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How do you look at china and future of china

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paulzheng
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Postby paulzheng » Wed, 23 Feb 2011 1:05 pm

ScoobyDoes wrote:
Eau2011 wrote:I cried for a man whose name is Feng Zhenghu (Chinese economist and scholar), as he was refused to enter China 7 times (!) even he holds a CHinese passport. He was stuck in the Narita airport arrival hall without food store and washing facility. He slept on a chair for 92 days. Passengers bought him food. Strangers helped him, a Narita Blockade was built by people from all over the world after they got to know this, they supplied him food (have you heard Berlin Blockade?). He has a PR for Japan (studied in Japan years ago), this time he came to Japan to visit his son, then he could not go back home anymore, 7 times he tried to go back to China, even after he arrived in Shanghai by plane, they did not let him enter!!! The ANA (JAL?) was told not to sell him flight ticket! One time he was forced by policemen to get off the plan, of cause with violence! After 7 times try, he refused to enter Japan and he stayed in the Narita airport arrival hall because that's his RIGHT to go back home!!

That's the real version of "Terminal" by Tom Hanks.



The Terminal was released in 2004.

There is no way your Chinese friend was the inspiration for the film, where it is accredited to be loosly based on the real life experience of one Mehran Karimi Nasseri in Paris, not the US.

It is more likely that the film was his inspiration and from it knew people would be willing to help and that his story would be publicised.


Eau,

I think with more and more and people to care about those suffering like Feng ZhengFu, then finally the situation in china will be changed.

currently, most people just care about their own life, if those who sufferting don't have any relationship with they, they will no put too much attention.

Some time, even just pay some attention is a great support and encourage for those stick in struggling people.

for example, i admire Ai Weiwei very much. He rufuse to fogget those childer who were died in 2008 512 earthquake. For whole one years, 365 days, he public the chidren name, school, age in his twitter to memorize them at the first second of each day.


below is the link for introduction of Ai Weiwei
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ai_Weiwei

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Re: How do you look at china and future of china

Postby paulzheng » Wed, 23 Feb 2011 1:33 pm

Eau2011 wrote:
tyianchang wrote:
Eau2011 wrote:
tyianchang wrote: Regarding Tiananmen - it's similar to the present protest in Bahrain in the sense that the students began to arm themselves and initiated the horrid crackdown by throwing fire at the passing army tanks - on BBC records. They were not that peaceful as we'd like to think.

Then, when democracy was much talked about, most Chinese say 'no two Chinese ever think alike' and in China, many Chinese make their own laws anyway - so I gather, it'll take people to learn to respect their laws and the constitution before democracy can offer a peaceful alternative.


I've read many books and seen enough videos about it, I have heard real stories from friends who have experienced it. The students were not prepared for the army at all. What they've heard is always "PLA is our own army", they were told to love their army from the childhood. Then saw the tanks coming...I can really imagine how they felt. Military with tanks killing his own people is crime, no doubt. Till now CCP still did not give any statement about it and still censored it in the internet and media.

How can you expect this nation (government/party) to take responsibilty for the world if they even don't take responsibility for its own people?

People learn to respect law and the constitution?? Just ask CCP cadres to learn first! God knows how many things they did are against laws and constitution. The problem is not Hu or Wen, is those cadres in the provinces, in the cities and all over China. Hu or Wen can do nothing to them, too far from their control.


We watched and discussed the whole Tiananmen demo intensely in the UK - in schools (!- the longest peaceful demo in history that went on for months),among China hands and reporters, both Chinese and foreign and with Chinese students and the embassy. This might surprise you, but there were Iranians, Iraqis involved in supporting the students or the government.
The BBC showed when trouble first erupted with students throwing fire grenades on a tank , and setting buses with soldiers inside, on fire. That's when the protest bacame a struggle for power .Then the army cracked down - personally, I abhor the killings but equally, I'm not fooled by the student leaders who were arrogant and demanded but refused to listen or accept. They were talking to veterans who had sacrificed not only their lives but that of their families in the war with the Japanese and the nationalists.
Yes, I agree some of the cadres are corrupted and China is far from perfect as there're cases in the abuse of power. But which country is perfect - easier for smaller countries like SG and Switzerland.
China is so big, as you said, it's not the problem with Wen or HU - they try their best, but it's true what I said about the arrogance in some Chinese that they're a law unto themselves; that's why some people even question if democracy is the better solution at all.
Can we get away from the cruel reality that some innocent people have to suffer at the expense of real evil e.g. at the other extreme of personal liberty and humanitarian concerns as in the UK, people get 10 years for manslaughter when they actually murdered or extremists can sue the government for a couple of millions (at a time when the country has a national debt of running into trillions?).


