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Postby Eau2011 » Fri, 18 Feb 2011 1:55 pm

JR8 wrote: Do you know the MNC will try to take advantage of those societies if law is incomplete there or there is law but it's not strictly followed? I know many of these. Without law restriction, will they really talk about ethic??
Is it just MNCs or all companies? In fact is it all companies, or individual/sole traders as well? In fact in your eyes are people parasites on society? Do these parasites need to elect other parasite-controllers in order to control their parasitical tendencies?


Talking about MNC is because they act differently in different countries.

I just saw the same companies which grant all the rights to their German employees but not to the employees in other countries where no law asks them to do so. They take the advantages. You must also know Adidas has used child labor indirectly in Indonesia before... Will they dare to do that in Germany or not to control their subcontractors?? That's the reality, believe it or not.

Off topic: if they do have moral high ground, why do they still do business with those countries in which the human rights are much violated? They are quite flexible, huh?

When talking about the sanction, their own interest has always the highest priority.

Even the UN world food programme, supported by the nations and companies which (ironically) have the right to tell UN where to allocate the food, did not give enough food to countries like Bangladesh because those coutries are strategically not important for them, no oil and resources, no big consumer market etc. It's always a give-and-take...

Or do you think they have rights to judge who need the food more and who less?

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 18 Feb 2011 6:46 pm

Eau2011 wrote:Well, we have different experiences in different supermarkets. :) and now, go to those more environmental friendly stores. \:D/

This is Berlin and in many ways it is like being in the former Soviet Union. The range of groceries available here is appalling [OzChick made the same observation on arriving but at least she is in a ‘western’ city here]. I pine for the likes of Cold Storage! Environmentally friendly stores.... you’re kidding


I can't agree on you. I just can say people or country who don't support or are against it are either (also) considering their own interest or blind(?) :lol:

You have been convinced of this by politicians have you? (Isn’t Al Gore’s new $9m California vast beach-side house nice? ). The thing is Eau I think it depends on ones age. Every generation seems to need something to beat themselves up about. But when the truth comes out, the issue moves on to the next thing. When you have been through a few cycles of this you start to see the pattern and get cynical. Are you old enough to remember c. ‘73-75 being scared witless by the impending ice-age that was going to kill us all?
http://denisdutton.com/cooling_world.htm
http://neoconexpress.blogspot.com/2007/ ... e-in.html# [I post this for the story line, not the site or comment that just happened to come up in the Google search]
I remember sitting in school as a youngster and honestly thinking to myself, ‘What is the point in doing these lessons, when if we’re not nuked by the Russians we’re all going to freeze to death?’. Apparently one of the leading scientists back then of the global-cooling ‘terror’ is now Obamas global warming advisor. Does that surprise you?



Always depends on with what you compare. I've travelled all continents, have seen extremly bad things. I'm definetly not the one who is so fragile. :lol: The difference is always the gap between what you get and what you expect. If I live now in Indian, I'll not talk about plastic bags, but I live in Singapore now.

Yep, fair enough, but I don't think it is as 'perfect and sophisticated' as your two weeks here has revealed.

What I heard and read blah blah is about how organized the Sin society is, I thought it must be so perfect. But just an example, I'm probably the only driver to wait and let the pedestrians cross the streets... The old people have to work nonstop in the airport and food courts, heard they don't have pension or just too less to survive....

And this is why your S$3.50 food-court meal would cost maybe é12-15 in Germany

Well, not in the extrem case of flushing a toilet, but more or less. Imagine what would happen without so many laws and provisions. You should know in the world the most laws and provisions are written in German. Why?

Germans like having things to obey lol? Anyway, not sure about your suggestion that most global law is written in German...

Talking about MNC is because they act differently in different countries.
I just saw the same companies which grant all the rights to their German employees but not to the employees in other countries where no law asks them to do so. They take the advantages. You must also know Adidas has used child labor indirectly in Indonesia before... Will they dare to do that in Germany or not to control their subcontractors?? That's the reality, believe it or not.


You cannot expect say a British company to open an office in say Singapore, and give everybody the same rights as if they were in Britain. Can you? It is not ‘taking advantage’, it is taking opportunity. If there is no opportunity, there would be no incentive for MNCs to open branches abroad, and so all those locals who choose to work for them would be without that option of employment.

Ah but hang on, I am reminded that I am discussing this with a German :) And here in Germany Walmart was closed down by the courts on the basis - yes get ready for this - that it's pricing policy would be anti-competitive versus other local chains. Yes folks, competition is not just bad it is illegal! This is the same reason why a packet of antacids from an apothecary here is an eye-popping é6-7, and S$2.40-50 in Guardian/Watsons. A packet of 10 mosquito coils é6 in Bauhaus, and RM1.80 in Malaysia. Presumably Eau you ship over all your consumables from Germany, not wanting to take advantage of cheaper local pricing (and the people that produce them)? :-D
Re: child labour, companies cannot guarantee 100% control of their contractors and subs, but I do believe that most western companies do try and abide by the law.


OT: if they do have moral high ground, why do they still do business with those countries which violate human rights? e.g. China.
When talking about the sanction, their own interest has always the highest priority. They are quite flexible, huh?


Er, probably because if you vetoed doing business with every country that ‘violated human rights’ you’d have almost no one left to do business with lol? Why do think Singapore was one of the few countries investing heavily in the Burmese hotel/tourism market from the early 90’s and still to this day? Noble Singapore - who would have thought they’d do business with the tyrannical klepto-generals of a country like that eh?


Even the UN world food programme, supported by the nations and companies which (ironically) have the right to tell UN where to allocate the food, did not give enough food to countries like Bangladesh because those coutries are strategically not important for them, no oil and resources, no big consumer market etc. It's always a give-and-take...
Or do you think they have rights to judge who need the food more and who less?


Well you’ve already seen that I consider the UN to be an expensive farce, so that is a moot question.

[/quote][/quote]

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Postby Eau2011 » Fri, 18 Feb 2011 7:13 pm

:shock:

Just back from Yoga.

Thanks for writing so much and inform me in detail.

Wow, JR8, why don't you found a political party? I willl consider to join your party if you can convince me. :P

At least I saw one thing in your long post, don't trust anybody and don't believe in anything. (haha, kidding)

I'll get back to you after dinner. :wink:
Last edited by Eau2011 on Fri, 18 Feb 2011 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 18 Feb 2011 7:34 pm

no hurry... I'll still be here tomorrow :)

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Postby Eau2011 » Fri, 18 Feb 2011 11:54 pm

JR8 wrote:
Eau2011 wrote:Well, we have different experiences in different supermarkets. :) and now, go to those more environmental friendly stores. \:D/

This is Berlin and in many ways it is like being in the former Soviet Union. The range of groceries available here is appalling [OzChick made the same observation on arriving but at least she is in a ‘western’ city here]. I pine for the likes of Cold Storage! Environmentally friendly stores.... you’re kidding

Don't know much about Berlin. So it seems it did not change much after "die Wende"? But if you are willing to, you always can find those shops.

I can't agree on you. I just can say people or country who don't support or are against it are either (also) considering their own interest or blind(?) :lol:

You have been convinced of this by politicians have you? (Isn’t Al Gore’s new $9m California vast beach-side house nice? ). The thing is Eau I think it depends on ones age. Every generation seems to need something to beat themselves up about. But when the truth comes out, the issue moves on to the next thing. When you have been through a few cycles of this you start to see the pattern and get cynical. Are you old enough to remember c. ‘73-75 being scared witless by the impending ice-age that was going to kill us all?
http://denisdutton.com/cooling_world.htm
http://neoconexpress.blogspot.com/2007/ ... e-in.html# [I post this for the story line, not the site or comment that just happened to come up in the Google search]
I remember sitting in school as a youngster and honestly thinking to myself, ‘What is the point in doing these lessons, when if we’re not nuked by the Russians we’re all going to freeze to death?’. Apparently one of the leading scientists back then of the global-cooling ‘terror’ is now Obamas global warming advisor. Does that surprise you?


I was not born that time so never heard about an impending ice age. :mrgreen: Yes it would surprise me if that's the truth about Obamas global warming advisor. You are suggesting some superpower makes use of us to ensure her interests around the globe, just like iraq war, and some allied countries follow.

But still allow me to go through a few cycles, I don't want to be an old woman, filled with bitterness, doubt everything, like my old colleagues (verbitterte alte Menschen), doubts and vetoes for everything new and re-organization in the company.


