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Opposition pre-election vid re: foreigners

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 09 May 2011 10:16 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:Here's a well-written and insightful article by Catherine Lim on the real significance of this election. I hope that X9200 will one day, like her, know that he was wrong about Singaporeans :)

Many posters here don't realise it yet, but we on the ground know that with this election, something fundamental has changed in Singapore.

http://catherinelim.sg/2011/05/09/how-g ... lly-wrong/


Nice article. I feel the vibe that she describes, I just hope that it rides out as we hope.

p.s. My SGn wife has never shown any interest in politics what so ever, (on the flip side I am an absolute consumer of politics). So I am agog to see her 3 days later still going on and speaking critically and incisively about the election. It is a bit of a 'Hey darling what happened to you moment!' :) It mirrors the spirit described in the linked article, people who suddenly believe 'yes you can'. It's great! :)

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Postby nakatago » Mon, 09 May 2011 11:32 pm

JR8 wrote:
Wind In My Hair wrote:Here's a well-written and insightful article by Catherine Lim on the real significance of this election. I hope that X9200 will one day, like her, know that he was wrong about Singaporeans :)

Many posters here don't realise it yet, but we on the ground know that with this election, something fundamental has changed in Singapore.

http://catherinelim.sg/2011/05/09/how-g ... lly-wrong/


Nice article. I feel the vibe that she describes, I just hope that it rides out as we hope.

p.s. My SGn wife has never shown any interest in politics what so ever, (on the flip side I am an absolute consumer of politics). So I am agog to see her 3 days later still going on and speaking critically and incisively about the election. It is a bit of a 'Hey darling what happened to you moment!' :) It mirrors the spirit described in the linked article, people who suddenly believe 'yes you can'. It's great! :)


Skimmed the article and I concur. I also get the same vibe from my local and politically aware friends.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Mon, 09 May 2011 11:38 pm

JR8, yes you have to feel it to understand what's happening. And yes it's great!

x9200 wrote:I can only talk for myself :) Pure pragmatics: the lack of democracy works for Singapore and I don't think ppl are here unhappy so why the need of the change if the outcome is at best uncertain? It is far from being perfect but again, it works. Secondly the democracy comes with the price. It is inevitably paid by the ordinary people who made the transformation possible but have no idea how this would affect their lives. If the country is being transformed from some commie underdeveloped state where people really suffer then this is IMO justified. Not the case for Singapore.


X9200 wrote:As I wrote earlier, fair enough if the whole nation, the coming generations are eventually the winner but I have some strong doubts if this would be the case for Singapore.


X9200, sorry if I misunderstood but it seemed to me from your previous posts that you were not referring to democracy in general but specifically that it can't work for Singapore.

With you, peace always. Even if we disagree on issues, it's never personal and I know you mean well :kiss:
Last edited by Wind In My Hair on Tue, 10 May 2011 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 10 May 2011 12:06 am

Much the same as what I've said very early on. True democracy, I don't personally think, will work in Singapore. Or in any Asian Country for that matter. Most, if not all, are paternalistic in nature and are run much the same way, with a strong man (or woman if need be) "dictating" at the top.

It's fair to say, however, that Singapore could very well be the exception to the rule, if for no other reason than her penchant for trying to ape the west at every turn. So, I guess we'll just have to see. I attended an interesting debriefing this evening with our former Minister. The ruling party does, indeed, realize that they have got to make internal changes and fast.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Tue, 10 May 2011 12:11 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:It's fair to say, however, that Singapore could very well be the exception to the rule

In 1965 they said we wouldn't make it either. We're used to being under-estimated :wink:

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 10 May 2011 12:20 am

Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan have no difficulty with democracy.

What is this need for a strong-man you speak of?