I know a few students were really opportunists. But in any situation any government NEVER NEVER can use armed forces against their people!! For me, there was no excuse for their crime.

No country is perfect, but China is far far far from perfect! Yes in Economy they did it very well, but in human rights it was even much worse than the years before 1989. There was even much more freedom of opinion before 1989. And economic development, human rights and freedom can certainly coexist, but that did not happen in China.

You might have read the speech of Long Yingtai in the Peking University, I share the same opinion. If becoming a super power, means only a strong military, strong economy, arrogant foreign policy, but in the country people don't enjoy human rights and freedom, abroad not taking social responsibility for the international society, that would be a disaster for the mankind if this country becomes a super power.

Yes we all know no country guarantees absolute freedom, but sadly in China there is even no relative freedom. Not even mention human rights...

Some of the cadres are corrupt? Have you heard the saying of CCP "if we don't start anti-corruption our country will dissolve, but we start anti-corruption, our party will dissolve", just a glimpse for you to see how corrupt it is.

As I said before, Wen has mentioned the political reform in the CNN interview, but even this part is censored in Chinese media. Ironic, huh?? Wen and Hu got no power actually. Still the old guys have the last words. We only can hope the next generation would be able to start the political reform after the successful economic reform.

I do hope China will take this step, it takes time and it will be hard, but it has to happen. It's the only way for a peaceful transition cause I really don't want to see blood and civil war and mess like in Egypt and other countries.


"I know a few students were really opportunists. But in any situation any government NEVER NEVER can use armed forces against their people!! For me, there was no excuse for their crime."

good statement, i am strongly support that !

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Postby Eau2011 » Wed, 23 Feb 2011 2:23 pm

ScoobyDoes wrote:The Terminal was released in 2004.

There is no way your Chinese friend was the inspiration for the film, where it is accredited to be loosly based on the real life experience of one Mehran Karimi Nasseri in Paris, not the US.

It is more likely that the film was his inspiration and from it knew people would be willing to help and that his story would be publicised.


Sigh....
I'm not talking about the film was inspired by the story of Mr. Feng. I mean it's a version of "the Terminal" in real life, if I did not say it clearly.

I have seen the film long time ago, BTW, almost every Tom Hanks films. :P

Mr. Feng never knew about that film till one of those passengers told him about this movie.

BTW, we don't know each other, so we are not friends. And I'm only the one of thousands of strangers who supported him.

His goal was simple: go back home! He's got no another choice if not staying at Narita. Entering Japan can grant him a normal life (he's a PR), but he still choose to suffer at the airport because he wanted to be back home, and he made it.

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Postby Eau2011 » Wed, 23 Feb 2011 2:37 pm

paulzheng wrote:
Some time, even just pay some attention is a great support and encourage for those stick in struggling people.

for example, i admire Ai Weiwei very much. He rufuse to fogget those childer who were died in 2008 512 earthquake. For whole one years, 365 days, he public the chidren name, school, age in his twitter to memorize them at the first second of each day.


below is the link for introduction of Ai Weiwei
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ai_Weiwei


Yes that's what I did, paying attention and giving support if needed. So do my friends.

Ai Weiwei is very famous in Germany, he has his art exhibitions in D very often. He's a great artist, I like his works, he's a great person with civil courage as well.

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Re: How do you look at china and future of china

Postby Eau2011 » Wed, 23 Feb 2011 2:45 pm

paulzheng wrote:
Eau2011 wrote: I know a few students were really opportunists. But in any situation any government NEVER NEVER can use armed forces against their people!! For me, there was no excuse for their crime.

good statement, i am strongly support that !


