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Moving to SG with long term girlfriend

Relocating, travelling or planning to make Singapore home? Discuss the criterias, passes or visa that is required.
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 12 Dec 2011 8:10 pm

zzm9980 wrote:
Grybs wrote:1) The company that are hiring me have asked for a S$5,000 deposit before they will endorse the LTVP paperwork. I don't have that sort of money at the moment, and I'd rather not borrow it.


That sounds really shady. Is it local or MNC?


The company may have had lots of WP holders and have had a number of them disappear thereby forfeiting there $5K bond. Maids have the same bond. So a lot of companies DO require a deposit for LTVP because if they sponsor them, regardless of what the "couple" do, the company, as a sponsor, is responsible for the repatriation of same.

As there is no legal relationship between the two other than the declaration to get the LTVP, it actually makes good sense from an employers POV.

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Postby Grybs » Mon, 12 Dec 2011 11:03 pm

Yeah, I figured the same as SMS. As the LTVP is presumably originally intended for somebody coming out to visit the WP holder, it's sensible to have some sort of insulation for the company.

This is another reason why I figure DP is more appropriate-- my GF is not coming out to visit me, we're moving to Singapore together.

Another notary's got back in touch and confirmed that it'll be a lot cheaper if I write the declarations myself. I figure I'll check with the embassy in London and if there's no problems, get it done this week.

Next hurdle: convincing the employer to endorse the DP paperwork in the absence of a marriage certificate!

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Postby zzm9980 » Tue, 13 Dec 2011 10:57 am

Oh ok, does make sense then. I didn't realize the sponsoring company would also have to submit a bound for LTVP.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 13 Dec 2011 11:15 am

zzm9980 wrote:Oh ok, does make sense then. I didn't realize the sponsoring company would also have to submit a bound for LTVP.


Normally they don't. But as I pointed out, as the sponsor, they ARE responsible for repatriation of the person on an LTVP should something go belly up in the relationship or what have you. Considering there is no legal relationship between the EP holder and the LTVP holder, it's a gamble on the local company's part to sponsor someone with no real legal marital status.

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Postby ecureilx » Tue, 13 Dec 2011 11:36 am

Grybs wrote:1) The company that are hiring me have asked for a S$5,000 deposit before they will endorse the LTVP paperwork. I don't have that sort of money at the moment, and I'd rather not borrow it.


There used to be an insurance type system, where you put up the premium to cover the bond, instead of forking out the 5,000 $, if you are having problem putting up the 5,000 $ .. I used it for an unrelated

That was like 7 years ago.

I need to check if such system still exists ..

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 13 Dec 2011 5:24 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote: Considering there is no legal relationship between the EP holder and the LTVP holder, it's a gamble on the local company's part to sponsor someone with no real legal marital status.


I'd say that there might be a legal relationship (albeit not a marriage), but it depends on many factors:
- There is no such thing as common law marriage, and hence spouse in the UK
- Certain US states recognise it, others don't.
- California does not, but it recognises a common law marriage entered into in a state where they are recognised.

Confused? I am :)

Quite how the UK embassy go about certifying a legal relationship that cannot exist is beyond me.

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 13 Dec 2011 6:33 pm

I recently went to have a copy of the details page of my passport notarised at a British consulate. The company I needed to provide the document to had their required wording 'I do hereby certify that this photograph is a true likeness.... etc'.

The consul told me that they had their own similar template wording from the FCO ['head office'] that they had to use. As she put it 'We are not trained lawyers and cannot estimate the possible effects of using an alternative wording'.

So quite how you can walk into a British consulate (and perhaps those of other countries with similar rules) and expect them to certify something as subjective as a common-law spouse is beyond me.

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Postby Grybs » Tue, 13 Dec 2011 7:35 pm

A small correction: I believe it's stated in the other thread that the embassy that you need to get to notarise is the Singaporean embassy in the home country.

In this case, I think we're going for a declaration of a cohabiting relationship, which we will suggest confers in some respects similar status as marriage.

(In fact the only area that I have personally encountered in which this is the case in the UK is in the area of taxation-- we have the right to be taxed as a married couple. :? )

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 13 Dec 2011 8:10 pm

Grybs wrote:A small correction: I believe it's stated in the other thread that the embassy that you need to get to notarise is the Singaporean embassy in the home country.