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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 10 May 2011 4:00 am

Wind In My Hair wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:It's fair to say, however, that Singapore could very well be the exception to the rule

In 1965 they said we wouldn't make it either. We're used to being under-estimated :wink:


WIMH, 1965, many were uneducated , filiel piety, "the master and the servant era" and the sense of insecurity for all immigrants amongst others were all against us. MM saw that and he made use of these to his advantage. Yes those were trying times, no doubt, as I was young then and has gone thru a number of riots, religious sect riots, triads war and the whole shebangs. Now is a totally different set of ball games. He has lost touch and he thought the tried and tested method works. It does not as all things evolve into something better or worse

BTW when I was here last month, a few of my mates knew the immigration policy will be chang if there was a major political shift. The white papers was already set and waiting for the GE result to be set in motion. As it turned out , things did change. I am not sure if this is good thing or not. Eitther way someone will lose out.
For all the people here, be prepared for rough times ahead.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatn ... icies.html
Last edited by Mad Scientist on Tue, 10 May 2011 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby JR8 » Tue, 10 May 2011 4:11 am

Mad Scientist wrote:For all the people here, be prepared for rough times ahead.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatn ... icies.html


From the linked article... the opposition garnered about 40% of the vote nationwide, but took only 6/87 seats.

The PAP better be doing some bending over backwards like an acrobat to keep the Opp voters happy... or, next time, it might be messy!

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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 10 May 2011 4:31 am

JR8 wrote:
Mad Scientist wrote:For all the people here, be prepared for rough times ahead.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatn ... icies.html


From the linked article... the opposition garnered about 40% of the vote nationwide, but took only 6/87 seats.

The PAP better be doing some bending over backwards like an acrobat to keep the Opp voters happy... or, next time, it might be messy!


JR8 precisely this is what has happened in GE 1997 when the opposition took Bukit Gombak, Jurong, Yishun, Potong Pasir and Hougang. Alot of promises and some things did change but it was too little too late,
It reared its ugly head again until the 2011 GE.
The people that PAP got currently are all Managers not a Single Leader. In Malaysia GE 2006/7 I think, Najib nearly lost his ward as he thought the people will support him but many were unhappy with UMNO and they vented their anger in the polling. The last M'sia GE where UMNO lost three states. Selangor, Penang and Perak. They managed to wrestle Perak back after some dodgy court rulings but it was messy, partly to blame for the split was Dr.M and Dr Anwar.The Gahmen needs to listen to the people.
No one in the PAP has the guts to have cosntructive views and voice it without fear of reprisal. Take a look at the Rental Properties. Oz, NZ, UK, has set up Tenancy Board that holds the deposit of the tenant and has a Tenancy Tribunal in place if things got messy between tenant and landlord. It has alot of teeth on its ruling. This idea was propose way back in the 90s but the Minister in charge does not want it as it wants a "free market" policy. This idea was shot dead even before it can took off. What is free about it when LL takes advantage of tenant by dodgy repair bills or tenant did damages in the rental proeprty and do a runner. I failed to understand why this was not done. Case and SMC can only do so much but has not much teeth. By holding the deposit, both party will come and sit on the table. It will be fair to both party involved. This one example , that I can think of. Till now it is still topsy turvy even with the introduction of CEA guidelines. It needs to protect all party involved, LL, Tenant and Agents. CEA only deals with agents.
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Postby x9200 » Tue, 10 May 2011 8:49 am

Wind In My Hair wrote:X9200, sorry if I misunderstood but it seemed to me from your previous posts that you were not referring to democracy in general but specifically that it can't work for Singapore.

Now I am very sure this is some kind of revenge for dragging you into more active participation in this discussion :)

This is in the post you responded with the above quotation:
W.I.M.H, the point you missed is that most of the time I was not really scoring Singaporeans but talking about some general behavior of the social groups and social responsibility of the elites. Hard to make it isolated from Singaporeans if the leitmotiv is GE in Singapore.

...general behaviour of social group got somehow transformed to Singapore democracy and yes, in Singapore but no specific negative behaviour typical of Singaporeans was pointed here out unless by my bad opinion on Singaporeans you mean I do not see them superior to other nations :)
Wind In My Hair wrote:With you, peace always. Even if we disagree on issues, it's never personal and I know you mean well :kiss:

Happy to hear it :) I think it would be good to rest this case.

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Postby x9200 » Tue, 10 May 2011 9:01 am

JR8 wrote:Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan have no difficulty with democracy.

1. They are less diversified including the culture and the racial landscape.
2. They have much more diversified resources to maintain stable/growing economy
3. Excluding perhaps Japan, they are not that economically successful as Singapore meaning this would be a step up here and step down there.

The whole trick IMHO is to maintain the wealth as failure in this area typically triggers some very nasty social processes.

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Postby ScoobyDoes » Tue, 10 May 2011 10:31 am

x9200 wrote:
JR8 wrote:Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan have no difficulty with democracy.