JR8 wrote:
tyianchang wrote:That's a good question. Obviously, I can't stop my children from what they want to do. I'd hope nothing violent would happen but if they're at the stage for a struggle of power with the authorities, then they've taken everything in their own stride. I might be for or against but I would'nt blame anyone for the death of my children who took up the challenge to fight for changes.


Just when you thought it couldn't plumb lower depths...

All you need to know. The will of any government would come before the lives of her own children.

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Postby JayCee » Wed, 23 Feb 2011 3:19 pm

Anne, question for you - if you'd lived in China a decade ago and had a second child, would you allow the government to take it away from you and put it in an orphanage ready to die without a word of dissent? Or would you have happily gone and had an abortion at 7 months pregnant instead?

I think I already know the answer considering you'd be happy for your children to die in an incident similar to Tiananmen, but I'm just curious

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Postby paulzheng » Wed, 23 Feb 2011 3:27 pm

Eau2011 wrote:
paulzheng wrote:
Some time, even just pay some attention is a great support and encourage for those stick in struggling people.

for example, i admire Ai Weiwei very much. He rufuse to fogget those childer who were died in 2008 512 earthquake. For whole one years, 365 days, he public the chidren name, school, age in his twitter to memorize them at the first second of each day.


below is the link for introduction of Ai Weiwei
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ai_Weiwei


Yes that's what I did, paying attention and giving support if needed. So do my friends.

Ai Weiwei is very famous in Germany, he has his art exhibitions in D very often. He's a great artist, I like his works, he's a great person with civil courage as well.


I am so happy to know that Ai Weiwei is famous in Germany. I believe is even in china a lot of people don't even heard his name since government dislike Ai Weiwei.

Last time, Ai Weiwei want to invite people for free "Crab Meal", more than 1000 people from all over the country plan to join his "He Xie Da Yan", just 24 hours before the meal, Ai Weiwei was limited to his studio in Beijing by authourities!

How shameful it is that government using such kind of method.

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Postby paulzheng » Wed, 23 Feb 2011 3:29 pm

Eau2011 wrote:
ScoobyDoes wrote:The Terminal was released in 2004.

There is no way your Chinese friend was the inspiration for the film, where it is accredited to be loosly based on the real life experience of one Mehran Karimi Nasseri in Paris, not the US.

It is more likely that the film was his inspiration and from it knew people would be willing to help and that his story would be publicised.


Sigh....
I'm not talking about the film was inspired by the story of Mr. Feng. I mean it's a version of "the Terminal" in real life, if I did not say it clearly.

I have seen the film long time ago, BTW, almost every Tom Hanks films. :P

Mr. Feng never knew about that film till one of those passengers told him about this movie.

BTW, we don't know each other, so we are not friends. And I'm only the one of thousands of strangers who supported him.

His goal was simple: go back home! He's got no another choice if not staying at Narita. Entering Japan can grant him a normal life (he's a PR), but he still choose to suffer at the airport because he wanted to be back home, and he made it.


"I have seen the film long time ago, BTW, almost every Tom Hanks films. :P"

seems you like Tom Hanks very much, i am very very like his movie "Forrest Gump".

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Postby paulzheng » Wed, 23 Feb 2011 3:36 pm

Eau2011 wrote:
tyianchang wrote: Not my problem, I assure you but more those who try to indoctrinate me !
I don't assume you know everything either though you might have known a lot more than me. I don't think you speak like a proper Chinese anyway, and I'm not fooled by cyber camouflages. I've met many mainland Chinese people to know the different types. You shold respect that I'm entitled to my beliefs.

Still, I'm not easily persuaded. The example you gave - I don't know the implications so no comment but he was eventually allowed in. The fact that he was under house arrest might suggest there's suspicion somewhere and people like you who have the contacts should support him if he's innocent. But I'm inclined to think you're German rather than Chinese.

If you only belive in yourself, nobody can help you.
I have my parents, my relatives and my friends in China. Even in those 9 years where I lived in Germany, I went to China 3 to 5 times per year. My next trip would be in one month. I talk to my parents or friends in Shanghai on phone every week and read Chinese articles everyday, I talk and write not only simplified Chinese, but also traditional Chinese. I read Chinese books not only from mainland China, but also from Taiwan, Hongkong, Singapore. You think I'm a German? lol

I have got to know the story of Mr. Feng via Twitter, I felt so sorry for him, he's almost my mum's age. I helped him like many others and wished that he could be back home very soon. My Japanese colleague was also happy to bring food and some vitamines for him after knowing his story. My German colleagues all sigend on the card. You were born and grew up in a democratic country. You enjoy your rights. Are Chinese people not humans, don't they deserve their rights?




