Singapore Expats Forum

Filial Piety Revisited

Discuss about the latest news & interesting topics, real life experience or other out of topic discussions with locals & expatriates in Singapore.

User avatar
sundaymorningstaple
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 34782
Joined: Thu, 11 Nov 2004
Location: Still Fishing!
Contact:

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 01 Feb 2011 4:45 pm

ev-disinfection wrote:Hi All, do you all agree that if we were having this conversation in a group at a coffee club, for example, that it will be different, knowing who is older / younger, male / female, local / expats, married / single, kids / no kids, which race , religion, well traveled or not .... etc.
All the questions and answer will be different,
But i guess that is the fun of being in a forum.
Happy Holidays...


Most here already have an idea of most of the above. :-|

User avatar
JR8
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16514
Joined: Wed, 24 Mar 2010
Location: K. Puki Manis

Postby JR8 » Tue, 01 Feb 2011 7:36 pm

It is interesting isn't it. There is an element of being an 'alter-ego' on a forum like this, and as your familiarity with a forum grows so does your confidence in putting forward your opinions (perhaps just like in real life).

When a group of established forumers meet for the first time, you then in a way revert to being the real you as opposed to your screen-id, and so to an extent the conversation starts as if with complete strangers and is much less robust. I.e. the anonymity of a forum makes it comfortable to say things that you never would in person.

Then after the first meeting you go back to your screen-id, though in my experience act rather less combatively and give others more space and have a greater sense of community and responsibility towards your forum.

I think the only differentiator in your list that would matter in real-life to me is age, the rest don't make a difference as you can usually read into a post or series of posts enough about the author. But I mean for example if a newbie poster came out with a single paragraph observation about something rather random such as religion or philosophy, if I thought they were 16 years old I'd be much more likely to wade in and have a go than if I knew they were 65. Same would apply in real life.
But as SMS says there is a pretty good feel here for who is what. (And hey EV-D your web-profile is such that I almost feel like I should be calling you brudder :lol: :wink: )


p.s. Yeah ok man, I'm gonna go and roll another one now :wink: 8-)

tyianchang
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue, 25 Jan 2011
Location: uk

Postby tyianchang » Wed, 02 Feb 2011 5:40 am

Mad Scientist wrote:anne

I am not slam dunking you so do not be over zealous in your reply. I am just stating as a matter of fact. To have fusion in this discussion one has to understand the other POV but ultimately it is going nowhere from my POV. That is all. It is getting weary in my eyes to read all your posts.


You don't have to read my thread or posts. It's true about the deception I was warned about - pestilence so it said. Well, I'm glad to be rid of it at last now that I see your true colour. It was all due to my sympathy and curiousity about the person behind the mask. Otherwise what's otiose can turn into a can of worms. Nah, fusion don't sync among radical groups.

To save my own soul, it was you who spoke to me first - I usually read past crabby posts but you were screaming for sympathy now that I remember. I'm sure you have lots of that now. There, peace to you now.
tyianchang

User avatar
JR8
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16514
Joined: Wed, 24 Mar 2010
Location: K. Puki Manis

Postby JR8 » Wed, 02 Feb 2011 6:03 am

Image

tyianchang
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue, 25 Jan 2011
Location: uk

Postby tyianchang » Wed, 02 Feb 2011 6:07 am

Mary Hatch Bailey wrote:I would have paid for my coffee and gotten up and left after the opening salvo. Life is just too damn short, even on it's longest days.


Oh well, since you've swallowed your words, but you have to know that bitching, forking, cronyism and women bashing are considered of the old school in this kopitiam and , sorry to say, not good for the atmosphere.
tyianchang

User avatar
Mad Scientist
Director
Director
Posts: 3457
Joined: Thu, 03 Dec 2009
Location: TIMBUKTU

Postby Mad Scientist » Wed, 02 Feb 2011 6:23 am

tyianchang wrote:To save my own soul, it was you who spoke to me first - I usually read past crabby posts but you were screaming for sympathy now that I remember. I'm sure you have lots of that now. There, peace to you now.