Man I'm confused :). Going back to the ICA quote, their www says, re: the LTVP:
--------------------
Common-law Spouse - A copy of the Employment Pass holder’s statutory declaration of relationship with the applicant.

- A letter from the Employment Pass holder’s embassy confirming the status of the holder’s common-law marriage to the applicant in their country (if applicable).
---------------------
So that would not be a Singapore embassy/consulate. But to confuse matters I know that an Australian same-sex partner of an Australian EP holder was 'accredited' by the Singapore High Comm in Australia for a Dependent Pass. At that time it was news, as it was a first.



In this case, I think we're going for a declaration of a cohabiting relationship, which we will suggest confers in some respects similar status as marriage.


Is 'cohabiting relationship' the same as that that creates a 'common-law spouse', especially in a jurisdiction in which the term is a turn of phrase rather than a recognised legal status. Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting at all what you're saying or that it will work in your situation. This is a topic of wide interest and I'm simply trying to thrash out what seems rather unclear. When ICA used to say 'Spouse', they meant married, full-stop. Now they say 'common-law spouse'.... and it is far from clear to me what that actually encompasses.


(In fact the only area that I have personally encountered in which this is the case in the UK is in the area of taxation-- we have the right to be taxed as a married couple. :? )

Have you really! Genuine wow! How do you establish it, self-declaration? To be honest I didn't know the UK still had a Married Person's tax allowance


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Postby Grybs » Wed, 14 Dec 2011 12:52 am

Hmm, yes that is the quote from the ICA, but 1) that's for the LTVP and 2) we'd be dealing with the MOM surely?

From MadScientist's post in the Mulherengo thread:

MadScientist wrote:From the past forumer, you have to get it notorise and show proof of common law marriage from the Singapore Mission near you.


And from sundaymorningstaple:

sundaymorningstaple wrote:It has to come from you own embassy.


Applying from the UK, surely getting anything notarised by the British embassy in Singapore is basically impossible. The Singaporean embassy in London seemed to be up for notarising things when I called them, so maybe that's the way to go.

I agree that in the UK there's no such thing as a "common law marriage" (and therefore no such thing as a "common law spouse"), but it is a fairly widespread turn of phrase. I've noticed over the past year or so that whenever I fill in any paperwork (for banks, or for the local council, or for whatever) the "relationship status" box only gives you two options: "Single", or "Married/living with partner". So they clearly don't make the distinction.

Sorry for the confusion re: married person's tax allowance. I meant in terms of Council Tax reduction when one of you is out of work, which carries over into other areas of the "welfare state". Basically so long as one of you is earning a salary they assume you're both fine. :)

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 14 Dec 2011 1:47 am

Grybs wrote:Hmm, yes that is the quote from the ICA, but 1) that's for the LTVP and 2) we'd be dealing with the MOM surely?

From MadScientist's post in the Mulherengo thread:

MadScientist wrote:From the past forumer, you have to get it notorise and show proof of common law marriage from the Singapore Mission near you.


And from sundaymorningstaple:

sundaymorningstaple wrote:It has to come from you own embassy.


Applying from the UK, surely getting anything notarised by the British embassy in Singapore is basically impossible. The Singaporean embassy in London seemed to be up for notarising things when I called them, so maybe that's the way to go.


Yup, I think it is fair to say that the position here is one of being officially confused! (LTVP's are issued by ICA and ICA alone. The irony is that now from a previous position of not being able to bring in other than husband or wife on a DP to an EP, there now seems two choices DP or LTVP on the EP). This needs light shedding on it I think...



I agree that in the UK there's no such thing as a "common law marriage" (and therefore no such thing as a "common law spouse"), but it is a fairly widespread turn of phrase.

Yep, might be for the UK. But ICA are speaking to every nationality with their website instructions, hence the puzzlement at their ambiguity.


I've noticed over the past year or so that whenever I fill in any paperwork (for banks, or for the local council, or for whatever) the "relationship status" box only gives you two options: "Single", or "Married/living with partner". So they clearly don't make the distinction.

Probably because in the UK if they didn't give you the appropriate 'together but not married' status box, you could sue them for breach of hyooman rites, and hert feelings too. Hehehhe... SG does not do such 'niceties'...


