. The max we’ll see is a GRC going to the opposition. What is so scary about that?

Secondly the democracy comes with the price. It is inevitably paid by the ordinary people who made the transformation possible but have no idea how this would affect their lives. If the country is being transformed from some commie underdeveloped state where people really suffer then this is IMO justified. Not the case for Singapore.

But I think that discounts the people that (rightly or wrongly) feel they have nothing to lose. And the PAP are facing an opposition that feel they have nothing to lose.

On top of this in every existing democracy there is some level of abuse. How to judge if this particular one is out of base for the given social and cultural setting?


Sure, all of them, except in Singapore of course where there is no abuse hehe.

The people will speak. Nobody who believes in democracy should be afraid.
[/quote]

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 06 May 2011 10:20 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:
JR8 wrote:My wife has always been very apathetic to SG politics (as are most SGns that I know). But I am fascinated by this election not only as an example of how in a fast developing world a controlled mainstream media cannot put a finger in every hole in the dyke, but by how very engaged she and her circle feel about it!

Exactly. Several friends have mentioned to me that they have never before felt this involved and excited about politics. The fog of fear seems to have lifted and people are openly speaking their mind and supporting the opposition. Somehow, sometime, something changed in our country. In a word, Facebook.


Yes. And the PAP haven't cottoned on to it yet have they, and that it will only accelerate?

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Fri, 06 May 2011 10:41 pm

JR8 wrote:If people are not unhappy why fear their verdict on election day? I think it is time for SGns to grow up politically. I think the PAP are doing a great job but I also find their arrogance and various schemes to remain perpetually in power really rather tiring.

That's precisely the sentiment on the ground.

JR8 wrote:The people will speak. Nobody who believes in democracy should be afraid.

=D>

Well said, JR8. Why even bother being a democracy if no party can or should ever be voted out of power? Of course we could debate if a benevolent dictatorship is a better political model but that's another discussion altogether.

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Postby JR8 » Sat, 07 May 2011 2:46 am

Wind In My Hair wrote:Why even bother being a democracy if no party can or should ever be voted out of power? Of course we could debate if a benevolent dictatorship is a better political model but that's another discussion altogether.


Maybe this is where the reality of situation gets to be faced. Singapore is pretending to be one thing whilst being another?

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Postby JR8 » Sat, 07 May 2011 3:27 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC-BBI5r ... r_embedded

A piece from Aljazeera on the election.

Some really interesting and intelligent stuff. To imagine this being made even 10 years ago!

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Postby k1w1 » Sat, 07 May 2011 6:11 am

I was reading yesterday about the 5 seats that are "walkovers". One of the opposition candidates (in LKY's constituency) was not allowed to run because the application was submitted 35 SECONDS past the final submission time. Another opposition would-be was thrown out because on her application form, she had written "unemployed" as her employment status. This was technically untrue as she was seeing out her notice period... I'm not sure about the other seats, but I found these stories pretty shocking. Almost as shocking as the $16,000 each opposition MP had to pay as their "application fee" to run against the PAP.

I have been really excited to hear Singaporeans get fired up about this election. I think the people are ready for some new blood in parliament.

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Postby JR8 » Sat, 07 May 2011 6:42 am

k1w1 wrote:I was reading yesterday about the 5 seats that are "walkovers". One of the opposition candidates (in LKY's constituency) was not allowed to run because the application was submitted 35 SECONDS past the final submission time. Another opposition would-be was thrown out because on her application form, she had written "unemployed" as her employment status. This was technically untrue as she was seeing out her notice period... I'm not sure about the other seats, but I found these stories pretty shocking. Almost as shocking as the $16,000 each opposition MP had to pay as their "application fee" to run against the PAP.

I have been really excited to hear Singaporeans get fired up about this election. I think the people are ready for some new blood in parliament.


All par for the course eh? That's why people love the PAP so much, such lovely people.

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Postby ksl » Sat, 07 May 2011 6:53 am

JR8 wrote:
k1w1 wrote:I was reading yesterday about the 5 seats that are "walkovers". One of the opposition candidates (in LKY's constituency) was not allowed to run because the application was submitted 35 SECONDS past the final submission time. Another opposition would-be was thrown out because on her application form, she had written "unemployed" as her employment status. This was technically untrue as she was seeing out her notice period... I'm not sure about the other seats, but I found these stories pretty shocking. Almost as shocking as the $16,000 each opposition MP had to pay as their "application fee" to run against the PAP.

I have been really excited to hear Singaporeans get fired up about this election. I think the people are ready for some new blood in parliament.


All par for the course eh? That's why people love the PAP so much, such lovely people.
If you are into investing follow PAP, :lol: The video was interesting! I see the biggest threat to PAP is the security of the Island to be quite honest, if instability arises it will more likely be ethnic.

These distances between those living here need addressing, I'm pretty sure PAP will ease off and let others into politics, but only under very strict vetting. I could imagine shared power with other parties no problem, but no rocking the boat. Team players!
Last edited by ksl on Sat, 07 May 2011 7:40 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Postby earthfriendly » Sat, 07 May 2011 7:20 am

k1w1 wrote:I was reading yesterday about the 5 seats that are "walkovers". One of the opposition candidates (in LKY's constituency) was not allowed to run because the application was submitted 35 SECONDS past the final submission time. Another opposition would-be was thrown out because on her application form, she had written "unemployed" as her employment status. This was technically untrue as she was seeing out her notice period... I'm not sure about the other seats, but I found these stories pretty shocking. Almost as shocking as the $16,000 each opposition MP had to pay as their "application fee" to run against the PAP.



There is really no need for the PAP to resort to such. They had done an amazing job in building up SG. They should let their past good work speak for itself. Such tactics only serve to alienate the very people that they want to serve.

Insecurity can be a big sinister monster that swallow us from within.


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