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Opposition pre-election vid re: foreigners

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Postby JR8 » Sun, 08 May 2011 7:39 am

Yep, still can't divine what the results are. Er, Aljunied and Hougang have gone to the opposition, but Potong Pasir was lost to the PAP issit?

Maybe?

Why so hard to find out a summary? Maybe we need to rely on the FT at another newspaper to write a simple summary :)

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sun, 08 May 2011 8:52 am

PAP 81, WP 6 (Aljunied GRC and Hougang SMC).

As expected, PAP stays in power despite all the scaremongering. But it knows its mandate has slipped significantly from last elections. Number of opposition MPs has tripled from 2 to 6. Almost quadrupled since Potong Pasir and Joo Chiat were lost by a hair's breadth (114 and 382 votes respectively). In several constituencies, the vote has swung 10% to opposition even though the PAP ultimately won. Most importantly, the psychological barrier that opposition can't win a GRC has been broken. And WP has built a brand name. Next election will be very exciting due to this momentum.

I'm glad Lee Hsien Loong's margin increased. I'm sad that we lost a good minister in George Yeo. My heart bleeds for Chiam See Tong. And now, life goes on much as normal, which is good.

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Postby BillyB » Sun, 08 May 2011 9:05 am

What was with all the spoiled votes? Fence sitting?

http://www.ge.sg/swingpercent/

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Postby JR8 » Sun, 08 May 2011 9:06 am

So Potong Pasir did go to PAP? Will they now have a big opening ceremony for the MRT stop? You know like, 'Here is the $100m MRT stop you paid for, and now you've voted in our PAP candidates on fat $200k and benefits a year we're going to open it after 6 years in mothballs'.

p.s. WIMH don't mourn George Yeo. 1st hand I hear (over great time) is that he is the nastiest of sexist workplace bullies. You see, if there was a free press and general opposition, perhaps everybody would already know that, or Yeo wouldn't feel like some untouchable little emperor.

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Postby x9200 » Sun, 08 May 2011 9:09 am

Wind In My Hair wrote:1) On fear: The opposition knows people are afraid of two things - that their vote is not secret, and that they will be punished for voting opposition. The opposition are simply telling people to vote with their hearts and conscience, and not from fear. Many who vote opposition this year are voting against fear. It's their way of saying to the PAP, "I'm not afraid of you anymore." Personally, I have not felt as proud of my country as I have in the past two weeks.

I misunderstood your previous post. I thought you meant fear of losing social stability, job, life style etc. so I was referring to the ani-foreigner sentiments - you already gave the answer to it to BillyB. For the fear of the above paragraph - is it really that many people who voted for that reason?
Wind In My Hair wrote:2a) On wealth: Each individual has to decide the price he is willing to pay. For me, I own residential and investment properties here and derive most of my income from MNCs. I know how much I stand to lose financially if our economy falters. At the same time, I ask myself what my life would mean if I'm wealthy but my nephews and niece grow up fearing to speak their minds, scared to be put away by the ISA if they make a wrong step politically. Or would I rather see my assets diminish, but watch those kids grow up freer and braver. Which scenario pains me more? What price do I put on the human spirit?

You seemed much less radical the other time when we discussed the secret police in the kopitiams vs freedom of speech, remember? :) Besides, IMO there is certain responsibility (moral at least) of the elites for the rest of the society. You know the price you are going to pay. Do they, less privileged know their price? I know I sound here a bit like a socialist but the emphasize is on fair play not some social/financial equity. As I wrote earlier, fair enough if the whole nation, the coming generations are eventually the winner but I have some strong doubts if this would be the case for Singapore.

Wind In My Hair wrote:2b) On stability: The past is not the future. Today's PAP is not the old guard PAP which had people of great calibre. I used to believe the PAP's claim that their selection process identifies the best talent in Singapore. Indeed opposition in the past have largely been clowns. This year however, there are at least 4 clowns in the PAP slate, with only one outstanding PAP candidate. The opposition side, while motley, has at least 6 people I want to see in parliament. Is it more stable to put all our eggs in one party regardless of who their candidates are, or to vote the best individuals and trust them to work together for the good of the country? Again this is a question each individual must answer for himself.

And how many clowns and unscrupulous individuals enrolled as the opposition candidates? Not only the top calibre people are important to the country and apparently (taking your above calibre remark) the status quo of Singapore is a proof of this.

Wind In My Hair wrote:I find it ironic that many expats say Singapore has a good economy but no soul, yet when Singaporeans show sign of choosing soul over economy, the expats panic. Also ironic when you say Singaporeans cannot think outside the box, yet when we challenge the status quo and envisage a different kind of country, it is the expats who believe that there is only one way that works - the current way.

Do you also have a clear vision how this can be done without sacrificing the well being of your citizens? W.I.M.H, it is not always about money even if the expats "panic". Besides. I never said there is no other way. I only said it would be difficult. Very difficult.

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Postby revhappy » Sun, 08 May 2011 9:22 am

By looking at the way the margin of victory is coming down, if you extrapolate, next election it should be closer to 55:45 and the election after that 50:50.

I dont think PAP are going to do anything different from what they have done so far, if they do, it will be detrimental for growth and the Singapore won't be what it is. So in any case clearly Singapore has another 10 years. Beyond that I don't see too much of a bright future.

Sad, the current generation who are wanting a change haven't seen how bad and currupt some other gahmens can be. All they are worried is about no space in MRT and HDB prices going up. Its when all foreigners go out and there are no more companies or jobs they can enjoy their MRT rides and live in their pigeon hole HDBs :lol:
Last edited by revhappy on Sun, 08 May 2011 9:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby x9200 » Sun, 08 May 2011 9:23 am

JR8 wrote:That said I don't think anyone is really looking for instant 'full democracy', for this election, the issue seems to be - stop stamping on any opposition action or voice, we've had enough of it, (and now we have a collective voice that you cannot strangle). Surely not too much to ask?

