How do you look at china and future of china

[Plavt]

I 'll just turn my back to this usual inability to hold a civil discussion to the usual accusations. Quick impressions out of context?

You may have read much but you clearly don't understand much and as a result resort to making unfounded accusations. Dear me another who cannot see the wood from the trees. As for inability to hold a civil discussion, have a good look at most of your own postings.

[Vaucluse]

As for history being written by the victor . . . also rubbish in terms. Western history books are not a duplicate of Communist Chinese versions of history

As far as I know what's written in Dutch textbook for pupils about their colonial time in Indonesia was not really true, so were in the history books of Belgium about their time in Congo. Only decades later they corrected it (around 90's?). What about the American Indian history in the US textbooks before, e.g. Indian removal?

You miss my point . . . how is Chinese history, as taught in China comparable to Chinese history taught in the west? Chinese textbooks gloss over the tens of millions brutally murdered under Mao's regime (and ensuing leaders), where other's history books do not.

tyanchang wrote:

Can't believe it's so easy of you to slap down a heinous crime on a dead man unable to defend himself!!

What does that mean?

tyanchang wrote:

At least China tried to create an equal society; the failure came from humankind.

I hate to burst your bubble in a few ways . . .

a) Communism is a western perception
b) 'China' is a country and cannot by itself do anything. 'China' tried nothing, some leaders did . . . and messed it up completely with mass murders, mass starvation, decimation of the intellectual and professional classes etc...


I do love discussing China and their hypocrisy, their complete and utter hypocrisy . . . their shameless and wantonly furious responses to Japan not including certain events in their history books . . . when China's history books reflect very little, if any, of the damage done, the wiping out of classes of people . . . the heinous murder of millions of their own people.

China is a country that is sustained by false radical nationalism and flames of hatred fanned by their government . . . the same government that is guilty of mass-murders in the tens of millions

[tyianchang]

His rule led to c.50 million Chinese deaths, and you're talking about 'positives'.
Breath-taking!
p.s. What next, the positives of Hitler's rule?

Can't believe it's so easy of you to slap down a heinous crime on a dead man unable to defend himself!!

JR8
[Monty Python grockle voice] Oh I know, we really shouldn't be mean to that nice Mr. Mao. I mean he might have been a genocidal dictator responsible for 50m+ deaths but he isn't here to reply. Oh I know Gladys. Edna from number six was extolling the virtues of the nazi party earlier today. Oh was she what did she say? Well, she said that they were very dapper dressers and took artistic photos of svelte looking blondes doing gymnastics. Oh yes Doris we do like a well ironed pair of dress jodhpurs, never mind the 24m people that Hitler killed. Oh sorry dear I completely forgot I wasn't meant to mention the genocide as Mr. Hitler is no longer with us in order to reply [and so on and so forth at great length.... ]


... At least China tried to create an equal society; the failure came from humankind.


JR8
Since you're not even Chinese (apparently), and given the rampant drum-beating, do you think it might it be fair to describe you as a Maoist?

Well, I'm only Chinese by birth. What are you, Irish, Ango-Saxon, Scot etc? It all means nothing to me but that's how they classify, and it might have some validity. Who knows?
News of China was banned and not allowed in Malaysia, even the UK, so I read and listened to friends. But I make my own analysis and perception, and that's thanks to people like the French deconstructionists though they simply confirmed my own understanding.
I wouldn't consider talking to anyone linking Mao to Hitller really; but you're the exception since you're fixated with the notion of robots and I don't like them either.
As a historical fact, the Nazis tried to get the commnuist party on their side and there was supposed to be an agent under the name Blue... who was in touch with the Nationalists. Communists are Marxists and don't assocaite with fascism. Shanghai was the only country opened to Jewish immigrants in the time of Hitler and Rewi Alley, who is Jewish, is close to Mao is honoured to this day.

Mao certainly didn't genocide any number of Chinese - it was a war situation, with natural disasters to make things worse. I read a book by someone in the inner core who wrote a book - ( find it in the Great Britain -China centre in Belgravia ) confessed later on how Mao tried to save an individual democratic thinker from death but in his absence, the second-in-charge renewed the sentence and how that affected Mao for some time.

Being different is not wrong but is being free of mass hysteria. I'm not a Maoist in any political sense, don't think I have any leanings to any party -right or left, they all have their valid points. But yes, I admire the good things Mao had done for China by providing a leadership that takes it to the present day. There 's plenty of room for improvements - perhaps culprits taken to court to get justice seen to etc but if you're asking a Chinese woman , I think they all see him as holding up half the sky.

