Advise needed for bringing my gf to sg

[abcx]

Hi

I have been browsing thru the forum threads here but I will like to have some advice specific to my case too. Sorry for the long post but I thought its better to provide more info for clearer picture.


I have a girlfriend (PRC) and our intention is for her to come SG to work and stay for a period of time before we get married.


Actually, she came to SG last mth on a visit pass and went for a couple of interviews with some tour agencies. Everything went well, the only problem they had with her was her work permit issues and as they have already hit their foreign hire quota, they want us to sort out the permit issue ourselves before they will hire her. This is extremely frustrating because only employers can apply for permits, not the employee. I actually went down to MOM the other day and understood that she can try to apply for ep instead since she is a uni grad.


Here's Q1 - she studied in Zhejiang Ocean University (浙江海洋学院) on a 5 yr Tourism Management course. On her cert, the title header is "普通高等学校毕业证书" and the detailed description says "...专科(高职)...". At first I thought that means she is considered a uni grad with Bachelor's Degree but I saw a forum discussion that says this might be only equivalent of a diploma in SG?


Q2 - Assuming she is considered a uni grad, whats her chance of getting ep with her credentials above? I understand there are certain criteria like the uni must be recognized and her pay must be above 2.5k etc, but it seems unlikely the companies would offer her such a high starting pay. I also tried to show the MOM staff her cert but they would not verify whether it is recognized or not because they are not the ones approving.


Q3 - Alternatively, I was thinking to get a EPEC for her so she can have more time here to explore. What does it mean by "certified true copy of qualifications" will be required for online submission? Does that mean I have to get it notarized and then scan into softcopy? Also, her documents are all in Chinese, does that mean I will need to translate it first before getting it notarized? I mean Mandarin is a common language in SG right? It is not like the documents are in a very foreign language.


Q4 - As a last resort, my friend and I have some intent to setup a f&b shop selling drinks, although it might not be immediate. I was thinking to use our shop and apply sp/ep for her. How viable will this be?


Q5 - Actually her visa application was initially rejected and I had to go down to ICA and submit various documents to prove our relationship before the appeal was approved. Will her chance of getting a sp/ep/epec be less because of the prior visa rejection or because she just came like a month ago?


With the GE coming, I know there will be tighter rules on foreigners. I also would not want to do this now if I could, but my gf is already getting impatient (I just realized its already v-day after I finished previewing the post, and with both of us separated, she has been complaining even more recently). So I really would appreciate any advise. Thanks!

[Mad Scientist]

Hi
Q2 - Assuming she is considered a uni grad, whats her chance of getting ep with her credentials above? I understand there are certain criteria like the uni must be recognized and her pay must be above 2.5k etc, but it seems unlikely the companies would offer her such a high starting pay. I also tried to show the MOM staff her cert but they would not verify whether it is recognized or not because they are not the ones approving.

If MOM will tell you what is the criteria for vetting her educational cert. we will not be busy answering all these question, would we ?

Q3 - Alternatively, I was thinking to get a EPEC for her so she can have more time here to explore. What does it mean by "certified true copy of qualifications" will be required for online submission? Does that mean I have to get it notarized and then scan into softcopy? Also, her documents are all in Chinese, does that mean I will need to translate it first before getting it notarized? I mean Mandarin is a common language in SG right? It is not like the documents are in a very foreign language.

Yes and no. You need to get certify at the SG embassy in Beijing or Shanghai or a Public Notary and have it translated into English. Although Mandarin is a second language in SG, the officer vetting the docs might be Indian or Malay or someone that would not know Mandarin. English is the first Language in SG. You want to apply ? Get it done.

Q4 - As a last resort, my friend and I have some intent to setup a f&b shop selling drinks, although it might not be immediate. I was thinking to use our shop and apply sp/ep for her. How viable will this be?

There are certain criteria involve in employing EPs. If you got her to work here, she will definitely under WP in your shop. Alas she cannot get marry to you as she will be under WP. You need to get her at least an S Pass to meet the criteria to be married here


Q5 - Actually her visa application was initially rejected and I had to go down to ICA and submit various documents to prove our relationship before the appeal was approved. Will her chance of getting a sp/ep/epec be less because of the prior visa rejection or because she just came like a month ago?

ICA is for immigration, MOM is for employment. Two separate bodies with different function. Hard to tell.


With the GE coming, I know there will be tighter rules on foreigners. I also would not want to do this now if I could, but my gf is already getting impatient (I just realized its already v-day after I finished previewing the post, and with both of us separated, she has been complaining even more recently). So I really would appreciate any advise. Thanks!

Look, I hate to tell you this and it can be very painful to your ears, marriage of convenience is a ploy by many foreign brides to marry local or PR. ICA and MOM are aware of these ploy. They will make you jump over hoops to make sure you are the real deal. Nothing dodgy.
Getting impatient will not help one bit. tell her that.
If you really love her and the love reciprocates back to you, if everything fails , you may have to live with her in her own country

[abcx]

Hi Mad Scientist

Wow, Really appreciate your reply at 3am in the morning! I have never thought it was going to be easy since the day we got together, but when time comes to actually facing the hurdles, its a totally different feeling. but your ans have opened up some other questions for me, can u help clarify?

Yes and no. You need to get certify at the SG embassy in Beijing or Shanghai or a Public Notary and have it translated into English. Although Mandarin is a second language in SG, the officer vetting the docs might be Indian or Malay or someone that would not know Mandarin. English is the first Language in SG. You want to apply ? Get it done.

Im sorry I dont really know much abt these certifying stuff. Does that mean the certifying can only be done at her side and I cannot do it here in SG?
Is the certifying done by photocopying the originals and then having some legal stamp chop on the photocopies to show they are really from the original?
And the procedure is certified at embassy/public notary -> translated? because from what I see, after being certified then translated, the translated copy is then uncertified. or should the translation be certified first and then certify both
subsequently, both the originals, certified copy, translated copy are all to be scanned and then uploaded when requested? this gives me another qn as to how they can verify the scanned copies are what they are and not doctored?


There are certain criteria involve in employing EPs. If you got her to work here, she will definitely under WP in your shop. Alas she cannot get marry to you as she will be under WP. You need to get her at least an S Pass to meet the criteria to be married here

I didnt know WP cannot get married, thx for this headsup. but why did you mention she will be definitely WP in my shop? I know ep criteria is quite stringent, but cant I at least apply a sp for her in my shop?


Look, I hate to tell you this and it can be very painful to your ears, marriage of convenience is a ploy by many foreign brides to marry local or PR. ICA and MOM are aware of these ploy. They will make you jump over hoops to make sure you are the real deal. Nothing dodgy.
Getting impatient will not help one bit. tell her that.
If you really love her and the love reciprocates back to you, if everything fails , you may have to live with her in her own country


It is true there are lots of hoops and hurdles to overcome. I have had first hand experience in just trying to get her visa to come sg back in Jan. That is why I am looking for other alternatives that bros in this forum here might have experienced before and can share. As you said, I have prepared to go China in worst case, but I would really want to explore and exhaust all other avenues first.

and I will appreciate if someone in the know can advise on my first qn regarding whether someone with 专业高职 in the cert is considered diploma or uni grad.

Thanks!

[Ratpick_2000]

If you love her, get married!

Problem solved

[Mad Scientist]

Im sorry I dont really know much abt these certifying stuff. Does that mean the certifying can only be done at her side and I cannot do it here in SG?

Not sure but I think should not be an issue doing it here but it cost about $25 to $100 here to get notarise !!


Is the certifying done by photocopying the originals and then having some legal stamp chop on the photocopies to show they are really from the original?

Yes , make a copy and get it translated into English then certified by a Public Notary with the original docs to verify authencity

And the procedure is certified at embassy/public notary -> translated?
because from what I see, after being certified then translated, the translated copy is then uncertified. or should the translation be certified first and then certify both

Translated then certified. Why so GONG !!

subsequently, both the originals, certified copy, translated copy are all to be scanned and then uploaded when requested? this gives me another qn as to how they can verify the scanned copies are what they are and not doctored?

When you collected the pass they would want to see the original and the certified copies. MOM need to vet the docs



I didnt know WP cannot get married, thx for this headsup. but why did you mention she will be definitely WP in my shop? I know ep criteria is quite stringent, but cant I at least apply a sp for her in my shop?

SP holder you need to pay her if I am not wrong min. $1800.00. There is a quota I think 4 local hired then you can get one FT.
MOM will definitely see on the ploy . WP holder can get married but need to get permission from MOM before ROM. FDW is NO-NO on marriage to local.


I cannot help you on the docs. I can only tell you what I know

[Eau2011]

Hi Mad Scientist

Wow, Really appreciate your reply at 3am in the morning! I have never thought it was going to be easy since the day we got together, but when time comes to actually facing the hurdles, its a totally different feeling. but your ans have opened up some other questions for me, can u help clarify?

Yes and no. You need to get certify at the SG embassy in Beijing or Shanghai or a Public Notary and have it translated into English. Although Mandarin is a second language in SG, the officer vetting the docs might be Indian or Malay or someone that would not know Mandarin. English is the first Language in SG. You want to apply ? Get it done.

Im sorry I dont really know much abt these certifying stuff. Does that mean the certifying can only be done at her side and I cannot do it here in SG?
Is the certifying done by photocopying the originals and then having some legal stamp chop on the photocopies to show they are really from the original?
And the procedure is certified at embassy/public notary -> translated? because from what I see, after being certified then translated, the translated copy is then uncertified. or should the translation be certified first and then certify both
subsequently, both the originals, certified copy, translated copy are all to be scanned and then uploaded when requested? this gives me another qn as to how they can verify the scanned copies are what they are and not doctored?


There are certain criteria involve in employing EPs. If you got her to work here, she will definitely under WP in your shop. Alas she cannot get marry to you as she will be under WP. You need to get her at least an S Pass to meet the criteria to be married here

I didnt know WP cannot get married, thx for this headsup. but why did you mention she will be definitely WP in my shop? I know ep criteria is quite stringent, but cant I at least apply a sp for her in my shop?


Look, I hate to tell you this and it can be very painful to your ears, marriage of convenience is a ploy by many foreign brides to marry local or PR. ICA and MOM are aware of these ploy. They will make you jump over hoops to make sure you are the real deal. Nothing dodgy.
Getting impatient will not help one bit. tell her that.
If you really love her and the love reciprocates back to you, if everything fails , you may have to live with her in her own country


It is true there are lots of hoops and hurdles to overcome. I have had first hand experience in just trying to get her visa to come sg back in Jan. That is why I am looking for other alternatives that bros in this forum here might have experienced before and can share. As you said, I have prepared to go China in worst case, but I would really want to explore and exhaust all other avenues first.

and I will appreciate if someone in the know can advise on my first qn regarding whether someone with 专业高职 in the cert is considered diploma or uni grad.

Thanks!

Well, I just arrived in Singapore two weeks ago from Germany, I don't know all those special terms about immigration or MOM. But at least I could tell you what 专科（高职） is considered, this is only a diploma, not a bachelor. It means 高等职业教育。

[abcx]

If you love her, get married!

Problem solved

well if things were only as simple as "get married!"

as Mad Scientist puts it, marriage of convenience is already a problem here and with ICA getting tight on such cases, getting married would just lead to another set of problems.

I know there is no foolproof plan, but I am just looking for a method with higher chance of success that I can bring her over to sg on a permanent basis...

[abcx]

Yes , make a copy and get it translated into English then certified by a Public Notary with the original docs to verify authencity

ok, so actually just now I gave a call to MOM. When I asked the lady specifically whether Singapore embassy based in China can do notary and/or translation services for "my friend" in China who has all the documents in Chinese, she says "no".
Sounds different from what Mad Scientist said, so I went to check on the embassy website (http://www.mfa.gov.sg/shanghai/). Notary service is listed there so there is really a slight confusion from different sources.
I am asking my gf to check out how to get her documents notarized there.

SP holder you need to pay her if I am not wrong min. $1800.00. There is a quota I think 4 local hired then you can get one FT.
MOM will definitely see on the ploy . WP holder can get married but need to get permission from MOM before ROM. FDW is NO-NO on marriage to local.

So it means if we are willing to pay her 1.8k per mth, we can try to apply sp for her? I understand the quota is 3 local to 1 ft (based on my previous trip to MOM). My friend and I already makes 2, so I guess I just need to find one more local to fillup the gap.
WP marriage permission is a big hassle and looks likely to get alot of interference from MOM, unlikely to be easy.
What does FDW stand for?