Sorry for the confusion re: married person's tax allowance. I meant in terms of Council Tax reduction when one of you is out of work, which carries over into other areas of the "welfare state". Basically so long as one of you is earning a salary they assume you're both fine. :)

OIC. Blimey that's really evil, but that said why does it not surprise me... ! :-P


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Postby JR8 » Wed, 14 Dec 2011 7:40 pm

Bump.

It'd be really nice if Professor MS could give an opinion of my first para above in blue...

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:24 pm

Okay. Now that you all have thoroughly confused the situation so nobody knows what the devil is fact & fiction, it's time I wade into it AGAIN.

I will make it simple as I am taking the information directly from the MOM website.


I wish to stay in Singapore with my spouse/parent
Pass, Permit or Programme

Dependant's Pass


Type of applicants
Spouses and unmarried or legally adopted children below the age of 21 years of Employment Pass and S Pass holders who wish to stay in Singapore with the pass holder.

Pass holders should have a fixed monthly salary ≥ $2,800.

Long Term Visit Pass Family members of P1 and P2 Employment Pass holders who wish to stay in Singapore with the pass holder. These include:

Common-law spouses
Unmarried daughters above 21 years of age
Handicapped children above 21 years of age
Stepchildren under 21 years of age
Parents and parents-in-law



Employment Pass - Before you apply
About the Pass


Passes for Family Members


Successful applicants can bring in their families under one of these passes:

If you are a P Pass Holder

Which pass?

Dependant's Pass

For who?

Spouse
Unmarried or legally adopted children under 21 years old

Long Term Visit Pass

Common-law Spouse;
Unmarried daughters above 21 years old
Handicapped children above 21 years old
Step-children under 21 years old
Parents
Parents-in-law

Q1 Employment Pass Dependant’s Pass

Spouse
Unmarried or legally adopted children under 21 years old


Definitions:

Spouse:

A legal marriage exists in the couple's home country and a marriage license can be produced. This is why some same sex relationships here have be able to secure Dependents passes.

Common Law or de facto Spouse:

A relationship which is not a legal marriage in the Employee's home country but does in fact exist. Hence a statutory declaration is acceptable if certified by an approved entity. Common Law spouses can ONLY get a LTVP. Same sex couples mostly fall into this category, but we did have one couple on here earlier this year who had a legal marriage in the state of Massachusetts I believe.

Long Term Visit Pass - Before you apply
Eligibility

P1, P2 Employment Pass holders may apply for Long Term Visit Passes for their:

Common-law Spouse
Unmarried daughters above 21 years of age
Handicapped children above 21 years of age
Stepchildren under 21 years of age
Parents and parents-in-law

Documents required

In general, these documents and information are required for Long Term Visit Pass applications:

Long Term Visit Pass Application Form

Download Long Term Visit Pass Application Form
The applicant must be sponsored by a well-established Singapore-registered company, normally the employer of the Employment Pass holder.
The form must be endorsed with the company's stamp or seal, and signed by the applicant and an authorised officer from the sponsoring company.
A parent’s signature is required for children aged 16 years and below
Photograph of the applicant (passport-sized and taken within last three months)
Personal particulars page of applicant’s passport/travel document

Important information:

Applicants who hold non-English documents or certificates are required to submit a copy of the original papers and the official English translation done by a certified translator, High Commission/Embassy or a notary public.


The bolded blue text would also be acceptable for the Statutory Declaration.....



Additional documents required

These additional documents are required based the applicant’s relationship with the Employment Pass holder:
Family member Additional documents required
Common-law Spouse - A copy of the Employment Pass holder’s statutory declaration of relationship with the applicant.

- A letter from the Employment Pass holder’s embassy confirming the status of the holder’s common-law marriage to the applicant in their country (if applicable).


This should clarify the matter once & for all. (until MOM changes it again!)

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Postby Mad Scientist » Thu, 15 Dec 2011 3:36 am

JR8 wrote:Bump.

It'd be really nice if Professor MS could give an opinion of my first para above in blue...


I do not know which of your posts you want me to comment.
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 15 Dec 2011 3:38 am

No probs, SMS has had a good go at clearing it up.

Funny thing is that MoM seem willing to issues LTVPs to people who 'have a relationship... which exists' :?


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