Just because I'm a native-born Chinese, I hope the best for Chinese people, those are my family, my friends, my relatives. Personally, except the destiny of our family in the culture revolution, My family and I myself had/have normal life in China, quite like yours and others, my friends too, but does it mean that we can shut our eyes, not seeing those ugly truth and reality and sing for the party all the time? We have our eyes, brains and mouths (JR, do I ever learn? :wink: ), not there only for decoration purpose.


"I have got to know the story of Mr. Feng via Twitter"

Can i know your Twitter ID so that i can follow you on twitter?

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 23 Feb 2011 3:55 pm

paulzheng wrote:
Eau2011 wrote:
paulzheng wrote:
Some time, even just pay some attention is a great support and encourage for those stick in struggling people.

for example, i admire Ai Weiwei very much. He rufuse to fogget those childer who were died in 2008 512 earthquake. For whole one years, 365 days, he public the chidren name, school, age in his twitter to memorize them at the first second of each day.


below is the link for introduction of Ai Weiwei
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ai_Weiwei


Yes that's what I did, paying attention and giving support if needed. So do my friends.

Ai Weiwei is very famous in Germany, he has his art exhibitions in D very often. He's a great artist, I like his works, he's a great person with civil courage as well.


I am so happy to know that Ai Weiwei is famous in Germany. I believe is even in china a lot of people don't even heard his name since government dislike Ai Weiwei.

Last time, Ai Weiwei want to invite people for free "Crab Meal", more than 1000 people from all over the country plan to join his "He Xie Da Yan", just 24 hours before the meal, Ai Weiwei was limited to his studio in Beijing by authourities!

How shameful it is that government using such kind of method.


Al Weiwei is also well known in the UK. He recently had an art installation called 'Sunflower seeds' in the turbine hall of the Tate Modern Gallery. That vast room is the most prestigious space for contemporary art in the country.

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Postby Eau2011 » Wed, 23 Feb 2011 4:10 pm

JR8 wrote: Al Weiwei is also well known in the UK. He recently had an art installation called 'Sunflower seeds' in the turbine hall of the Tate Modern Gallery. That vast room is the most prestigious space for contemporary art in the country.


Yeah, I know that Sunflower seeds, impressive! Was in D before.

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Postby Eau2011 » Wed, 23 Feb 2011 4:21 pm

paulzheng wrote:"I have got to know the story of Mr. Feng via Twitter"

Can i know your Twitter ID so that i can follow you on twitter?


The story happend in 2009. But if you are interested in, you can follow him "fzhenghu".

I follow a few "thinkers" (in my opinion), they are journalists or writers,
e.g. chang_ping, lianyue.

But as you know twitter is blocked in China.

Of cause you can also follow Ai Weiwei. :)

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 23 Feb 2011 4:29 pm

Eau2011 wrote:
JR8 wrote: Al Weiwei is also well known in the UK. He recently had an art installation called 'Sunflower seeds' in the turbine hall of the Tate Modern Gallery. That vast room is the most prestigious space for contemporary art in the country.


Yeah, I know that Sunflower seeds, impressive! Was in D before.


Oh really, I did not know that...

Here is an article on the London exhibition together with photos...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... s-art.html

Installations in that space are on a ... vast scale. It is hard not to be wowed.

Oh, and I read just last week that Weiwei had sold (from memory) 100,000 of the seeds for £349k. Which given he made 100m of them, means he is a very wealthy man indeed! :)

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 23 Feb 2011 4:47 pm

nakatago wrote:...just dropping by to keep the 50 Cent Army from astroturfing this thread.
"Tiananmen Square"
"Jasmine Revolution"
There. This thread is now blocked in PRC. You may now resume discussions.


Thing is Nak, not all the 50 Cent Army are based in PRC are they? Some of them are scattered far and wide.

Is it coincidence that this topic has been astro'd by one notable pro-communist government zealot?

JR8
(formerley accused of being an 'anti-Chinese agent', by said zealot. In retrospect an interesting choice of words.)

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Postby tyianchang » Wed, 23 Feb 2011 5:00 pm

JayCee wrote:Anne, question for you - if you'd lived in China a decade ago and had a second child, would you allow the government to take it away from you and put it in an orphanage ready to die without a word of dissent? Or would you have happily gone and had an abortion at 7 months pregnant instead?

I think I already know the answer considering you'd be happy for your children to die in an incident similar to Tiananmen, but I'm just curious


The One child policy is, at best an altuistic act to prevent more deprivations in China and abroad. I could see when I was in China how overpopulated the cities were; even Wu Tai Shan was full of hordes of crowds - at rush hours on the hight street. At worst, there're forced abortions and I've heard of ghastly cases. There're orphanages but you'd be distorting the fact when you said the children are left to die. You really can't make the CCP to sound as if they're all that evil. Propaganda everywhere manipulates images and information - and politically, I never take sides but I support the common good when I'm sure it's good.

What can China do in the face of overpopulation? Look into documentaries of Manila today - ghettoes springing up everywhere, some families living for 3 generations of 16 people in one small room of 6 by 6 with a raised upstairs room they can only crawl about which again is divided into two rooms. I'd hate to see anyone having to live in such conditions and I would expect the goverment to deal with this. Besides, is it fair to bring a poor child into this world without the abiity to feed, educate and give them the basic needs?

The One child policy was fair enough - it was imposed on Han Chinese only and not the other ethnic minorities. That showed a pattern of altruism for truth testing, to me. However, the poilicy's amended to a 2 child nowadays, I heard. India doesn't have the one child policy and its population growth is overtaking that of China. I'd travelled India extensively for over a year - and it's not fair to put large families in slums and have children begging on the streets.

I admire China as a country that plans ahead and takes stock of what's going on. No one, not even me, would want the one child policy. But the alternative is a vicious cycle of poverty, unwanted children and starvation. In that sense, I'd rather have a child and be able to give them a decent life. The one child policy went through reforms, from making abortions (which I don't gree with), to the imposition of fines which is far preferable if they have the means to pay. Today, it's becoming a two child policy.

China is a country that had greatly suffered from famine and starvation throughout the centuries. The people who plan the one child policy live in that context and are doing something to prevent their people and country from further catastrophes. I've heard of cases where the law is flaunted by ingenious human means; but if a country's law is to be respected, it's to be followed. That or lawlessness. To me, what's another child for my own desire when the country is planning to avoid catastrophic disasters? Cannot one love the children of others as one's own? Isn't communism about communal life - but of course, privacy is crucial to one's own sanity as well. As far as I can see, the CCP is ensuring the best planning for their people though they're hampered by the bad eggs and corruption, which in Chinese culture, can be endemic.

You would know only parents can feel that profoundly for their children; but equally so, no good parents can go against the will of their own children. Do you want to prevent your children going to Afghanistan today-I'm pacificist and I'll try to persuade them against war, but equally I can't force them to respect my wishes. As for premature deaths, I wouldn't conjecture that and wouldn't invite such karmic consequences. I worked out that we might have about 50% control of our lives - 50% nurture and 50% nature.

What you say, that I'd be happy for my children to die in an incident like Tiananmen is completely distorted. I believe in free will and respecting the free will of others. We don't force people to change their minds in my family. We're well aware of control freaks.

You should have asked shouldn't I join my children in an armed uprising - and my asnwer is NO. I'm apolitical in that sense but would I join the resistence groups in fighting against the nazis or the Japanese in China , having witnessed first hand the uncalled for violence on innocent people - yes. In fact, I supported the women in Greenham Common against the deployment of nuclear power but that is way out of control today.

The bottom line is, most of us want a peaceful world where we and our children can live happy and purposeful lives but we can't control our individual destiny. When we have parents who plan for us, government that plan for the country, we feel that we know where we're going. When there're natural catastrophes the PLA is mobilized to help out, when ther're floods etc, the human resources are available to help out.

China's a country with immense needs at all levels.
Last edited by tyianchang on Wed, 23 Feb 2011 5:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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