[abcx]

Well, I just arrived in Singapore two weeks ago from Germany, I don't know all those special terms about immigration or MOM. But at least I could tell you what 专科（高职） is considered, this is only a diploma, not a bachelor. It means 高等职业教育。

Thanks for your reply. You confirmed the worst fear I been having.
Are you a Chinese national?
How do you tell the difference between degree or diploma for chinese certs?

[ksl]

Well, I just arrived in Singapore two weeks ago from Germany, I don't know all those special terms about immigration or MOM. But at least I could tell you what 专科（高职） is considered, this is only a diploma, not a bachelor. It means 高等职业教育。

Thanks for your reply. You confirmed the worst fear I been having.
Are you a Chinese national?
How do you tell the difference between degree or diploma for Chinese certs?

Actually she studied at a college not a University, that's what it says in Chinese, and she took a high level course, so it is not a degree it's a diploma from a college, otherwise it would say 'Degree' in Chinese 大学 pronounced Pinyin=da4 xue2 I would also think it would signal a red flag in Singapore, that a 5 year high level course seems a little long winded.

The university mentioned appears to be a fishing science and teacher college combined...the only 5 year degree courses are Science and engineering, couldn't find anything on Tourism and Management at all.

[Mad Scientist]

ok, so actually just now I gave a call to MOM. When I asked the lady specifically whether Singapore embassy based in China can do notary and/or translation services for "my friend" in China who has all the documents in Chinese, she says "no".
Sounds different from what Mad Scientist said, so I went to check on the embassy website (http://www.mfa.gov.sg/shanghai/). Notary service is listed there so there is really a slight confusion from different sources.
I am asking my gf to check out how to get her documents notarized there.

I have done this before for documentation certification for ICA. It is the same as for MOM. You do not have to get from their listed site. Or else go the SG Embassy in Shanghai and get it witnesseth by the SG Official there.

What does FDW stand for?

Foreign DomestiC Worker.
Looks like your gf cert is a diploma. It is a no go now.
Maybe you should get married here and try to apply for LTSVP thru ICA.
Check with ICA first before ROM

[thismyvoice]

<So>

I understand that different industry has different quota. F&b may be 1-5 or 1-8. It changes according to public sentiment. Even if you have the number of workers (say 5), they need to be paid a reasonable sum before they can even be counted. If that sum is $1000, then an employee earning $500 will just contribute 0.5 to the count. My understanding is that salary is assessed using CPF contribution.

There are agencies in Singapore that will help you bring in foreign workers. Talk to them to know more. Pretend to be customer ....

There are loopholes but that will be another topic.

[sundaymorningstaple]

<So>

I understand that different industry has different quota. F&b may be 1-5 or 1-8. It changes according to public sentiment. Even if you have the number of workers (say 5), they need to be paid a reasonable sum before they can even be counted. If that sum is $1000, then an employee earning $500 will just contribute 0.5 to the count. My understanding is that salary is assessed using CPF contribution.

There are agencies in Singapore that will help you bring in foreign workers. Talk to them to know more. Pretend to be customer ....

There are loopholes but that will be another topic.

The quota is based not on income but on whether they are full time or part time, not if they earn 500 or 1000 or more a month. You understanding is flawed. There are not any loopholes. None that can be discussed here anyway, as they contravene the law. F&B is the Service industry and their dependency ratio is 50%. I know. I'm the HR & Finance Mgr of a 200 man SME and we are have a Service Industry dependency ratio. Almost exactly half of my work force are foreign and 50% of those are S pass holders while the rest are WP's, with a single EP holder.

For your education and general knowledge:

http://www.mom.gov.sg/Documents/service ... alance.pdf

[thismyvoice]

SMS what you say is true. After checking mom website, I also found the following.

For example, a company that employs two full-time local employees and two part-time employees will have a total local workforce of three persons. Employees who receive CPF contributions from multiple employers will not be considered in the calculation of the workforce.

Service sector employers are allowed to employ Work Permit holders up to 50% of the company’s/firm’s total workforce. PRC Work Permit holders can make up to 10% within the 50% Dependency Ceiling.

[sundaymorningstaple]

I reckon anybody who opened my link knows that as well. I already know it as I am the one who posted it. D'oh, Foreign Talent strikes again!