How do you look at china and future of china

[Expat_guy]

There were engineered droughts, due to Mao's Great Leap Forward.
In 1950's private farming was abolished and forced agricultural collectivization was enforced, those engaged in private framing were prosecuted and lot of them were put to death. GLF ended in catastroph resulting in about 30-35 million deaths.

[sundaymorningstaple]

[nakatago]

Could you imagine chairman Mao doing something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ87AGKJhew

"Oh hey. Sorry about that. My bad. I just wanted our country to jumpstart to greatness; I didn't mean for millions to die due to famine while all we got to show for it is sub-standard metal. So, why don't we just put this all behind us and try again?"

[Manthink]

There were engineered droughts, due to Mao's Great Leap Forward.
In 1950's private farming was abolished and forced agricultural collectivization was enforced, those engaged in private framing were prosecuted and lot of them were put to death. GLF ended in catastroph resulting in about 30-35 million deaths.

Yes GLF was a disaster - at a cost of 70 million lives based on largest estimate.

Drough and flooding was the direct killer. But an engineered (aka man-made) natural calamity ? Did Mao deliberately introduce the disastrous policy just to killed off millions of Chinese ? IMO, that's stretching a little.

From being the "sick man of Asia" to so-called "US's banker" within half a century, one cannot imagine the change can be so rapid.

But those 50 years ( counting from 1958 when GLF started), that period is only a blink of China's history and they have long memories. And with these memories, I wouldn't be surrprised China still approach the world with caution and even trepidation.

You can witness this fear-factor in how authorities respond to internet-instigated "Jasmine-revolution".

Oddly, ordinary Chinese seems to be alittle bewildeed too and there are jokes amongst netizens about this online 'Jasmine Revolution" in having only 2 participants: the Chinese security and Western journalists

[Vaucluse]

But those 50 years ( counting from 1958 when GLF started), that period is only a blink of China's history and they have long memories. And with these memories, I wouldn't be surrprised China still approach the world with caution and even trepidation.

China's memory? China is a country, not a person. This is as ludicrous as when apologists use the USA's young age as an excuse or reasoning.

Politicians are out for themselves and don't care about ten years from now, let alone 100 years. Of course China is different as the same goons will still be in power in ten years time.

GLF was initiated by Mao, do you not agree?

[JR8]

Apologists for a murderous and generally barbaric rule must find it quite secure to hide behind empty rhetoric . . . and SMS has a new girl/boyfriend. She lub him lon tine

Bwahahaha!

[Manthink]

China's memory? China is a country, not a person. This is as ludicrous as when apologists use the USA's young age as an excuse or reasoning.

Interesting you touch on the age-thingy.
Some argue that China does not have the bragging right in lecturing USA based on her longevity, you are correct.
geee..remains me about the "newbie" welcome that I had been getting so far.

Fact is, I hadn't read nor heard about China pulling this stunt in the history book. I would love to hear from those who had.
This lead me to another history-thing:

In "China memory", I meant as a civilization rather as a country.
In fact, there a school of thought that China isn't a country at all and when such civilization has continues unbroken history, memory does run deep and this has an effect the China's policies. One cannot under-state the immence influence this has on past feudal China to today's socialist system.

Politicians are out for themselves and don't care about ten years from now, let alone 100 years. Of course China is different as the same goons will still be in power in ten years time.

Politicians exist in many forms. We have the idealist, fanatics, opportunists etc etc...but "Goon"? Care to explain more?

GLF was initiated by Mao, do you not agree?

Do I need to answer that?

[JR8]

Fact is, I hadn't read nor heard about China pulling this stunt in the history book. I would love to hear from those who had.

try this...
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 81630.html

[Eau2011]

At one stage in Beijing, my daughter nearly died of dengue fever or malaria - she was saved by the Working People's uni doctor for about two GBP for 6 sessions.

The fact it cost £12 seems more important than your daughter almost dying.

Er, Dengue, Malaria, er a bit of a difference!

It is nothing short of stunning that you apparently do not know what she had contracted that almost killed her!

JR8, it's not the first time you saw her comments like this. Read the previous post which still can send shiver down spine. For me, this is just too cold-blooded, lives are nothing in her eyes.

That's a good question. Obviously, I can't stop my children from what they want to do. I'd hope nothing violent would happen but if they're at the stage for a struggle of power with the authorities, then they've taken everything in their own stride. I might be for or against but I would'nt blame anyone for the death of my children who took up the challenge to fight for changes. As a reference point for the Tainanmen protest, the government wanted a discussion but the student leaders refused to budge. I wouldn't follow leaders of any kind if I wanted things changed because I need to chnge myself first.

[Manthink]

Fact is, I hadn't read nor heard about China pulling this stunt in the history book. I would love to hear from those who had.

try this...
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 81630.html

Thank you for the pointer. Finally I see a glint of civilized exchanges.

According to Mr Dikötter, his access to the Chinese official archives (which was open only couple years ago.) he revealed this:

In all, the records I studied suggest that the GLF was responsible for at least 45 million deaths....Between 2 and 3 million of these victims were tortured to death or summarily executed, often for the slightest infraction. People accused of not working hard enough were hung and beaten; sometimes they were bound and thrown into ponds...

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/opini ... .html?_r=1

[tyianchang]

China's memory? China is a country, not a person. This is as ludicrous as when apologists use the USA's young age as an excuse or reasoning.

Interesting you touch on the age-thingy.
Some argue that China does not have the bragging right in lecturing USA based on her longevity, you are correct.
geee..remains me about the "newbie" welcome that I had been getting so far.

Fact is, I hadn't read nor heard about China pulling this stunt in the history book. I would love to hear from those who had.
This lead me to another history-thing:

In "China memory", I meant as a civilization rather as a country.
In fact, there a school of thought that China isn't a country at all and when such civilization has continues unbroken history, memory does run deep and this has an effect the China's policies. One cannot under-state the immence influence this has on past feudal China to today's socialist system.

Politicians are out for themselves and don't care about ten years from now, let alone 100 years. Of course China is different as the same goons will still be in power in ten years time.

Politicians exist in many forms. We have the idealist, fanatics, opportunists etc etc...but "Goon"? Care to explain more?

GLF was initiated by Mao, do you not agree?

Do I need to answer that?

Hi Manthink. Sorry, noone welcomes you. I don't read a lot of threads so I wouldn't know but you're most WELCOMEd. Usually, SMS does a bril job but perhaps he's avoiding the teasers.
It's the heat China's generating in this thread and well, it's a political minefield really, for anyone who assumes they know it all.
There's a restaurant in Kensington 'Memories of China' that's evocative of all things dating back to agelessness and longevity. But memories are so immaterial, if it's all that's left of our history, sighs.
The current argument and nit pickings on historical events have flowed out of the land with the gushing Yangtse; it's relevance for me is that Mao did not kill all those millions and natural disasters were conveniently used to blacken his character. There might be a case that some of the actions e.g. killing of sparrows that ate up the grains might create some ecological imbalance but the results cannot be exaggeratted.
Mao initiated the GLP - it had its pos and negs but many China hands now reevaluate that movement has spearheaded the current economic leap forward - the seeds were sown. Miracles don't happen.
Don't get too het up with these pros and cons - the search for China led to the founding of America. Besides, you need to find a real China hand to really appreciate this discussion - it's unpleasant, to say the least, when locked in horns, esp when the same old teasers make it all so personal.
Have a nice day.

[Eau2011]

I can understand. Not long ago, I toured Europe with 28 relations for their long European coach holiday. I met someone working in a church who told me that she had to work with the German police to identify all Chinese people in that part of Germany. I remember telling her that that sounded racist but she argued that it's for national good as there might be too many immigrants to the country. She's S'prean now German, married to a German. But sh'e doing that for the German govt and has nothing to do with China. This is all sounding very weird.

If she told you this, it means she is doing work for German government, and it's not secret. Not like those who work as business men, but secretly they are staffs of national security.

Sorry, I cannot comprehend, why should she have something to do with China? It sounds weird. She was a Singaporean, now a German, she was never a Chinese citizen, right?


Finally, if you read what I've discussed so far, I'm not bothered with the economic miracle of China today, and I don't like those looking up to super power status. Power corrupts.
I was mainly interested in Chinese philosophy and the plight of China from the 18 century to the day Mao said, China has stood up. But from then on, it's full of fascinating events in continuity. From the Chinese I'd met, I'd recognised them to be really beautiful people who always come clean in their words and actions. They're gentle, kindly and humourous, apart from being amazingly brilliant, quick witted and hard-wroking. This is what China means to me. I hope all this materialism today won't change their nature.

Unfortunately, materialism is now the whole spirit of contempory China, the old Chiense philosophy is disappearing, like many traditions....

[Eau2011]

Apologists for a murderous and generally barbaric rule must find it quite secure to hide behind empty rhetoric . . . and SMS has a new girl/boyfriend. She lub him lon tine

[JR8]

At one stage in Beijing, my daughter nearly died of dengue fever or malaria - she was saved by the Working People's uni doctor for about two GBP for 6 sessions.

The fact it cost £12 seems more important than your daughter almost dying.

Er, Dengue, Malaria, er a bit of a difference!

It is nothing short of stunning that you apparently do not know what she had contracted that almost killed her!

JR8, it's not the first time you saw her comments like this. Read the previous post which still can send shiver down spine. For me, this is just too cold-blooded, lives are nothing in her eyes.

That's a good question. Obviously, I can't stop my children from what they want to do. I'd hope nothing violent would happen but if they're at the stage for a struggle of power with the authorities, then they've taken everything in their own stride. I might be for or against but I would'nt blame anyone for the death of my children who took up the challenge to fight for changes. As a reference point for the Tainanmen protest, the government wanted a discussion but the student leaders refused to budge. I wouldn't follow leaders of any kind if I wanted things changed because I need to chnge myself first.

A useful reminder there (how quickly one can forget).

So she wouldn't blame a government for killing her children if they protested against it, and doesn't know whether it was dengue or malaria that almost killed her daughter... but hey ho what ever it was it only cost £12 to treat, 'up the workers!' and so on.

Cue a lecture in 94 parts as to why children should participate in filial piety. Frankly funding assisted suicide would seem more appropriate with parents like that

(Perhaps her new bestest special friend (for this week at least, as she buttefry) will be along soon to rally to her defence )


p.s. Sorry Nak, bite me!

[Vaucluse]

Malaria . . . dengue . . . herpes . . .

Agreeing with her government murdering her children . . .


He/she is just full of lies and half-truths, exactly the kind of nonsense you get from propagandists.

As for the Singaporean in Germany keeping tabs on Mainlanders masquerading as tourists.

Do you know how many 'tourists' simply disappear when travelling and never return to China? Very, very many decide not to return to the Worker's and Proletariat's Paradise.

I wonder why . . .

.