No I may sound stupid but: I don't know. An important part of the local culture is kind of unconditional surrender to smaller or bigger authorities. The employees do not question their bosses, the daughters do not question decision of their MiLs ..... how would it look if somebody openly questions the top authorities?

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Postby JR8 » Sun, 08 May 2011 9:24 am

First time I lived in SG was 94 and compared to today it was like a police state, run by the Stasi, where you would simply not discuss these kinds of matters in public. Yes you really did sit in the kopitiam and tell your friend 'shhh!' and look around you. I wonder if people get it now the palpable fear back then.

How times change...

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Postby JR8 » Sun, 08 May 2011 9:30 am

x9200 wrote:
JR8 wrote:That said I don't think anyone is really looking for instant 'full democracy', for this election, the issue seems to be - stop stamping on any opposition action or voice, we've had enough of it, (and now we have a collective voice that you cannot strangle). Surely not too much to ask?

No I may sound stupid but: I don't know. An important part of the local culture is kind of unconditional surrender to smaller or bigger authorities. The employees do not question their bosses, the daughters do not question decision of their MiLs ..... how would it look if somebody openly questions the top authorities?


It is a good point, a significant cultural difference. It can be hard for us westerners to try and accept.

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Postby x9200 » Sun, 08 May 2011 11:52 am

JR8 wrote:First time I lived in SG was 94 and compared to today it was like a police state, run by the Stasi, where you would simply not discuss these kinds of matters in public. Yes you really did sit in the kopitiam and tell your friend 'shhh!' and look around you. I wonder if people get it now the palpable fear back then.

How times change...

Could be I am naive but I think it all goes toward the full freedom and not necessarily because of the international pressure or the activities of the opposition.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 08 May 2011 11:55 am

As a home owner in the newly lost GRC, Aljunied, I'll be letting you all know how things have changed in coming months. It will be interesting to watch the gradual decline in services in our estates as existing contracts with the town councils expire and have to be renegotiated for less money, e.g., less services as the new town councils will have their budgets sharply curtailed. We've been told that lift upgrading will continue because the utilities have already been rerouted, but actually lift construction, aside from surveyor marks hasn't actually started yet. Same with the entire precinct upgrade (7.5 m) of which I am on the original steering committee (I'm also on the Lift upgrading steering committee).

Additionally, I'll be interested to see if the PAP DOES take the hint and continues to sharply curtail foreign talent (talented or otherwise).

Rev, I don't think your projections are accurate as I believe the twin wins of the WP will act like a magnet and I think the rate of change will accelerate (or go dramatically the other way possibly)

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Postby x9200 » Sun, 08 May 2011 12:16 pm

revhappy wrote:Sad, the current generation who are wanting a change haven't seen how bad and currupt some other gahmens can be.

My thoughts too. Not that it gives justification but it gives something missing here very much: a perspective.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sun, 08 May 2011 12:40 pm

x9200 wrote:You seemed much less radical the other time when we discussed the secret police in the kopitiams vs freedom of speech, remember? :)

And I still maintain that you can criticise the government openly in kopitiams. If this were not allowed, thousands of us who have been posting on Facebook will be in prison soon :)

And why do you say I'm radical just because I support the opposition? If this were so then about half of every democratic country is radical right?

x9200 wrote:Do you also have a clear vision how this can be done without sacrificing the well being of your citizens?

In this very election, we just witnessed how this is being done. Only credible opposition candidates from well-organised parties were voted in. If the opposition had won 20 seats, I would worry for Singapore because there aren't 20 credible candidates right now and people would be voting irrationally out of misdirected anger against the PAP. My countrymen are more discerning than you give them credit for, my friend. Liberalisation and democratisation is happening slowly but steadily, at a pace the country can handle.

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Postby Brah » Sun, 08 May 2011 12:48 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:I'll be interested to see if the PAP DOES take the hint and continues to sharply curtail foreign talent (talented or otherwise).


I was never sure of what that unfortunate term actually meant.

Does it refer to underpaid Burmese and PRC men riding dangerously and degradingly in pickup truck beds, performing backbreaking and dangerous work which no one else wants to do, living in filthy compounds, discriminated by many, while living far from their loved ones,

or if it implies the textbook whinging, corpulent and overpaid Westerners on full expat deals which include premium housing, expensive club memberships, car allowances and the like, that everyone likes to hate,

or it if refers to foreigners living here on local packages, also far from their loved ones back home, on modest salaries with few benefits and no company subsidies, paying a relatively high cost of living on a currency weaker than back home, and for some being double-taxed, in a less career-enriching environment that operates at a slower pace and with more limited promotional potential,

or, all of the above.

As one of the latter contingent, I can't help but think if the government decide to start 'curtailing' what companies have poured great time, effort and money into building up their Singapore offices, often while 'offshoring' staff from home offices to here, that these companies will start looking elsewhere. And the economic impact that will have for Singapore.

Actually it's kinda academic anyway, as Singapore has become too expensive for what was once considered a lower-cost alternative, and I predict that over the next 4-5 years that many MNCs will slowly decrease their emphasis on Singapore in favor of other locales, and then start migrating out to them. In some cases it's already begun.

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Postby JR8 » Sun, 08 May 2011 1:15 pm

x9200 wrote:
revhappy wrote:Sad, the current generation who are wanting a change haven't seen how bad and currupt some other gahmens can be.

My thoughts too. Not that it gives justification but it gives something missing here very much: a perspective.


How would they know if the current gubment is corrupt, who is going to tell them?

There is no opposition, to act as a check and balance.
There is no free media.
There is no concept of investigative journalism.


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