[JR8]

Read acrefully before you lash out. I was making a general remark that in no way implied either Bonavia or Frazer. To me, writers who have not lived through or read of the harrowing grinding lives of the mainland Chinese for 2.5 centuries

Bolth Bonavia and Frazer were posted to China for several years! Since individuals don't live 2.5 centuries they can only assess using history and whatever the present situation is. I would have hoped somebody who claims to be a teacher would have realized that before as usual spouting a lengthy diatribe which I and I suspect many others rarely read much of.

I 'll just turn my back to this usual inability to hold a civil discussion to the usual accusations. Quick impressions out of context? That's with no offence to the writers themselves. They can either issue from missionaries who have bonded with China or read widely.
Another personal attack? I don't claim anything. Some of the best teachers get reviled in the UK- that's just street culture for you - stereotypes, bullies and one liners.
And you're calling for democary???lol

[tyianchang]

I 'll just turn my back to this usual inability to hold a civil discussion to the usual accusations. Quick impressions out of context?

You may have read much but you clearly don't understand much and as a result resort to making unfounded accusations. Dear me another who cannot see the wood from the trees. As for inability to hold a civil discussion, have a good look at most of your own postings.

Please direct your argy bargy to the toilet bowl. lol

[Eau2011]

Mao certainly didn't genocide any number of Chinese - it was a war situation, with natural disasters to make things worse. I read a book by someone in the inner core who wrote a book - ( find it in the Great Britain -China centre in Belgravia ) confessed later on how Mao tried to save an individual democratic thinker from death but in his absence, the second-in-charge renewed the sentence and how that affected Mao for some time.

Yes Hitler also did not genocide any number of Jews by himself, neither Himmler, Bormann etc. But they were all sentenced to death. My uncle, was a professor in an uni in Shanghai. He was 10 years in jail because he criticised the Culture Revolution. My another uncle was a doctor, he committed suicide for he could not stand the torture by Red Guards. he left his wife and three kids. A family stories among hundreds of thousands family stories.

if you're asking a Chinese woman , I think they all see him as holding up half the sky

haha, that's not said nowdays anymore...just embarrassing...

[Eau2011]

@ JR8,

why bother???

It's anyway one of 50c Army...

Waste of time...

[tyianchang]

As for history being written by the victor . . . also rubbish in terms. Western history books are not a duplicate of Communist Chinese versions of history

As far as I know what's written in Dutch textbook for pupils about their colonial time in Indonesia was not really true, so were in the history books of Belgium about their time in Congo. Only decades later they corrected it (around 90's?). What about the American Indian history in the US textbooks before, e.g. Indian removal?

You miss my point . . . how is Chinese history, as taught in China comparable to Chinese history taught in the west? Chinese textbooks gloss over the tens of millions brutally murdered under Mao's regime (and ensuing leaders), where other's history books do not.

tyanchang wrote:

Can't believe it's so easy of you to slap down a heinous crime on a dead man unable to defend himself!!

What does that mean?

tyanchang wrote:

At least China tried to create an equal society; the failure came from humankind.

I hate to burst your bubble in a few ways . . .

a) Communism is a western perception
b) 'China' is a country and cannot by itself do anything. 'China' tried nothing, some leaders did . . . and messed it up completely with mass murders, mass starvation, decimation of the intellectual and professional classes etc...
China is not interested in making cliams for itself - the acid test is on the global stage.
China already has a unification from the days of the Qin emperor that can embrace communist structures; but they had to fight to be communists. Most of the intellectuals, students and dispossesseds were murdered by the KMTs, Japanese and some British. Are you really on the murderous side ???

I do love discussing China and their hypocrisy, their complete and utter hypocrisy . . . their shameless and wantonly furious responses to Japan not including certain events in their history books . . . when China's history books reflect very little, if any, of the damage done, the wiping out of classes of people . . . the heinous murder of millions of their own people.

Such speaks a China hater.

China is a country that is sustained by false radical nationalism and flames of hatred fanned by their government . . . the same government that is guilty of mass-murders in the tens of millions

I don't know where you've been, but I really thought you had a better standard. There's no hatred in China when I was there - just lovely people but if they were to confront hatred, there the problem begins, Mind you, I'm not saying there're no bad Chinese; or good Chinese.

[Eau2011]

I hadn't seen those articles, but it's exactly what I said. Adopt (the basic technology), Adapt (for usage in China), Adept (become adept at creating their own model). Let's face it, they watched Japan do exactly the same thing since the 1950's.

Not long ago China invented paper, gun powder, the compass, silk etc . Google Sir Joseph Needham's works. Japan had a motive to lead Asia nd rid it of the foreign colonialists- China had aspired to do its own thing as far back as the 1870s. Read the corresondence between Viceroy Li HUng Chang and the US delegate USGrant.
Japan had an imperialist goal to conquer Asia for its resources; China started with the Marxist universal brotherhood maxim and pursue that for business but as they say in China 'Business is no business.' At least China tried to create an equal society; the failure came from humankind.

To be honest, among young generations we were told it's just embarrassing to always mention the 4 inventions thousand of years ago, nothing new? nothing in the contemporary history???
This article below is written in Chinese by Chinese, they even know themselves they are lack of invention and ideas!!
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4fe548220100gof8.html

[Eau2011]

[quote="VaucluseI do love discussing China and their hypocrisy, their complete and utter hypocrisy . . . their shameless and wantonly furious responses to Japan not including certain events in their history books . . . when China's history books reflect very little, if any, of the damage done, the wiping out of classes of people . . . the heinous murder of millions of their own people.

Such speaks a China hater.

Please seperate China and its government, they are two different things. A China lover could still love China but not CCP, e.g. me.

[JR8]

@ JR8,
why bother???
It's anyway one of 50c Army...
Waste of time...

Yes, in most respects I agree it is quite ridiculous. In another though some things said are so offensive and/or ridiculous that it is hard to overlook them.

Of course it is all the more powerful by 100x coming from someone like yourself, who is not relying on a few books read in Belgravia (London) for their opinions.

[JR8]

I planted a forest in Bavaria you know!

[tyianchang]

Mao certainly didn't genocide any number of Chinese - it was a war situation, with natural disasters to make things worse. I read a book by someone in the inner core who wrote a book - ( find it in the Great Britain -China centre in Belgravia ) confessed later on how Mao tried to save an individual democratic thinker from death but in his absence, the second-in-charge renewed the sentence and how that affected Mao for some time.

Yes Hitler also did not genocide any number of Jews by himself, neither Himmler, Bormann etc. But they were all sentenced to death. My uncle, was a professor in an uni in Shanghai. He was 10 years in jail because he criticised the Culture Revolution. My another uncle was a doctor, he committed suicide for he could not stand the torture by Red Guards. he left his wife and three kids. A family stories among hundreds of thousands family stories.

if you're asking a Chinese woman , I think they all see him as holding up half the sky

haha, that's not said nowdays anymore...just embarrassing...

I don't understand your comparison with the German murderer. Mao was a victim of such atrocities - his wife and some children were murdered and he was against killing except in the battlefield. The communist had Chiang Kai Shek but they didn't kill him even though he had shot many young communists dead and tortured many more. These were the facts.

I'm sorry to hear about your family tragedy. There were hundreds as I've read of but not heard of. My friends told me about the chaos of that time - generals joining different groups and infightings going on . I believe it was never Mao's idea to create such tragedies but rather, an ideology that will see China continue its revolution instead of slipping back into the die hard traditions of ancient China. The cultural revolution was like overhauling a gigantic white elephant in the need to have a new China, but in its journey, many were trampled upon, some with fatal consequences. I do think there's still violence, especaiily verbal ones, as well as cruelties like I'd read of in feudal China, in some Chinese.

I'm not demeaning human life, but I find that suicide seems to be a thing in Chinese culture. In the past, some women forced into unwanted marraiges, often took their own lives. I've heard of about 2 suicides - because of love or family complications, from the Chinese students.

Are you Chinese and have you lived in China? I'm afraid I'm rather resilient to stories until they're tried and tested in the war of ideologies. I was also made aware of fabricated stories by economic immigrants not just from China, but many other places. I believe that virtue speaks louder than words - I've met many Chinese students and most of them were a beauty to behold in their exquisite refinement of carriage, manners and lingo.

[Eau2011]

I planted a forest in Bavaria you know!

That's funny....

I have a really good video you might want to see it unless you understand German, especially Bavarian accent.

[Eau2011]

That's video about Hitler and car leasing contract.

Some film students combined a comedian's voice and the documentation film of Hitler.

Everytime when I watch it, I can really laugh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgkOqGbiMhk