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How do you look at china and future of china

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Vaucluse
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Postby Vaucluse » Tue, 22 Feb 2011 4:11 pm

nakatago wrote:
Eau2011 wrote:If you are talking about maglev train in Shanghai, 450km/h. That's made in Germany by Siemens and TyssenKrupp.


...which the Chinese probably have already copied.


Ah, my friend . . . it is one thing to copy a barbie doll,it is something entirely different copying a train capable of doing 450 km/h

As for only understanding history if you have been through it - rubbish.

As for history being written by the victor . . . also rubbish in general terms. Western history books are not a duplicate of Communist Chinese versions of history
......................................................

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Postby nakatago » Tue, 22 Feb 2011 4:19 pm

Vaucluse wrote:
nakatago wrote:
Eau2011 wrote:If you are talking about maglev train in Shanghai, 450km/h. That's made in Germany by Siemens and TyssenKrupp.


...which the Chinese probably have already copied.


Ah, my friend . . . it is one thing to copy a barbie doll,it is something entirely different copying a train capable of doing 450 km/h


My comment was partly tongue-in-cheek: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704814204575507353221141616.html

and then this:

http://expressbuzz.com/finance/high-speed-train-not-a-copy-china/225432.html

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Postby Eau2011 » Tue, 22 Feb 2011 4:29 pm

Vaucluse wrote:
nakatago wrote:
Eau2011 wrote:If you are talking about maglev train in Shanghai, 450km/h. That's made in Germany by Siemens and TyssenKrupp.


...which the Chinese probably have already copied.


Ah, my friend . . . it is one thing to copy a barbie doll,it is something entirely different copying a train capable of doing 450 km/h

As for only understanding history if you have been through it - rubbish.

As for history being written by the victor . . . also rubbish in terms. Western history books are not a duplicate of Communist Chinese versions of history


As far as I know what's written in Dutch textbook for pupils about their colonial time in Indonesia was not really true, so were in the history books of Belgium about their time in Congo. Only decades later they corrected it (around 90's?). What about the American Indian history in the US textbooks before, e.g. Indian removal?
Last edited by Eau2011 on Tue, 22 Feb 2011 4:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 22 Feb 2011 4:31 pm

I hadn't seen those articles, but it's exactly what I said. Adopt (the basic technology), Adapt (for usage in China), Adept (become adept at creating their own model). Let's face it, they watched Japan do exactly the same thing since the 1950's.

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Postby Eau2011 » Tue, 22 Feb 2011 4:43 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:I hadn't seen those articles, but it's exactly what I said. Adopt (the basic technology), Adapt (for usage in China), Adept (become adept at creating their own model). Let's face it, they watched Japan do exactly the same thing since the 1950's.


That's true...

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Postby tyianchang » Tue, 22 Feb 2011 5:15 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:I hadn't seen those articles, but it's exactly what I said. Adopt (the basic technology), Adapt (for usage in China), Adept (become adept at creating their own model). Let's face it, they watched Japan do exactly the same thing since the 1950's.


Not long ago China invented paper, gun powder, the compass, silk etc . Google Sir Joseph Needham's works. Japan had a motive to lead Asia nd rid it of the foreign colonialists- China had aspired to do its own thing as far back as the 1870s. Read the corresondence between Viceroy Li HUng Chang and the US delegate USGrant.
Japan had an imperialist goal to conquer Asia for its resources; China started with the Marxist universal brotherhood maxim and pursue that for business but as they say in China 'Business is no business.' At least China tried to create an equal society; the failure came from humankind.
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Re: How do you look at china and future of china

Postby tyianchang » Tue, 22 Feb 2011 5:18 pm

JR8 wrote:
tyianchang wrote: I'm all too familair with the China flop stories and China bashing. I will get the writers from the other side of the coin for you - in goodtime. The positive things eg. Mao



His rule led to c.50 million Chinese deaths, and you're talking about 'positives'.

Breath-taking! :shock:

p.s. What next, the positives of Hitler's rule?


Can't believe it's so easy of you to slap down a heinous crime on a dead man unable to defend himself!!
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Postby paulzheng » Tue, 22 Feb 2011 5:29 pm

Expat_guy wrote:In my opinion, it depends on how they do the transition from one party autocratic rule to multiparty democracy. They did a wonderful job transitioning from communism to capitalistic economy and once the people have got money, enough food, stable jobs they will start asking for more. If the communist party of china and the army understands this and facilitate a smooth transition then we can see a China dominating the world otherwise, they may have a bloody revolution or a civil war which will take them back by few decades.


then, you think how big will be the probablity of peaceful transition from one party autocratic rule to multiparty democracy?

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Re: How do you look at china and future of china

Postby Plavt » Tue, 22 Feb 2011 5:48 pm

tyianchang wrote:Read acrefully before you lash out. I was making a general remark that in no way implied either Bonavia or Frazer. To me, writers who have not lived through or read of the harrowing grinding lives of the mainland Chinese for 2.5 centuries


Bolth Bonavia and Frazer were posted to China for several years! Since individuals don't live 2.5 centuries they can only assess using history and whatever the present situation is. I would have hoped somebody who claims to be a teacher would have realized that before as usual spouting a lengthy diatribe which I and I suspect many others rarely read much of. :roll:

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Postby tyianchang » Tue, 22 Feb 2011 5:54 pm

ksl wrote:
revhappy wrote:Politics in China started to change after Mao's blunders, it was obvious that China had to transit into a market economy and to do that was no easy task...the strategy was geared up to convince all, that the market economy was a planned communistic move to keep solidarity and they have succeeded very well.

Many writers now revaluate the so called Mao's blunders e.g. great leap forward, cultural revolution, five year plans etc to have sowed the seeds for the present market economy.

Though technology wise they are still reliant on the USA and other foreign lands....The Countries massive population, and growth indicates that the US and Europe are reliant on the giant. No matter which Country you are in, nationalists will cry out loud at Chinese made products, however they are made on licence mostly, for the business manufacturers of the world.

When I was getting a visa from the Chinese embassy, I met a group of British joint manufacturers - light bulbs, furniture , textiles etc talking about their bright business prospects and that was in 1999. The point is, it's not just a Chinese market economy - it's open to the world.

Russia didn't have a look in once weaknesses showed in its hardware, and Japan was only superior in the technology and manufacturing field for a short while pricing itself out of the market.

Marxism needs to be backed up by a culture of diligence and entrpreneaurial expertise either through ancient traditions or experiments in the mass mobilized backyards.[/color

The rumour is that simplistic Chinese was implemented, so that the population couldn't read all the errors of the past, I'm beginning to believe that China's leaders are all fox's herding their sheep in the direction they want.

[color=green]Rumours indeed. Simplified Chinese was thought out in 1879 in the New Youth Journal Xin Ching Nien (translated new, clear studies) created by Chen Tu Hsu who was a progressive and favoured democracy and science for China. His and the works of others created a new vernacular language - Chien Di Tze or Pudong hua - common language, as against Fan di Tze of the classical works. The need to reform China's traditional imperial system started during the midterm of the Qing dynsaty. Don't forget, the West was not the only model for China - China had had ancient contacts with SE Asia, the ME and India long before Hongkong was created.


Taiwan is infiltrated and I'm pretty sure China's long term strategy as been to plant seeds even in Singapore, for long term interests. Though understanding political and military strategies along with industrial espionage is more often seen in films, you can bet your life, that it is happening on the ground in real time at this moment.

Taiwan was nationalist escape bolt for Chiang Kai Shek and his troops who had punished China enough with their corruption and cooperation with the Japanese. Many friends told me that then, under the KMT, some Chinese could get killed for $15. The old generalismo even put his nephew Chang Xue Liang, under eternal house arrest when he kidnapped his uncle for a united China to face the encroaching Japanese. That says a lot for the Chinese in Taiwan though the Taiwanese natives are more of my kindred.

Though the sheer numbers of China's growth and financial power is a major indicator of where we are heading. No other Country only India has the numbers, that could compete and they are a long way behind just now.


China endorsed the one child policy which is a reflection for Chinese tenets - they don;t like to put troubles at your doorstep but would rather independently solve their own problems- I can imagine what they'll say to their being specualted and talked about, especially negatively.
'Aiya... dao luan (headache)...." lol
Last edited by tyianchang on Tue, 22 Feb 2011 6:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby paulzheng » Tue, 22 Feb 2011 5:55 pm

Eau2011 wrote:
nakatago wrote:
Eau2011 wrote:ha... their filtering has never stopped. The words "Norway" and "empty chair" have been filtered as well.

How long? :roll: that's the question...


I guess when the middle class feels that prices are too high and that they can't afford their cushy lifestyles anymore. Historically, popular revolts only succeed when enough of the middle class is fed up and the armed forces decide to join them. With the massive population of China, that's a lot of middle class people that need to be disgruntled.


I prefer the peaceful solution, peaceful transition...


I also wish the peaceful solution, peaceful transition.

question is :how much chance are there for peaceful solution transition?

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Re: How do you look at china and future of china

Postby JR8 » Tue, 22 Feb 2011 6:01 pm

tyianchang wrote:
JR8 wrote:His rule led to c.50 million Chinese deaths, and you're talking about 'positives'.
Breath-taking! :shock:
p.s. What next, the positives of Hitler's rule?


Can't believe it's so easy of you to slap down a heinous crime on a dead man unable to defend himself!!

JR8
[Monty Python grockle voice] Oh I know, we really shouldn't be mean to that nice Mr. Mao. I mean he might have been a genocidal dictator responsible for 50m+ deaths but he isn't here to reply. Oh I know Gladys. Edna from number six was extolling the virtues of the nazi party earlier today. Oh was she what did she say? Well, she said that they were very dapper dressers and took artistic photos of svelte looking blondes doing gymnastics. Oh yes Doris we do like a well ironed pair of dress jodhpurs, never mind the 24m people that Hitler killed. Oh sorry dear I completely forgot I wasn't meant to mention the genocide as Mr. Hitler is no longer with us in order to reply [and so on and so forth at great length.... :) ]


... At least China tried to create an equal society; the failure came from humankind.


JR8
Since you're not even Chinese (apparently), and given the rampant drum-beating, do you think it might it be fair to describe you as a Maoist?

Last edited by JR8 on Tue, 22 Feb 2011 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How do you look at china and future of china

Postby Plavt » Tue, 22 Feb 2011 6:07 pm

tyianchang wrote:Mao, he was compassionate, always against killing, and wanted democracy


After he sent so many to their deaths, yeah he must have been real compassionate.

it's impossible to be a dictator in modern China.


The whole system is dicatatorial, you must be living in on different planet. :roll:

Mao worked with his group of veterans who sacrificed their own lives and families to put China on its feet.


Did you read about the issue with steel and grain? The steel was useless so money was lost in it's production. Stored grain doesn't accrue interest it runs the risk of spoliage by rodents. These are only two issues, today there are no end of human rights issues, lax safety standards, numerous accidents in mines along with corrupt officials not to mention the country remains 80% peasantry, hardly on its feet is it?


Like everything else, there were good and bad in the party but Mao gets the blame i.e. unless one researched for the truth.


Then why don't you instead of simply retorting at everything you simply don't like to read?

Mao was and is loved by many Chinese .


Image

More than anything else, the Eurovision song contest and its tactical voting, should make us rethink the outdated concept of democarcy from the ancient Greeks. Free speeech, yes but volatile changes of governments and constitutions forced on by sheer numers? What's demoracy without nationhood, trust, security and justice ?


:???: :???: :???:

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Postby paulzheng » Tue, 22 Feb 2011 6:14 pm

Eau2011 wrote:
ksl wrote: The fact that Taiwan is well infiltrated by mainland Chinese and Singapore too, is the planting of seeds for the future as I see it, there will be little one can do, though I only see conflict by those that will never be communist of which numbers we do not know. Though China will be more difficult to take if the communists are smart enough to phase in democratic rule and free speech, that will happen in my opinion and the credit will be to the communist party of uniting there brothers and sisters against the world. Interesting stuff the Taiwanese Chinese and mainland with a Brit in the middle, I know when to shut up :roll:


Taiwan und Hongkong are the only places left in China where people still have their human rights, freedom of opinion and democracy. And we do hope it will be kept so. I was in Taipeh in 2006 during the period of the movement "Million Voices against Corruption, President Chen Must Go", my impression (also by visiting Taiwanese Forum) was most Taiwanese don't want the unification if they have to live under one party dictatorship.

Hmmm....credit against the world? In my opinion they will live with the world peaceful, because then China shares the same universal values with most of the rest of the world.

ksl wrote: You have many valid points however empires are not built on small quibbles and speeches at Universities, it's done with an Iron fist like Rome did, and the Brits did. I'm sure China is well aware of its troubles, as it would have fallen along with Russia, but the mentality and focus is very different, they are adapting to evolution and change, democracy and free speech is the only way to save credibility of the communist party, so its more to do with patience building empires that suit all walks of life, in my opinion.

All the small ranters of equal rights may well have cause, but no real leverage at this time...just stamp on them or lock them up is the easiest, until it becomes a need for change.


The speech was given by a very famous Twainese writer. She has a lot of followers in China. She gave the message to the students in Peking Uni., the young generations respect her and accept her ideas. Chinese young generations haven't experienced all those movements after 1949, not like their parents. More and more of them got courage and they keen on independent thinking. Everyday many people bypass the Great Firewall to get more information... e.g. my friend in Shanghai, she's well informed and does have her own opinion.

We no longer live in the time of Roman Empire or British Empire. Iron fist does not work out anymore in the 21st century. Humans learnt from their history. Peace which currently most of us are enjoying now is still not long, only 60-65 years.


"my impression (also by visiting Taiwanese Forum) was most Taiwanese don't want the unification if they have to live under one party dictatorship. "

CCTV always told the china people in the other way, " the people both in mainland and Taiwan are both belong to one china, and they want to be unification as soon as possible"

I am not saying i am agree that Taiwan to be independant, but when i heard one of my friend from USA said he agree that Taiwan should be independant, i was shocked.

the point is not whether Taiwan should be independant or not, the question is that i never have a chance to hear the opposite opinion before.

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Re: How do you look at china and future of china

Postby tyianchang » Tue, 22 Feb 2011 6:14 pm

Plavt wrote:
tyianchang wrote:Read acrefully before you lash out. I was making a general remark that in no way implied either Bonavia or Frazer. To me, writers who have not lived through or read of the harrowing grinding lives of the mainland Chinese for 2.5 centuries


Bolth Bonavia and Frazer were posted to China for several years! Since individuals don't live 2.5 centuries they can only assess using history and whatever the present situation is. I would have hoped somebody who claims to be a teacher would have realized that before as usual spouting a lengthy diatribe which I and I suspect many others rarely read much of. :roll:


I 'll just turn my back to this usual inability to hold a civil discussion to the usual accusations. Quick impressions out of context? That's with no offence to the writers themselves. They can either issue from missionaries who have bonded with China or read widely.
Another personal attack? I don't claim anything. Some of the best teachers get reviled in the UK- that's just street culture for you - stereotypes, bullies and one liners.
And you're calling for democary???lol
tyianchang


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