Always depends on with what you compare. I've travelled all continents, have seen extremly bad things. I'm definetly not the one who is so fragile. :lol: The difference is always the gap between what you get and what you expect. If I live now in Indian, I'll not talk about plastic bags, but I live in Singapore now.

Yep, fair enough, but I don't think it is as 'perfect and sophisticated' as your two weeks here has revealed.

What I heard and read blah blah is about how organized the Sin society is, I thought it must be so perfect. But just an example, I'm probably the only driver to wait and let the pedestrians cross the streets... The old people have to work nonstop in the airport and food courts, heard they don't have pension or just too less to survive....

And this is why your S$3.50 food-court meal would cost maybe é12-15 in Germany

So I bought regional products in D than mass imported products from abroad even when they are more expensive. :wink: And I bought fair trade products. I don't mind to pay more as long as the labor gets fair paid.


Well, not in the extrem case of flushing a toilet, but more or less. Imagine what would happen without so many laws and provisions. You should know in the world the most laws and provisions are written in German. Why?

Germans like having things to obey lol? Anyway, not sure about your suggestion that most global law is written in German...
If they like or not, I don't know. But they'd do it. I don't want to talk about WWII, but it's anyway only 65 years ago...


Talking about MNC is because they act differently in different countries.
I just saw the same companies which grant all the rights to their German employees but not to the employees in other countries where no law asks them to do so. They take the advantages. You must also know Adidas has used child labor indirectly in Indonesia before... Will they dare to do that in Germany or not to control their subcontractors?? That's the reality, believe it or not.


You cannot expect say a British company to open an office in say Singapore, and give everybody the same rights as if they were in Britain. Can you? It is not ‘taking advantage’, it is taking opportunity. If there is no opportunity, there would be no incentive for MNCs to open branches abroad, and so all those locals who choose to work for them would be without that option of employment.

Ah but hang on, I am reminded that I am discussing this with a German :) And here in Germany Walmart was closed down by the courts on the basis - yes get ready for this - that it's pricing policy would be anti-competitive versus other local chains. Yes folks, competition is not just bad it is illegal! This is the same reason why a packet of antacids from an apothecary here is an eye-popping é6-7, and S$2.40-50 in Guardian/Watsons. A packet of 10 mosquito coils é6 in Bauhaus, and RM1.80 in Malaysia. Presumably Eau you ship over all your consumables from Germany, not wanting to take advantage of cheaper local pricing (and the people that produce them)? :-D
Re: child labour, companies cannot guarantee 100% control of their contractors and subs, but I do believe that most western companies do try and abide by the law.


I'm not talking about taking opportunity, but taking advantage. Check out the cases online, you can find many, e.g. workers' council. But, when the country made the law complete, and the foreign companies would follow too. But without law and regulation, they would never come to the idea to do it voluntarily.

Anyway many things here are imported from Germany and other European countries, chocolates, ice cream, chees e, I don't have to ship by myself. :P Do I take advantage? I don't think so...probably I even have to pay more import tax.

Don't try to find any excuse for those companies, they have to control and check their contractors and subs, that's exactly what they are doing now, after those scandals


OT: if they do have moral high ground, why do they still do business with those countries which violate human rights? e.g. China.
When talking about the sanction, their own interest has always the highest priority. They are quite flexible, huh?


Er, probably because if you vetoed doing business with every country that ‘violated human rights’ you’d have almost no one left to do business with lol? Why do think Singapore was one of the few countries investing heavily in the Burmese hotel/tourism market from the early 90’s and still to this day? Noble Singapore - who would have thought they’d do business with the tyrannical klepto-generals of a country like that eh?
OK. then go for business with Sudan and Iran... I have no opinion of doing or not doing business with these countries. What I don't undertand is how they set the criteria. Either do with all those countries or don't do with all, but not keep an eye shut for some, one eye open for others. You can not use two different criteria, can you?

Last edited by Eau2011 on Sat, 19 Feb 2011 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Eau2011 » Sat, 19 Feb 2011 12:41 am

JR8 wrote: Even the UN world food programme, supported by the nations and companies which (ironically) have the right to tell UN where to allocate the food, did not give enough food to countries like Bangladesh because those coutries are strategically not important for them, no oil and resources, no big consumer market etc. It's always a give-and-take...
Or do you think they have rights to judge who need the food more and who less?


Well you’ve already seen that I consider the UN to be an expensive farce, so that is a moot question.

It's not about UN, get my point, it's about those MNCs and whatsoever companies which give the instruction to UN which countries and what people should get food! They take advantage, never a deal without win-win situation.


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Postby JR8 » Sat, 19 Feb 2011 8:44 am

Eau2011 wrote:
JR8 wrote:
Eau2011 wrote:
Don't know much about Berlin. So it seems it did not change much after "die Wende"? But if you are willing to, you always can find those shops.

I have been twice too. 1989 (New Years eve!) and now. Believe me it is really 'peasant' here. There are no such shops out there Eau...



I was not born that time so never heard about an impending ice age. :mrgreen: Yes it would surprise me if that's the truth about Obamas global warming advisor. You are suggesting some superpower makes use of us to ensure her interests around the globe, just like iraq war, and some allied countries follow.

But still allow me to go through a few cycles, I don't want to be an old woman, filled with bitterness, doubt everything, like my old colleagues (verbitterte alte Menschen), doubts and vetoes for everything new and re-organization in the company.


Haha... at your own expense and ignoring history at your peril my dear friend ;) Unfortunately it is all of us who are having to pay for you to learn this lesson


So I bought regional products in D than mass imported products from abroad even when they are more expensive. :wink: And I bought fair trade products. I don't mind to pay more as long as the labor gets fair paid.

Germany is weird. Everything you buy is made in Germany. Everything. In fact I would suggest they are xenophobic about buying foreign goods. For example, in most countries Johnson & Johnson baby lotion is a recognised staple product. You see the logo and you know what you are getting. On the front it says 'Johnson's baby lotion' at the top of the lable, and at the bottom 'Johnson & Johnson', with more of the same on the back. However here it is rebranded and is simply called 'Bebe' [German for baby] with a small J&J logo on the back. p.s 'Fair'trade is evil, and robs more people than it purports to help. Another thread though!


I'm not talking about taking opportunity, but taking advantage. Check out the cases online, you can find many, e.g. workers' council. But, when the country made the law complete, and the foreign companies would follow too. But without law and regulation, they would never come to the idea to do it voluntarily.

Yeah and? Are businesses meant to be charities? Why do you think Apple Corp (2nd biggest company in America) are perhaps alone in carrying out no corporate philanthropy at all?



Anyway many things here are imported from Germany and other European countries, chocolates, ice cream, chees e, I don't have to ship by myself. :P Do I take advantage? I don't think so...probably I even have to pay more import tax.


You mean to say you buy some German products? Not quite the point though is it?


OK. then go for business with Sudan and Iran... I have no opinion of doing or not doing business with these countries. What I don't undertand is how they set the criteria. Either do with all those countries or don't do with all, but not keep an eye shut for some, one eye open for others. You can not use two different criteria, can you?

What do you mean you have no opinion on Sudan and Iran, why raise them as examples in your argument then?

You know, Eau, you sound like rather an idealist to me. I'll give you 6 months to start bitching about SGns on the MRT... that is if you ever get to use it of course :wink:


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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 19 Feb 2011 9:28 am

JR8 wrote:I'll give you 6 months to start bitching about SGns on the MRT... that is if you ever get to use it of course :wink:



Not fair! That's my line! :P

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Postby Eau2011 » Sat, 19 Feb 2011 4:43 pm

JR8 wrote:
Haha... at your own expense and ignoring history at your peril my dear friend ;) Unfortunately it is all of us who are having to pay for you to learn this lesson

What did you do when you were at my age? :P Don't tell me you were already so cynical like now. :wink:

Yeah and? Are businesses meant to be charities? Why do you think Apple Corp (2nd biggest company in America) are perhaps alone in carrying out no corporate philanthropy at all?

Never charities, but this is not the excuse for not carrying certain social responisbilities.

You mean to say you buy some German products? Not quite the point though is it?

I said here, in Singapore. Almost everything here is imported. Either from neighbouring countries or from Europe, America, Australia, you know it! If you say I take price advantage, hm....not the case. :lol: I don't have preferences, but for chocolates or cheese, I still like to buy German, Swiss, Dutch, French products because they taste much better. :wink:

You know, Eau, you sound like rather an idealist to me. I'll give you 6 months to start bitching about SGns on the MRT... that is if you ever get to use it of course :wink:
I'm not an idealist, but still like to see the positive things in life. If I ONLY doubt and complain, that doesn't really help much, of cause I question things based on the information I got. But you also can't guarantee that you, dear Mr. Alleswisser, got the entire information to judge a thing, right? :wink:

Of cause I know Singapore is Singapore, is not UK, Germany, China, USA or Moon. There will be things I don't agree on, e.g. 5Cs etc. And I also would NOT "When in Rome, do as the Romans do!", but I have to accept as it is. I'm always quite flexible. :lol:

And at the end, thank you very much for the interesting discussion, dear Mr. Alleswisser. Have a nice day! :)

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Postby Eau2011 » Sat, 19 Feb 2011 5:21 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
JR8 wrote:I'll give you 6 months to start bitching about SGns on the MRT... that is if you ever get to use it of course :wink:



Not fair! That's my line! :P


The difference between you guys and me is that I'm a native-born Chinese (though have stayed in Europe for so many years), so I know much about Chinese social attitudes (Kiasu etc.), behaviours and way of thinking etc, and Singapore is a society with 70% (?) Chinese, so the culture shock or whatsoever for me is much less than for you guys when you came to Singapore.

I swear I'll not bitch about SGns. :P But I wouldn't do the Singaporeans do even when I'm in Singapore.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 19 Feb 2011 5:32 pm

I've known a lot of ABC's, BBC's & CBC's in the almost 3 decades I've been here (I'm married to an Asian as well for 27 of those). Almost without fail, they have basically all said the same thing and all have done just what we say will happen. The fact that your are a banana, being Chinese on the outside is poor preparation for the Western guy on the inside. As James Bond said, 'never say never again'. :wink: But welcome to Singapore anyway. It's interesting to say the least, and boring as hell after 6 months.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 19 Feb 2011 5:36 pm

Oh, and I don't know what I'd do without all the plastic bags. I think their great as it keeps me from having to buy the damn things. And putting only a couple items in each bag just keeps the supply up, that all. The fact that they incinerate most, it get recycled into gray ash which is then used to build light weight paving bricks for parking lots and other bricks for buildings. So a lot of it does get recycled into useful products.

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Postby beppi » Sat, 19 Feb 2011 5:39 pm

Since household waste (mostly after being burnt at the Ulu Pandan Incineration Plant) constitutes a major portion of the material used for land reclamation (it's a "seafill" if you want), recycling comes in the way of Singapore becoming greater and is thus not encouraged.
You won't find this standpoint in official publications, though.
About 10 years ago (I didn't see more updated statistics) Singapore was the country with the highest amount of municipal waste per head worldwide. It also is the country with the highest ratio of reclaimed land (about 20%).

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 19 Feb 2011 5:48 pm

beppi wrote:Since household waste (mostly after being burnt at the Ulu Pandan Incineration Plant) constitutes a major portion of the material used for land reclamation (it's a "seafill" if you want), recycling comes in the way of Singapore becoming greater and is thus not encouraged.
You won't find this standpoint in official publications, though.
About 10 years ago (I didn't see more updated statistics) Singapore was the country with the highest amount of municipal waste per head worldwide. It also is the country with the highest ratio of reclaimed land (about 20%).


sundaymorningstaple wrote:Actually, Ulu Pandan is becoming waste as well as we type. They stopped using that plant several years ago. I work around the corner from it and they are in the process of making waste of it too. I'm hoping they will demolish the smokestack US style with explosive charges to collapse it on itself. I'd like to be there to see it. It's just the demolition expert in me coming to the fore again. (I used to hold a US Federal Blasters License). :o

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Postby Eau2011 » Sat, 19 Feb 2011 5:50 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Oh, and I don't know what I'd do without all the plastic bags. I think their great as it keeps me from having to buy the damn things. And putting only a couple items in each bag just keeps the supply up, that all. The fact that they incinerate most, it get recycled into gray ash which is then used to build light weight paving bricks for parking lots and other bricks for buildings. So a lot of it does get recycled into useful products.


We're actually doing the same, as rubbish bags.

That's interesting information. I never knew that can be used for light weight paving bricks! :o


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