Anne

Let's be sure on this. I DO NOT WANT/SPEAK to you neither did I was replying to your post when I first posted the statement on my earlier comments before this. It was a GENERAL STATEMENT from what my POV. It was not directed to you nor anybody else. You seemed to take offense on my statement . I realised that you will take offense on any statement. You replied to me and I again stressed out on what I meant.
I live in OZ and NZ for a few years of my life, though I have a couple of Ozzies, Maoris, Pakehas friends, I dare not even comment on the Abos , the Maoris or the Pakehas like you did, you managed to upset K1w1 for the wrong reason. This is you. You seemed to jump the gun or fire without looking. For god's sake, read my post before you comment. I resent your last statement and please do not make a mockery of something that you do not even know or begin to imagine.

I DID NOT ASKED FOR ANY SYMPATHY NOR EMPATHY or any gestures to that effect on what has happened to me before. YOU did not know what I have gone thru . Please keep your comments pertaining to this matter to YOURSELF. There are only TWO PERSONS in this forum that knew about this. I did not asked for any accolades nor sympathy or whatever you may perceived. I did what I did, for what I believe. This forum was just a tool for me to convey messages to targetted audiences apart from minor nuisances that I encounter. It is just a waste of time replying to you
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

tyianchang
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue, 25 Jan 2011
Location: uk

Postby tyianchang » Wed, 02 Feb 2011 6:31 am

earthfriendly wrote:
tyianchang wrote:
Read JR8's in this column but many posts back which says - "Chinese culture ? Follow the money." It's an offensive remark and it's racist as it stereotypes. It's not acceptable. Or is it that he just can't take it that China had repelled the gun boats and the opium to make such 'a great leap forward?' .


Why can't JR8 voice his opinion, even if it is offensivee? Isn't that free speech is all about?

Oh yeah, free speech's all about insulting another race and culture by some. Some seriously questionable ethics.

My sister sent me some chinese children story books and some of it about FP. She had explained the concept to her own kid but would not imposed it upon the child as she also believed in free will and choices. It is something nice to learn about and keep in mind, doesn't mean one has to practice it.

Fair enough but you're not asked to practise anything other than share your views. And who says anything about imposing FP on anyone? My lovely daughter would think it's ridiculous I bother to talk in this vein, if you've read what I said about my own affair with FP.

I don't see FP adding value to my own life and don't even bother with my kids. I want my kids to respect everything and all life forms, not just parents or people related to them. Some do-gooders would advice it is important to teach the kids traditional chinese values like FP. Good values are just that, it is good for everyone. It has no racial or geograhical boundaries. I want my kids to be good human beings. It is not necessary for them to be good Chinese Americans lah.


Kids learn respect from their parents, their culture, their nation. What happened in the 70s should have taught us a great deal, but I'm now more doubtful.
FP happens to be a Chinese tradition with complex implications and choices for individuals within family units. The term Chinese is used as a specific reference that can lead to universals. Say, didn't you make the effort to google the details?

There's no yellow peril so chill out and I really don't differentiate if you're Maori, Irish, Chinese or Venusian - humans are all equal in my eyes but are you a good human being? Am I ? That's the question and raison d'etre for posting in this forum.
You know what - FP cannot be taught; it comes from the heart. And wouldn't you be happy if your kids show you their love and consideration in the ways as I'd described? I know for myself I'd rather my kids look after themselves and their kids but I'd be lying if I say I won't feel blessed or proud when my kids practice such FP.
BTW, thanks for sharing about your family.
tyianchang

tyianchang
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue, 25 Jan 2011
Location: uk

Postby tyianchang » Wed, 02 Feb 2011 7:29 am

ev-disinfection wrote:Hi All, do you all agree that if we were having this conversation in a group at a coffee club, for example, that it will be different, knowing who is older / younger, male / female, local / expats, married / single, kids / no kids, which race , religion, well traveled or not .... etc.
All the questions and answer will be different,
But i guess that is the fun of being in a forum.
Happy Holidays...


A fresh breath of spring. Happy CNY.
Does any of the above matter in a POV?
I think I can guess who you are.
tyianchang

User avatar
JR8
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 16514
Joined: Wed, 24 Mar 2010
Location: K. Puki Manis

Postby JR8 » Wed, 02 Feb 2011 7:42 am

'Banana enjoys a Havana'

Image

User avatar
Mary Hatch Bailey
Manager
Manager
Posts: 1579
Joined: Thu, 06 Oct 2005
Location: Bedford Falls

Postby Mary Hatch Bailey » Wed, 02 Feb 2011 8:12 am

tyianchang wrote:
Mary Hatch Bailey wrote:I would have paid for my coffee and gotten up and left after the opening salvo. Life is just too damn short, even on it's longest days.


Oh well, since you've swallowed your words, but you have to know that bitching, forking, cronyism and women bashing are considered of the old school in this kopitiam and , sorry to say, not good for the atmosphere.


I have no earthly idea what you are talking about, again... :roll:

Just a suggestion, either write in english that everyone can understand or practice some ruthless self-editing. Not only are your posts difficult to follow, they are filled with half-truths or flat-out fallacies:


Nah, fusion don't sync among radical groups.


Mussolini? Meet Hitler...

User avatar
sundaymorningstaple
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 34782
Joined: Thu, 11 Nov 2004
Location: Still Fishing!
Contact:

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 02 Feb 2011 11:48 am

How about I toss some fresh kindling on the smoldering fire...... :devil:

Anne, you should love this one, although I would almost guess you've already read it. :wink:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 98754.html

Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior
By AMY CHUA

A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it's like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I've done it. Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do:

• attend a sleepover

• have a playdate

• be in a school play

• complain about not being in a school play

• watch TV or play computer games

• choose their own extracurricular activities

• get any grade less than an A

• not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama

• play any instrument other than the piano or violin

• not play the piano or violin.

I'm using the term "Chinese mother" loosely. I know some Korean, Indian, Jamaican, Irish and Ghanaian parents who qualify too. Conversely, I know some mothers of Chinese heritage, almost always born in the West, who are not Chinese mothers, by choice or otherwise. I'm also using the term "Western parents" loosely. Western parents come in all varieties.

All the same, even when Western parents think they're being strict, they usually don't come close to being Chinese mothers. For example, my Western friends who consider themselves strict make their children practice their instruments 30 minutes every day. An hour at most. For a Chinese mother, the first hour is the easy part. It's hours two and three that get tough.

When it comes to parenting, the Chinese seem to produce children who display academic excellence, musical mastery and professional success - or so the stereotype goes. WSJ's Christina Tsuei speaks to two moms raised by Chinese immigrants who share what it was like growing up and how they hope to raise their children.

Despite our squeamishness about cultural stereotypes, there are tons of studies out there showing marked and quantifiable differences between Chinese and Westerners when it comes to parenting. In one study of 50 Western American mothers and 48 Chinese immigrant mothers, almost 70% of the Western mothers said either that "stressing academic success is not good for children" or that "parents need to foster the idea that learning is fun." By contrast, roughly 0% of the Chinese mothers felt the same way. Instead, the vast majority of the Chinese mothers said that they believe their children can be "the best" students, that "academic achievement reflects successful parenting," and that if children did not excel at school then there was "a problem" and parents "were not doing their job." Other studies indicate that compared to Western parents, Chinese parents spend approximately 10 times as long every day drilling academic activities with their children. By contrast, Western kids are more likely to participate in sports teams.

