The BillyB, Aster & JR8 roundtable!

[aster]

Instead of recognizing the collective EU failure at every stage of this debacle, the creditor powers are taking out their fury on what is now a victim.'

Now that's complete bs... Greece is the victim? Funniest thing I've heard all year.

Gee, what next, those poor rioters in London were also victims who require assistance and help instead of jail time?

Seriously, you've gone completely overboard with this one...

[JR8]

Instead of recognizing the collective EU failure at every stage of this debacle, the creditor powers are taking out their fury on what is now a victim.'

Now that's complete bs... Greece is the victim? Funniest thing I've heard all year.

Gee, what next, those poor rioters in London were also victims who require assistance and help instead of jail time?

Seriously, you've gone completely overboard with this one...

The EU knew Greece lied and were frauds, and did nothing for perhaps a decade until now.

Why?

[JR8]

10yr Greeks hit 25% this morning. There is only one word for it, they are completely done for.

Meanwhile Spain and Italy are being kept afloat courtesy of the ECB. Italy have an auction today, will be interesting to see how that goes [stop-press: 5.6% for 5yrs - ugly].

[JR8]

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'Reuters are reporting that Nicolas Sarkozy and Angela Merkel will make "an announcement" on Greece later today - citing a French government source.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... -live.html
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Rather like the California and New York state governors announcing that they will make a joint announcement re: the fate of another state.

There is no further need to ponder who the EU is run for and by.

[aster]

Instead of recognizing the collective EU failure at every stage of this debacle, the creditor powers are taking out their fury on what is now a victim.'

Now that's complete bs... Greece is the victim? Funniest thing I've heard all year.

Gee, what next, those poor rioters in London were also victims who require assistance and help instead of jail time?

Seriously, you've gone completely overboard with this one...

The EU knew Greece lied and were frauds, and did nothing for perhaps a decade until now.

Why?

The police also stood there for a long time and did nothing but look at the rioting scum, does that make the thieving, vandalising vermin a victim in all this?

And funny how all the stories about how "they all knew" are only surfacing now.

[JR8]

Now that's complete bs... Greece is the victim? Funniest thing I've heard all year.

Gee, what next, those poor rioters in London were also victims who require assistance and help instead of jail time?
Seriously, you've gone completely overboard with this one...

The EU knew Greece lied and were frauds, and did nothing for perhaps a decade until now.

Why?

The police also stood there for a long time and did nothing but look at the rioting scum, does that make the thieving, vandalising vermin a victim in all this?

You don't seem to see any nuance at all, but I'll have another go.
- UK rioters were opportunistic scum involved in what I think was accurately described as 'shopping with violence'. I'd be happy to see them all shot. Ok?

- Greece are being forced to make austerity measures arguably 'for show' that have forced them into a massive downward spiral. I'll explain that slowly for you - rapidly shrinking economies cannot pay back rapidly rising debts. Ok?


And funny how all the stories about how "they all knew" are only surfacing now.

Er, there are published statements from the European Commission stating that that they knew Greece were a fraud. What further sort of proof would you require to accept that?

You'd have thought anyone with any common sense would have seen the obvious risks before Greece joined eh? Do you recall it was not so long ago that there was a movement to have Turkey join.... what is your view on that and has it changed since the Greece debacle?

Edit to add: Of course when Greece goes down, Portugal and Italy will be next in the sights. If Italy goes down then so will the French banking sector. That will be the end of the EU. Do you have any views on this situation?

[JR8]

[JR8]

Meanwhile in the UK:
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The Treasury is working on a package of reforms to spur growth, and Nick Clegg, the Deputy Prime Minister, has said that a “gear change”

[JR8]

'You more or less had to be either a politician, an academic, a media-type or on the EU payroll to not acknowledge the damage the EU has caused this country.'
http://www.talkcarswell.com/

Yeah, either that, or just a person blinded by personal financial self-interest.

[aster]

The UK has benefited greatly from being in the EU, or else it would not be part of it. All three political parties in the UK understand this fully, which leaves only delusional, populist idiots to argue against this in the hope of finding a cosy little niche for themselves in the political spectrum.

Free trade and a common market has created a very competitive economy in the UK, even the jump in the last several years has been astounding so it's not like these are benefits that have long been used up. Plus, the EU is the UK's main trading partner. Fancy being outside the club and having your goods hit with tariffs and barriers, at the simple whim of any EU country that lobbies for protection in this industry or another?

Back in the day the UK consumer was getting solidly raped on just about every product imaginable, with no regard for costs, sensible profit margins, etc. Today it's an entirely different ball game, with the "camouflage effect" of the Pound wearing off and playing a lesser role, and it's near parity to the Euro being helpful too. Amazing how things have changed.

[JR8]

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'Faith in the EU project or in the notion that governments might bailout-and-borrow to create wealth are to our generation what socialism was to the previous. In each case, they amount to a grand, collectivist endeavor of the elite. They are justified in terms of the supposed benefits they will bring to the economy - yet they end up destroying wealth.

And just like socialism, what is so surprising about faith in the EU or bailout-and-borrow economics, is that so many people who ought to have known better fell for it.'
http://www.talkcarswell.com/
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[JR8]

Re: the conference call last week between Germany, France and Greece.

Another thought provoking excerpt from John Redwood's blog.

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'.... They could have found the answers to these problems at any point in the last decade if they had wanted to. Instead, in good times and bad, they chose to ignore the dangers and avoided making decisions. They ducked the question of how they could stop countries free riding on the common currency and interest rate. They failed to discipline countries borrowing too much. They did not want to make the large cash transfers around the union in the way that is usual if you have a single currency. They did not even sort out what range of powers their Central Bank has, with German resignations over the policy of buying up bonds. Now they are torn over how many Euros to print, and how much money to tip into their damaged banks.

The gap between what is needed for a successful single currency and what is offered is huge. The markets do not believe the EU political leaders. The people in the affected countries increasingly dislike the scheme. The weak countries are fed up with the austerity it delivers. The strong countries are fed up with the tax bills they will receive to pay for it. The Euro lacks economic credibilty and lacks democratic authority. It would be best to break it up before it does more damage.

The phone call described the world as the leaders wish it to be – Greece in the Euro, Greece meeting all her obligations, and the markets believing all is now right. Somehow it does not feel like that. We still do not know how many sovereign bonds the European Central Bank will be allowed to buy. We do not know how they will pay for all those bonds. We do not know how many new Euros they will be allowed to print. We do not know why the EU is demanding Eurobonds when Germany rules them out., We do not know how they intend to strengthen their commercial banks. We do not know how long it will take to implement all the July measures.

In short, the single currency remains an orphan. There is no united single sovereign to love and protect it. There is no-one with enough power to make all the important decisions. The German government is at war with itself. Germany is in disagreement with other countries in the zone. The Commission is in disagreement with Germany.
http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/
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[JR8]

'Italy downgraded
- No one really cares any more'.

[JR8]

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The great euro swindle
'The field is theirs. They were not merely right about the single currency, the greatest economic issue of our age – they were right for the right reasons. They foresaw with lucid, prophetic accuracy exactly how and why the euro would bring with it financial devastation and social collapse.

Meanwhile, the pro-Europeans find themselves in the same situation as appeasers in 1940, or communists after the fall of the Berlin Wall. They are utterly busted. ... '
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comm ... indle.html

[JR8]

EC president Barroso urges deeper economic integration
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... ation.html

I (regrettably) have to concur with the below reader comment to the linked article.

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Hospitaller 5 hours ago
Recommended by 35 people
Barroso is a complete fool- he admits he is in a gigantic hole, and his response is to dig it deeper. The fundamental problem with the EU is that it is the work of idiots, they do not know what they are doing, they never listen and they never learn. This can only end in tragedy, there will be no managed Greek default- only a chaotic one and that will be the end of the euro and the end of the EU. The EU was established to bring order to Europe and it is having the opposite effect. The EU is a cancer on the face of the body politic and the time when it could be safely removed is probably gone now. All the options are bad.
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