1. They are less diversified including the culture and the racial landscape.
2. They have much more diversified resources to maintain stable/growing economy
3. Excluding perhaps Japan, they are not that economically successful as Singapore meaning this would be a step up here and step down there.

The whole trick IMHO is to maintain the wealth as failure in this area typically triggers some very nasty social processes.



Actually..... I was going to comment that Japan certainly does have a problem with democracy given the number of Prime Ministers they can much through before breakfast.

Too much change and too often also results in nothing happening.
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Postby Wind In My Hair » Tue, 10 May 2011 11:07 am

Mad Scientist wrote:MM saw that and he made use of these to his advantage. Yes those were trying times, no doubt, as I was young then and has gone thru a number of riots, religious sect riots, triads war and the whole shebangs. Now is a totally different set of ball games. He has lost touch and he thought the tried and tested method works.

MS, you're right. He is still using hardball tactics, and curiously enough SM seems to be following suit. What people are saying is that everytime MM and SM open their mouths, PAP loses votes.

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 10 May 2011 5:11 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:
Mad Scientist wrote:MM saw that and he made use of these to his advantage. Yes those were trying times, no doubt, as I was young then and has gone thru a number of riots, religious sect riots, triads war and the whole shebangs. Now is a totally different set of ball games. He has lost touch and he thought the tried and tested method works.

MS, you're right. He is still using hardball tactics, and curiously enough SM seems to be following suit. What people are saying is that everytime MM and SM open their mouths, PAP loses votes.


Maybe it is a generational thing? When you have a population educated by the state and exposed to solely state funneled media it is simple to instill (brainwash) fear into the people.

Back during my first time in-country (mid-90s) the only people allowed satellite TV were embassies and bank trading floors (I seem to recall having 3am office parties to watch the Superbowl!). That was how tightly the PAP sought to staunch unregulated information. Those were the early days of the web and PAP Youth crawled likely websites to 'rebut' anything negative about SG. I distinctly recall local friends looking to see who was around them before discussing politics in public. I won't say 'police state', but the fear was palpable for those who involved themselves in politics in any way.

Now the web is so vast that the PAP have no hope of regulating it, and so people are free to read news, analyses and opinion that is not controlled. With the advent of Facebook those with sympathies for the opposition no longer feel isolated and hence vulnerable.

So yes I can understand the idea that MM and SM just lose votes. Enough of the people now feel they have the critical mass to be beyond being bullied by old men.

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Re: Opposition pre-election vid re: foreigners

Postby SGUS » Wed, 11 May 2011 11:35 pm

mbeza wrote:Anyone that has traveled to other countries will not be surprised by the reaction of singaporeans to foreing talent. some of them hate the word foreign talent - well, the truth is it is foreign talent. there is clearly not enough local talent.

Singaporeans don't understand that without foreign talent they would be as backward as some of their neighbours. The Singapore Govt is the smartest I know, but the citizens are not nearly as smart to get what the government is doing. This country relies purely on foreign trade and without foreign companies here, this is a poor country. The only developed sector here is the public sector - the govt.

So wake up people.


If you are comparing Singapore to developing countries around Singapore or any developing country, sure Singapore fares well except Singaporeans are not paying the lower standard of living like in those places; but are receiving stagnated wages. This is exactly what the govt have been telling people,the thing is what's the point of comparing to those who are worst off. I tend to believe most Singaporeans want to compete against to those on par with you or better than you, after all that's how the country can improve!

No doubt Singapore has benefitted from foreign companies and the foreign professionals these industries attract but the recent influx of foreigners,with no regards to skill levels, has major impact on the social and economic issues. Even a big immigrant country like USA brings in 65K new foreign professional each year; but Singapore took in 150K (both professional and non-professionals) each year in last few years, obviously that generates discontent among locals, wouldn't it?

In general, Singaporeans welcome managerial/professionals but not so much for the low skilled workers as the lower-skilled not only compete for low paying jobs but also resources in the HDB estates. On the other hand, the liberal policies that allow new PRs to get HDB apartments (and remember public housing in Singapore has no income restrictions as compared to say the US) has caused skyrocketed real estate price, as a result of well-to-do PRs buying both private apt and holding HDB flat. It also created shortage of affordable HDB housing for the younger generation. So this is double wammies for the locals. So most would agree that the immigration policies need to be looked at, should be more selective as to who they want in the country?


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