What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it. To get good at anything you have to work, and children on their own never want to work, which is why it is crucial to override their preferences. This often requires fortitude on the part of the parents because the child will resist; things are always hardest at the beginning, which is where Western parents tend to give up. But if done properly, the Chinese strategy produces a virtuous circle. Tenacious practice, practice, practice is crucial for excellence; rote repetition is underrated in America. Once a child starts to excel at something—whether it's math, piano, pitching or ballet—he or she gets praise, admiration and satisfaction. This builds confidence and makes the once not-fun activity fun. This in turn makes it easier for the parent to get the child to work even more.

Chinese parents can get away with things that Western parents can't. Once when I was young—maybe more than once—when I was extremely disrespectful to my mother, my father angrily called me "garbage" in our native Hokkien dialect. It worked really well. I felt terrible and deeply ashamed of what I had done. But it didn't damage my self-esteem or anything like that. I knew exactly how highly he thought of me. I didn't actually think I was worthless or feel like a piece of garbage.

As an adult, I once did the same thing to Sophia, calling her garbage in English when she acted extremely disrespectfully toward me. When I mentioned that I had done this at a dinner party, I was immediately ostracized. One guest named Marcy got so upset she broke down in tears and had to leave early. My friend Susan, the host, tried to rehabilitate me with the remaining guests.

The fact is that Chinese parents can do things that would seem unimaginable—even legally actionable—to Westerners. Chinese mothers can say to their daughters, "Hey fatty—lose some weight." By contrast, Western parents have to tiptoe around the issue, talking in terms of "health" and never ever mentioning the f-word, and their kids still end up in therapy for eating disorders and negative self-image. (I also once heard a Western father toast his adult daughter by calling her "beautiful and incredibly competent." She later told me that made her feel like garbage.)

Chinese parents can order their kids to get straight As. Western parents can only ask their kids to try their best. Chinese parents can say, "You're lazy. All your classmates are getting ahead of you." By contrast, Western parents have to struggle with their own conflicted feelings about achievement, and try to persuade themselves that they're not disappointed about how their kids turned out.
I've thought long and hard about how Chinese parents can get away with what they do. I think there are three big differences between the Chinese and Western parental mind-sets.

First, I've noticed that Western parents are extremely anxious about their children's self-esteem. They worry about how their children will feel if they fail at something, and they constantly try to reassure their children about how good they are notwithstanding a mediocre performance on a test or at a recital. In other words, Western parents are concerned about their children's psyches. Chinese parents aren't. They assume strength, not fragility, and as a result they behave very differently.

For example, if a child comes home with an A-minus on a test, a Western parent will most likely praise the child. The Chinese mother will gasp in horror and ask what went wrong. If the child comes home with a B on the test, some Western parents will still praise the child. Other Western parents will sit their child down and express disapproval, but they will be careful not to make their child feel inadequate or insecure, and they will not call their child "stupid," "worthless" or "a disgrace." Privately, the Western parents may worry that their child does not test well or have aptitude in the subject or that there is something wrong with the curriculum and possibly the whole school. If the child's grades do not improve, they may eventually schedule a meeting with the school principal to challenge the way the subject is being taught or to call into question the teacher's credentials.

If a Chinese child gets a B—which would never happen—there would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion. The devastated Chinese mother would then get dozens, maybe hundreds of practice tests and work through them with her child for as long as it takes to get the grade up to an A.

Chinese parents demand perfect grades because they believe that their child can get them. If their child doesn't get them, the Chinese parent assumes it's because the child didn't work hard enough. That's why the solution to substandard performance is always to excoriate, punish and shame the child. The Chinese parent believes that their child will be strong enough to take the shaming and to improve from it. (And when Chinese kids do excel, there is plenty of ego-inflating parental praise lavished in the privacy of the home.)

Second, Chinese parents believe that their kids owe them everything. The reason for this is a little unclear, but it's probably a combination of Confucian filial piety and the fact that the parents have sacrificed and done so much for their children. (And it's true that Chinese mothers get in the trenches, putting in long grueling hours personally tutoring, training, interrogating and spying on their kids.) Anyway, the understanding is that Chinese children must spend their lives repaying their parents by obeying them and making them proud.

