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Renounce SC OR interrupt studies to return and do NS….

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JCL99
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Renounce SC OR interrupt studies to return and do NS….

Postby JCL99 » Sun, 30 Jan 2011 11:10 pm

Hi all, really appreciate the info here - has been highly helpful, but doesnt exactly answer the specific questions i have, so any any responses would be greatly appreciated!

Anyway here's my life story…
--> Both my parents were singaporean citizens. In early 1992 our family left sing and migrated to Australia, at that time i was aged 2. In 97' iirc we obtained our aussie citizenship…

Fast forward to present day and i am now 20 going on 21. Currently i hold an australian AND singaporean citizenship. Luckily my dad went through all the appropriate channels and upon being sent a letter in the mail for me to enlistin NS, he wrote to mindef and obtained an exit permit for me, allowing me to avoid having to serve my NS duties, whereupon turning 21, i would have to renounce my SC...

HOWEVER recent visits to singapore have somewhat altered my original position (from definately not willing to serve NS).. Everytime i visit here (albeit on holiday) i fall in love with the country. The food is great, im surrounded my literally ALL my relatives, i seem to get more attention from girls (haha no joke!), dont mind the weather.. but most brutally it feels like home… Furthermore and possibly most decisively my cousin can offer me a huge headstart into the private banking sector which could lead to some incredible job oppertunities unavailable in AU

BUT my dilema is that i would have to interrupt my studies if i wished to return to complete my NS - i have just 2 more years of my law degree remaining! I am under no illusions that if i were to fail to serve, the possibilty of me obtaining an employment pass is close to 0. I wrote into mindef asking for an extension of my deferment/exit permit till the completion of my studies, whereupon i would return and serve NS. This was blatantly rejected - in addition they said that if were considering keeping my SC i would have to return ASAP and enlist in the nearest intake! Furthermore i now understand that they make u pick a citizenship - meaning returning to serve my ns may be a complete waste of time as i would anyhow have to renounce my SC

SO i wonder what everyone thinks, should i return and complete NS or give it up??
-->Also are there any other options like serving for a few months (so i can return and finish uni) then come back and finish NS
-->if i were to serve but then be forced to renounce SC, would i be looked upon favourbly if i sought an employment pass

Thanks!

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Re: Renounce SC OR interrupt studies to return and do NS….

Postby Mad Scientist » Mon, 31 Jan 2011 5:19 am

JCL99 wrote:SO i wonder what everyone thinks, should i return and complete NS or give it up??
-->Also are there any other options like serving for a few months (so i can return and finish uni) then come back and finish NS
-->if i were to serve but then be forced to renounce SC, would i be looked upon favourbly if i sought an employment pass

Thanks!


To give it up or not is your CALL. No two persons will be the same. Your dad has done his part in following all the protocols to the T. Now you have matured and decided to attain SC citizenship.

Here is how you should do it.
OZ allows the citizen to renounce for the purpose of serving the other country army and attain it back once it is over. Go and see OZ immigration and they will tell you how to do it. This is the same dilemma with Indonesian holding both OZ and Indon citizenship
If you can do that asap then serve SG NS and renounce OZ .

Your studies can be delayed as all OZ Unis does allow this provision.

Once you have cross over the bridge , you can always regain OZ citizenship back fast. To my knowledge your cut off is 30 years of age to regain OZ citizenship, I may be wrong here but it is about this age

Does this works ?
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Re: Renounce SC OR interrupt studies to return and do NS….

Postby JCL99 » Mon, 31 Jan 2011 9:26 am

Mad Scientist wrote:To give it up or not is your CALL. No two persons will be the same. Your dad has done his part in following all the protocols to the T. Now you have matured and decided to attain SC citizenship.

Here is how you should do it.
OZ allows the citizen to renounce for the purpose of serving the other country army and attain it back once it is over. Go and see OZ immigration and they will tell you how to do it. This is the same dilemma with Indonesian holding both OZ and Indon citizenship
If you can do that asap then serve SG NS and renounce OZ .

Your studies can be delayed as all OZ Unis does allow this provision.

Once you have cross over the bridge , you can always regain OZ citizenship back fast. To my knowledge your cut off is 30 years of age to regain OZ citizenship, I may be wrong here but it is about this age

Does this works ?



Appreciate the response, but a couple of things…

1) how exactly is the question of whether or not i give up my SC NOT my call? Are you refferring to the fact that the sing govt exercises some level of discretion in renouncing particular persons SC on a case by case basis? (i.e i may somehow fortuitously manage to keep my SC after serving NS whilst retaining au citizenship)

2) But after serving NS i will have the issue of having to return asap to finish my uni w/o au citizenship (assuming i cannot regain it quickly enough) - this means i would have to pay all my tuition fees upfront…

3) furthermore, once i served ns, retained SC, regained AC and began to work in singapore as a dual citizen, surely the sing govt would catch on and ask me to pick anyway...

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Re: Renounce SC OR interrupt studies to return and do NS….

Postby Koalabear » Mon, 31 Jan 2011 10:36 am

JCL99 wrote:
Mad Scientist wrote:To give it up or not is your CALL. No two persons will be the same. Your dad has done his part in following all the protocols to the T. Now you have matured and decided to attain SC citizenship.

Here is how you should do it.
OZ allows the citizen to renounce for the purpose of serving the other country army and attain it back once it is over. Go and see OZ immigration and they will tell you how to do it. This is the same dilemma with Indonesian holding both OZ and Indon citizenship
If you can do that asap then serve SG NS and renounce OZ .

Your studies can be delayed as all OZ Unis does allow this provision.

Once you have cross over the bridge , you can always regain OZ citizenship back fast. To my knowledge your cut off is 30 years of age to regain OZ citizenship, I may be wrong here but it is about this age

Does this works ?



Appreciate the response, but a couple of things…

1) how exactly is the question of whether or not i give up my SC NOT my call? Are you refferring to the fact that the sing govt exercises some level of discretion in renouncing particular persons SC on a case by case basis? (i.e i may somehow fortuitously manage to keep my SC after serving NS whilst retaining au citizenship)

2) But after serving NS i will have the issue of having to return asap to finish my uni w/o au citizenship (assuming i cannot regain it quickly enough) - this means i would have to pay all my tuition fees upfront…

3) furthermore, once i served ns, retained SC, regained AC and began to work in singapore as a dual citizen, surely the sing govt would catch on and ask me to pick anyway...


1) I think the govt does refuse annulment of sing citizenship (even when you follow protocol) at times to make an example for others to see - no idea on what scenario will trigger them to do it

2) so what? If your parents can finance your law school edu, the extra $ is peanuts to them

3) in life, everything has an element of luck...

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Re: Renounce SC OR interrupt studies to return and do NS….

Postby Mad Scientist » Mon, 31 Jan 2011 11:49 am

Mad Scientist wrote:To give it up or not is your CALL.



JCL99 wrote:Appreciate the response, but a couple of things…

1) how exactly is the question of whether or not i give up my SC NOT my call?

You misunderstood the sentence. It is up to you to renounce either OZ or SG at the age of 21/22. You have about One Year period between that. If you chose to renounce OZ, then you informed ICA and Mindef and you will be drafted into NS. You have to proof to that effect that you have already renounced OZ citizenship. I DID NOT STATE THE OTHER WAY AROUND AS YOU MAY PERCEIVE. Capisce ?

Are you refferring to the fact that the sing govt exercises some level of discretion in renouncing particular persons SC on a case by case basis? (i.e i may somehow fortuitously manage to keep my SC after serving NS whilst retaining au citizenship)

Please refer to my reply above. Since your SG IC and PP has been stored by ICA and Mindef, by the age of 21 they will sent you via snail mail on which Citizenship you wished to retain. If you chose to ignore by the turn of 22, you will automatically lose your SG Citizenship

2) But after serving NS i will have the issue of having to return asap to finish my uni w/o au citizenship (assuming i cannot regain it quickly enough) - this means i would have to pay all my tuition fees upfront…

This route has been done before read. You have to get in writing from OZ Immigration
http://www.citizenship.gov.au/current/resumption/. On your Uni fees , I am cannot help you on that , maybe you can talk to the Dean of your Uni.


3) furthermore, once i served ns, retained SC, regained AC and began to work in singapore as a dual citizen, surely the sing govt would catch on and ask me to pick anyway...


True. That is a gamble you have to take. I cannot advise you on which route you wish to take on but only offer you options for you to consider. SG and OZ does not share Citizen Information only when major crime or terrorist matters where involves extradition etc. etc......
I am not teaching you on to do it illegally but from your post you wanted the best of both worlds which as a matter of facts you CANNOT HAVE BOTH. Once you wanted to cross that threshold, you will be committing one offense or another
[/quote]
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Re: Renounce SC OR interrupt studies to return and do NS….

Postby Mad Scientist » Mon, 31 Jan 2011 11:56 am

Koalabear wrote:1) I think the govt does refuse annulment of sing citizenship (even when you follow protocol) at times to make an example for others to see - no idea on what scenario will trigger them to do it

color=blue] Not true, if you are residing in SG, you cannot annul your SG citizenship hence have to serve NS and at the same time you have to renounce foreign Citizenship . However if you are living abroad, you will received a letter from ICA to choose either one and state your intention. If you chose to ignore , you will lose your SG Citizenship by default. If you state your intention on both scenarios, you will need to take an oath of allegiance at ICA to that effect. [/color]

3) in life, everything has an element of luck...


True, take a gamble, life is full of it
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Postby JCL99 » Mon, 31 Jan 2011 5:56 pm

Mad Scientist, i apologise for missinterpreting your statement, it was my error and i should have taken the time to read your response clearly.

The whole buisness of renouncing my Australian citizenship seems too fraught with danger and after addittionally adding the possibility that it may well amount to nothing, appears to me to be of too high a risk…

So therefore -> If i were to return to sing to serve my NS whilst still holding my OZ citizenship, would I [ABSOLUTELY] be guaranteed that MINDEF would ask me to renounce one of my citizenships?

Furthermore, does the fact that i have served my NS but then renounced my SC make it at all more favourable that i would be able to access an employment pass than if i had never had served at all?… Sorry if i am confusing[/u] - BUT i guess what im trying to say is that if i am 100% committed to holding my au citizenship, is there any benefit at ALL in serving NS??

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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 01 Feb 2011 1:05 am

JCL99 wrote:Mad Scientist, i apologise for missinterpreting your statement, it was my error and i should have taken the time to read your response clearly.

No worries

The whole buisness of renouncing my Australian citizenship seems too fraught with danger and after addittionally adding the possibility that it may well amount to nothing, appears to me to be of too high a risk…

It has been done before hence I offer you this option

So therefore -> If i were to return to sing to serve my NS whilst still holding my OZ citizenship, would I [ABSOLUTELY] be guaranteed that MINDEF would ask me to renounce one of my citizenships?

Yes, you can do that too. If you insist on keeping your OZ Citizenship and renounce SG Citizenship after serving NS, your chance of getting employment in SG is far greater than other as you have been seen as contributing to the National Security of Singapore. You have to state this to that effect to Mindef. They will be more than happy to grant you this request NOW

Furthermore, does the fact that i have served my NS but then renounced my SC make it at all more favourable that i would be able to access an employment pass than if i had never had served at all?… Sorry if i am confusing[/u] - BUT i guess what im trying to say is that if i am 100% committed to holding my au citizenship, is there any benefit at ALL in serving NS??

Yes, BIG YES
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Postby JCL99 » Wed, 02 Feb 2011 12:04 am

MS a big thanku for your responses, has been a great help

A final few queries…

1) Regarding whether i were to return to sing to complete NS on the basis that i would renounce my SC - you emphasis that they would be more than happy to grant me this request NOW. Is there any reason you are emphasising the word NOW…i may have failed to understand your emphasis.

2) Re: your statement - "You have to state this to that effect to mindef" - why? I could return and serve with all the intention of renouncing SC BUT not let mindef know of this…Like is there any real benefit in letting the govt know exactly what im going to do merely for the sake of transparency?

3) Are you aware of people in a similar position to myself who HAVE been able to get an employment pass/working visa (following a renounciation) Unfortunately I am all too aware only of those who fail…The biggest risk to me is possibly "wasting" 2 yrs of my life for potentially nothing. I am fully aware that i am lucky in that i have a choice on whether to serve or not, i just dont want to make the wrong decision…


Again, many thx

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 02 Feb 2011 12:35 am

Nothing in life is certain. :-|

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Postby Mad Scientist » Wed, 02 Feb 2011 1:33 am

JCL99 wrote:MS a big thanku for your responses, has been a great help

A final few queries…

1) Regarding whether i were to return to sing to complete NS on the basis that i would renounce my SC - you emphasis that they would be more than happy to grant me this request NOW. Is there any reason you are emphasising the word NOW…i may have failed to understand your emphasis.

I believe you are below the threshold age of 21 where everything kicks in, hence once you inform MINDEF and CMPB of your intention NOW, you will be drafted into NS intake. If you left it late then your chances of getting into NS and renouncing SG citizenship and leaving the option to come over to SG later in life will get smaller by the minute.

2) Re: your statement - "You have to state this to that effect to mindef" - why? I could return and serve with all the intention of renouncing SC BUT not let mindef know of this…Like is there any real benefit in letting the govt know exactly what im going to do merely for the sake of transparency?

Transparency is important so that you are not caught off guard, if for some reason behind my comprehension that they deny you to serve NS and at the same time allow you to renounce SC Citizenship after serving NS , at least you know where the road takes you. Changes in NS law and ruling are so very often hence it is better to do it NOW.

3) Are you aware of people in a similar position to myself who HAVE been able to get an employment pass/working visa (following a renounciation) Unfortunately I am all too aware only of those who fail…The biggest risk to me is possibly "wasting" 2 yrs of my life for potentially nothing. I am fully aware that i am lucky in that i have a choice on whether to serve or not, i just dont want to make the wrong decision…

Yes, BIG YES. These persons are able to show to MOM that they did NS apart from their other educational credentials and gain employment faster than Speedy Gonzales !! There is no such thing as wasting your time, you serve, SG Gahmen will recognise your effort. To regain citizenship or PR will be impossible but to work yes. Even the ICA website states to that effect


Again, many thx
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Postby twotribez » Mon, 18 Apr 2011 2:36 pm

I am late to reply this but I was in exactly the same position as you now face in 2001.

I had 1 year left but mindef reject my extension. Till now I regret my decision. I should not have renounced and gone back to serve. As I was born in Singapore and having gone there every year without fail since I was 8 years old. I was very attached to Singapore. Even had Singapore girlfriend. We broke off when I came back to Australia for Uni.

Now, I find myself wanting to go back but have been rejected for employment passes. I even enquired if I could serve and their answer is that if you are no more Singaporean, you cannot serve.

My younger brother ended up going back to serve. He kept his SG citizenship and australian citizenship until he finished serving. Even after 3 to 4 years after serving he refused to renounce his Australia. Immigration was pressuring him to pick one. In the end he chose Australian passport as I heard it was hard to get back. He then applied for employment pass and he had no problems getting it. This is also the same for my father, he renounced but because both had serve NS, they will grant you employment pass.

I am the only one who can't go back to work and it is sad as I love Singapore and that single immature decision I made 10 years ago has cost me dearly.

However what I don't understand is why a person who left so young that did not enjoy any benefits from the country is not allowed to return simply because they did not server NS. I heard it costs about 400k to train an SG soldier. Isn't this a waste of money when they renounce? You can't even use them for reservist anymore. People like myself, I save them the 400k yet we are treated like outsiders and cannot come back too work.

Honestly at 21, a lot of us guys are not mature enough to make that decision just yet. Think about 21 during your Uni days? Mostly involves fun and socialising.

All I can see is that it must be just the principle they are holding onto. I really hope it changes one day so I can return and help the population to grow....

Wonder if I do marry a singaporean, can I go back to work? Many questions....

However I would say, serve your NS. Singapore will always be home. Grass is always greener but for myself, it was always home and I should have served.

hope this helps.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 18 Apr 2011 3:17 pm

Honestly at 21, a lot of us guys are not mature enough to make that decision just yet. Think about 21 during your Uni days? Mostly involves fun and socialising.


At 21 I was married, and ex-NAM veteran and discharged from active service. Don't know what happened to today's youth. (I've got a 21 year old son who will be entering NS in around 3 weeks) but mature he's not. I have to agree with you, I just don't understand how, as parents, we failed.

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Postby JCL99 » Mon, 18 Apr 2011 3:37 pm

twotribez wrote:I am late to reply this but I was in exactly the same position as you now face in 2001.

I had 1 year left but mindef reject my extension. Till now I regret my decision. I should not have renounced and gone back to serve. As I was born in Singapore and having gone there every year without fail since I was 8 years old. I was very attached to Singapore. Even had Singapore girlfriend. We broke off when I came back to Australia for Uni.

Now, I find myself wanting to go back but have been rejected for employment passes. I even enquired if I could serve and their answer is that if you are no more Singaporean, you cannot serve.

My younger brother ended up going back to serve. He kept his SG citizenship and australian citizenship until he finished serving. Even after 3 to 4 years after serving he refused to renounce his Australia. Immigration was pressuring him to pick one. In the end he chose Australian passport as I heard it was hard to get back. He then applied for employment pass and he had no problems getting it. This is also the same for my father, he renounced but because both had serve NS, they will grant you employment pass.

I am the only one who can't go back to work and it is sad as I love Singapore and that single immature decision I made 10 years ago has cost me dearly.

However what I don't understand is why a person who left so young that did not enjoy any benefits from the country is not allowed to return simply because they did not server NS. I heard it costs about 400k to train an SG soldier. Isn't this a waste of money when they renounce? You can't even use them for reservist anymore. People like myself, I save them the 400k yet we are treated like outsiders and cannot come back too work.

Honestly at 21, a lot of us guys are not mature enough to make that decision just yet. Think about 21 during your Uni days? Mostly involves fun and socialising.

All I can see is that it must be just the principle they are holding onto. I really hope it changes one day so I can return and help the population to grow....

Wonder if I do marry a singaporean, can I go back to work? Many questions....

However I would say, serve your NS. Singapore will always be home. Grass is always greener but for myself, it was always home and I should have served.

hope this helps.


Wow, thanks for that, quite helpful.

Just wondering, how old were u when u left sing?

I think that with singapores shrinking population and low inferitility rate, something will change soon…hope for u maybe?

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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 19 Apr 2011 4:54 am

[quote="twotribez"

However what I don't understand is why a person who left so young that did not enjoy any benefits from the country is not allowed to return simply because they did not server NS. I heard it costs about 400k to train an SG soldier. Isn't this a waste of money when they renounce? You can't even use them for reservist anymore. People like myself, I save them the 400k yet we are treated like outsiders and cannot come back too work.

Honestly at 21, a lot of us guys are not mature enough to make that decision just yet. Think about 21 during your Uni days? Mostly involves fun and socialising.

All I can see is that it must be just the principle they are holding onto. I really hope it changes one day so I can return and help the population to grow....

Wonder if I do marry a singaporean, can I go back to work? Many questions....

However I would say, serve your NS. Singapore will always be home. Grass is always greener but for myself, it was always home and I should have served.[/quote]

Well , you can mourned for your lost opportunities in SG. You are right at such a young age, it was hard to decide what was good for you. Life is so uncertain and unpredictable. People around you should be the one explaining to you and have a well informed discussion on the repercussion of taking one route against another. So.. before you start blaming on SG Gahmen, direct your anger to the people around you when you were young. They should take the blame for your demise.
This is a well beaten track where many have gone through with a point of no return. This guideline has been set in stones even before you are born.There is no change in site as it is in the Constitution not the Law. You can change the law but not the Constitution.
BTW even if you are married to a Sger, your name will stick out like a sore thumb

No point of regretting what has taken place, life goes on or else you will be bitter to the day you die.
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