By contrast, I don't think most Westerners have the same view of children being permanently indebted to their parents. My husband, Jed, actually has the opposite view. "Children don't choose their parents," he once said to me. "They don't even choose to be born. It's parents who foist life on their kids, so it's the parents' responsibility to provide for them. Kids don't owe their parents anything. Their duty will be to their own kids." This strikes me as a terrible deal for the Western parent.

Third, Chinese parents believe that they know what is best for their children and therefore override all of their children's own desires and preferences. That's why Chinese daughters can't have boyfriends in high school and why Chinese kids can't go to sleepaway camp. It's also why no Chinese kid would ever dare say to their mother, "I got a part in the school play! I'm Villager Number Six. I'll have to stay after school for rehearsal every day from 3:00 to 7:00, and I'll also need a ride on weekends." God help any Chinese kid who tried that one.

Don't get me wrong: It's not that Chinese parents don't care about their children. Just the opposite. They would give up anything for their children. It's just an entirely different parenting model.

Here's a story in favor of coercion, Chinese-style. Lulu was about 7, still playing two instruments, and working on a piano piece called "The Little White Donkey" by the French composer Jacques Ibert. The piece is really cute—you can just imagine a little donkey ambling along a country road with its master—but it's also incredibly difficult for young players because the two hands have to keep schizophrenically different rhythms.

Lulu couldn't do it. We worked on it nonstop for a week, drilling each of her hands separately, over and over. But whenever we tried putting the hands together, one always morphed into the other, and everything fell apart. Finally, the day before her lesson, Lulu announced in exasperation that she was giving up and stomped off.

"Get back to the piano now," I ordered.

"You can't make me."

"Oh yes, I can."

Back at the piano, Lulu made me pay. She punched, thrashed and kicked. She grabbed the music score and tore it to shreds. I taped the score back together and encased it in a plastic shield so that it could never be destroyed again. Then I hauled Lulu's dollhouse to the car and told her I'd donate it to the Salvation Army piece by piece if she didn't have "The Little White Donkey" perfect by the next day. When Lulu said, "I thought you were going to the Salvation Army, why are you still here?" I threatened her with no lunch, no dinner, no Christmas or Hanukkah presents, no birthday parties for two, three, four years. When she still kept playing it wrong, I told her she was purposely working herself into a frenzy because she was secretly afraid she couldn't do it. I told her to stop being lazy, cowardly, self-indulgent and pathetic.

Jed took me aside. He told me to stop insulting Lulu—which I wasn't even doing, I was just motivating her—and that he didn't think threatening Lulu was helpful. Also, he said, maybe Lulu really just couldn't do the technique—perhaps she didn't have the coordination yet—had I considered that possibility?

"You just don't believe in her," I accused.

"That's ridiculous," Jed said scornfully. "Of course I do."

"Sophia could play the piece when she was this age."

"But Lulu and Sophia are different people," Jed pointed out.

"Oh no, not this," I said, rolling my eyes. "Everyone is special in their special own way," I mimicked sarcastically. "Even losers are special in their own special way. Well don't worry, you don't have to lift a finger. I'm willing to put in as long as it takes, and I'm happy to be the one hated. And you can be the one they adore because you make them pancakes and take them to Yankees games."

I rolled up my sleeves and went back to Lulu. I used every weapon and tactic I could think of. We worked right through dinner into the night, and I wouldn't let Lulu get up, not for water, not even to go to the bathroom. The house became a war zone, and I lost my voice yelling, but still there seemed to be only negative progress, and even I began to have doubts.

Then, out of the blue, Lulu did it. Her hands suddenly came together—her right and left hands each doing their own imperturbable thing—just like that.

Lulu realized it the same time I did. I held my breath. She tried it tentatively again. Then she played it more confidently and faster, and still the rhythm held. A moment later, she was beaming.

"Mommy, look—it's easy!" After that, she wanted to play the piece over and over and wouldn't leave the piano. That night, she came to sleep in my bed, and we snuggled and hugged, cracking each other up. When she performed "The Little White Donkey" at a recital a few weeks later, parents came up to me and said, "What a perfect piece for Lulu—it's so spunky and so her."

Even Jed gave me credit for that one. Western parents worry a lot about their children's self-esteem. But as a parent, one of the worst things you can do for your child's self-esteem is to let them give up. On the flip side, there's nothing better for building confidence than learning you can do something you thought you couldn't.

There are all these new books out there portraying Asian mothers as scheming, callous, overdriven people indifferent to their kids' true interests. For their part, many Chinese secretly believe that they care more about their children and are willing to sacrifice much more for them than Westerners, who seem perfectly content to let their children turn out badly. I think it's a misunderstanding on both sides. All decent parents want to do what's best for their children. The Chinese just have a totally different idea of how to do that.

Western parents try to respect their children's individuality, encouraging them to pursue their true passions, supporting their choices, and providing positive reinforcement and a nurturing environment. By contrast, the Chinese believe that the best way to protect their children is by preparing them for the future, letting them see what they're capable of, and arming them with skills, work habits and inner confidence that no one can ever take away.

—Amy Chua is a professor at Yale Law School and author of "Day of Empire" and "World on Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability." This essay is excerpted from "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother" by Amy Chua, to be published Tuesday by the Penguin Press, a member of Penguin Group (USA) Inc. Copyright © 2011 by Amy Chua.

User avatar
Mary Hatch Bailey
Manager
Manager
Posts: 1579
Joined: Thu, 06 Oct 2005
Location: Bedford Falls

Postby Mary Hatch Bailey » Wed, 02 Feb 2011 1:29 pm

I was wondering how long it would take someone to bring this up... (oh wait! I did on another thread...) Amy Chua and that idiot husband of hers should be locked up.

User avatar
poodlek
Reporter
Reporter
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon, 10 May 2010
Location: Taipa, Macau
Contact:

Postby poodlek » Wed, 02 Feb 2011 1:58 pm

Mary Hatch Bailey wrote:I was wondering how long it would take someone to bring this up... (oh wait! I did on another thread...) Amy Chua and that idiot husband of hers should be locked up.


I saw her interviewed on the Colbert Report and she's not nearly as crazy as this excerpt makes her seem. The point of her book as a whole is to point out how she learned from her kids that Chinese parenting isn't best in every situation, and although she stands by many of her practices, she did end up getting 'humbled' (as she put it) by her 13 year old daughter.
I don't think she's a complete monster. My parents did worse to me, and it wasn't out of duty. I still turned out OK.

User avatar
k1w1
Reporter
Reporter
Posts: 680
Joined: Mon, 30 May 2005

Postby k1w1 » Wed, 02 Feb 2011 2:13 pm

Yes, she has since had to admit that her torrent of emotional abuse was not the best way to motivate her child - but only because it backfired on her.

beppi
Manager
Manager
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu, 07 Sep 2006
Location: Ahlongistan (O$P$)

Postby beppi » Wed, 02 Feb 2011 2:23 pm

I read the same article SMS posted above a few weeks ago and, having a half-Asian baby, know the issues well.

Personally, I prefer a dog that runs after a stick because he likes it over one that runs because he has to or fears penalty. My dog (if I had one - I prefer cats) would never win a competition, but might be happier for it - or so I believe.

Let's also mention the recent scientific results showing that having more money doesn't lead to more fulfilled lives (independent of culture, there is no correlation) and we have all the East-West stereotypes in one thread!


  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post
  • The tips thing, revisited
    by Brah » Sat, 17 May 2014 10:59 pm » in Staying, Living in Singapore
    47
    7620
    by zzm9980 View the latest post
    Sun, 08 Jun 2014 3:24 am

Return to “General Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests