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Filial Piety Revisited

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 17 Mar 2011 5:31 pm

Easy answer. You are claiming we are racist. You are changing the playground to a war zone. When that happens, I get involved. If you intend to pursue it, Pal or no Pal (which by the way, I caught your "IF Pal ...." IF?) Veiled threats? Doesn't faze me in the least.

All the rest have toned it down. They all caught the group content contained in the message and have toned down the rhetoric. Have you? No. Are you willing to tone it down and start playing only the ball? If not, tic...toc...tic...toc... still stands. You were nothing more than the vehicle to get the message across. Your charges of racism gave me the opportunity to rein in all participants. If you think it was solely directed to you, well, you're are not nearly as perceptive as I gave you credit for. Sorry, my mistake.

Frankly, you are starting to get rather tiresome to be honest and I'm tired of the barrage of PM's in my inbox. So all of us are going to start being civil here and start playing the ball or reap the consequences.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Thu, 17 Mar 2011 5:33 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Those of us who raise our voices in condemnation also practice what we preach. It only by example that our condemnation can hold any value.

If the example were inspiring enough, the preaching would not be necessary.

Look at Japan's example. After Katrina, the Japanese did not raise their voices at the looting that took place. They did not find condemnation necessary. Now, they are simply showing by their quiet example that there is a better way.

As you point out, both approaches work, but with different people in different places. Anyone who thinks that preaching to China will work just doesn't understand the country at all.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Thu, 17 Mar 2011 6:36 pm

tyianchang wrote:The number of posters who use that name and aunty batty etc - you condone them? I stand for my statement.

Is it not noticed by many that local OPs are often banned and locked out when they make justified protests while you engage in vitriolic retaliation? I've read through them but as the Op died out, there was no point in taking in any of your one-sided barrage.

You'd never directly confronted the number of bullies in this forum.

Tyianchang,

I know it feels unfair. I too have witnessed several local posters who were, in my opinion, ganged up on. They reacted and became emotional, and left more or less in tears. I did too, once. And it pains me every time I watch it happen again to someone else.

The harsh reality is that the world is not a fair place and neither is this forum. This is an expat forum and obviously biased towards the expat way of thinking and communicating. So the rule of thumb is when you enter any game, you play by its rules. Then you can stay and play as long as you want. If you don't like the rules, find another game to play.

You have to stop lashing out, even if you feel it is justified. SMS is right that others have done their part and toned down. It's your turn. Just don't react to all the perceived slights. Or do what I do and only respond to posters you like and get along with. Pick your battles. Sometimes, there is greater wisdom in walking away than in trying to win.

Sigh, sorry about the sermon.

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Postby tyianchang » Thu, 17 Mar 2011 6:49 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:
tyianchang wrote:The number of posters who use that name and aunty batty etc - you condone them? I stand for my statement.

Is it not noticed by many that local OPs are often banned and locked out when they make justified protests while you engage in vitriolic retaliation? I've read through them but as the Op died out, there was no point in taking in any of your one-sided barrage.

You'd never directly confronted the number of bullies in this forum.

Tyianchang,

I know it feels unfair. I too have witnessed several local posters who were, in my opinion, ganged up on. They reacted and became emotional, and left more or less in tears. I did too, once. And it pains me every time I watch it happen again to someone else.

The harsh reality is that the world is not a fair place and neither is this forum. This is an expat forum and obviously biased towards the expat way of thinking and communicating. So the rule of thumb is when you enter any game, you play by its rules. Then you can stay and play as long as you want. If you don't like the rules, find another game to play.

You have to stop lashing out, even if you feel it is justified. SMS is right that others have done their part and toned down. It's your turn. Just don't react to all the perceived slights. Or do what I do and only respond to posters you like and get along with. Pick your battles. Sometimes, there is greater wisdom in walking away than in trying to win.

Sigh, sorry about the sermon.


I'd just lost my reply to KiWi which included an apology if she's upset by any of my lines and that it wasn't intended in the way she perceived it. It was long so I won't repeat it.
I see it all as communicating and sharing of knowledge, even when personalities get in the way.
I will make enquiries with the Chinese embassy about the extra payment though because the issue is serious, not that it's for or against anything or anyone but as a national policy that affects people.
Regarding the expats in the forum, I can see there're some very fair-minded posters as well. I guess I stayed on here as it's my op and I feel responsible for levelling things out. What's the point of discussions?
Thank you , WIMH, for all your loveliness and please don't let this cloud hide the sunshine in SG.
I'm just learning new things everyday.
tyianchang

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 17 Mar 2011 7:00 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:Those of us who raise our voices in condemnation also practice what we preach. It only by example that our condemnation can hold any value.


Look at Japan's example. After Katrina, the Japanese did not raise their voices at the looting that took place. They did not find condemnation necessary. Now, they are simply showing by their quiet example that there is a better way.


I'm rather confused by this statement. When you say 'The Japanese' do you mean the government? But why would they have wished to criticise looting in New Orleans?

If you meant the Japanese people I do not know how you can know that they were not critical, short of by reading every publication, blog and forum in Japan.

Agree with your other comments about 'rules of the game'. I've mentioned before that some locals walk into this 'Expat Pub' and have an unrealistic expectation that it should be a kopitiam. Apart from trolls I don't recall anyone here being 'ganged up on' into leaving, at least not in my time, and with the thoughtful moderation rather wonder quite how innocent these departees actually were.

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Postby Plavt » Thu, 17 Mar 2011 7:47 pm

JR8 wrote:
If you meant the Japanese people I do not know how you can know that they were not critical, short of by reading every publication, blog and forum in Japan.



With respect to WIMH, I think like many others she doesn't really understand the attitude Japanese so frequently display; more often than not they say nothing and are somewhat puzzled by the behaviour of other nation's people (apparently evident in Japanese newsapapers). They could of course be critical but it tends to be in mind only as in the main they don't like picking fights and causing public spectacles. Those of you on this board who have lived and worked with them will know what I mean.

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Postby nakatago » Thu, 17 Mar 2011 8:53 pm

Plavt wrote:Those of you on this board who have lived and worked with them will know what I mean.


Yes. They rarely show anger or disappointment. But they do feel those and boy, you will too when they do, in spite outward appearances.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Thu, 17 Mar 2011 9:24 pm

JR8 wrote:I'm rather confused by this statement. When you say 'The Japanese' do you mean the government? But why would they have wished to criticise looting in New Orleans?

If you meant the Japanese people I do not know how you can know that they were not critical, short of by reading every publication, blog and forum in Japan.

Why would anyone here have wished to criticise claims by Chinese parents against the NZ government? Yet they do. My point is that some people openly condemn others, whereas others exercise restraint. I did mean the Japanese people, and of course I haven't read every website but as Plavt and Nakatago point out, it's just not their style. Contrast that with the norm on this board :wink:

My point to SMS is that in Japan, you'd do better to work with the Japanese style, and in China with the Chinese style etc. The Western style of loud condemnation doesn't work well everywhere, that's all.

JR8 wrote:Agree with your other comments about 'rules of the game'. I've mentioned before that some locals walk into this 'Expat Pub' and have an unrealistic expectation that it should be a kopitiam. Apart from trolls I don't recall anyone here being 'ganged up on' into leaving, at least not in my time, and with the thoughtful moderation rather wonder quite how innocent these departees actually were.

I've also wondered before that some expats walk into Singapore and have an unrealistic expectation that it should be an Expat Pub, and then complain loudly that we don't do things the way they like :)

In my memory there were a few local posters who were not banned but left in a huff of their own accord, yours truly included.

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Postby ksl » Thu, 17 Mar 2011 9:29 pm

JR8:He said there had been no formal approach from the Chinese Government for more money for those families
What you are seeing is a person that is mouthing is own individual opinion...and also why it's a comment that is totally inappropriate, insensitive and irrational, and lacks the integrity of any experienced diplomacy in cultural affairs. To me it's a non starter from the time he opened his mouth, as government policies over ride any individual. The policy stands, and is very unlikely to be changed, unless it's under the table. Then nobody is any wiser.

It's still gossip true or false, blown out of proportion because it was his opinion only, not conveyed by the Chinese government. It's a non starter, that is amusing when a foreigner puts his foot in it. It's an embarrassment especially as a government representative.

Though let's face it, they are only following the Americanised version of life, and we all do it, when it comes to insurance payouts, but try for once getting more than you are entitled too out of any Insurance company is a joke in itself. That's the way i see it. It all boiled down to cultural misunderstandings, that the Chinese diplomat is still scratching his head thinking what did I say wrong! I understand of course the reaction to his statement, though it shouldn't be taken so seriously.

It's just a cock up and we see many of them. Could also be an opportunist moment for a corrupt official, though very unlikely as it would go down on public record. They will probably call him back home, imprison him for a year while programming takes place on how not to upset is host Country.


Ah ah, now I can see many long winded posts what a relief! :lol: This maybe a good time to remind Anne too, that she is being monitored on her remarks by political alien Countries. :roll: :lol:

It's understandable that there is a reaction, but if one looks deeper into the cultural aspects, they will see it's just a political blunder, that has been bumped up to sell papers knowing it is controversial and it works.
Last edited by ksl on Thu, 17 Mar 2011 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby x9200 » Thu, 17 Mar 2011 10:07 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:I've also wondered before that some expats walk into Singapore and have an unrealistic expectation that it should be an Expat Pub, and then complain loudly that we don't do things the way they like :)

It's a bit of the problem here because such expectations seem to be supported by your very own government to mention things like the courtesy campaign. Even worse, you seem to be in minority - most Singaporeans would probably say that they behave not differently (or behave better) then the expats fully measuring up to the so called Western standards. I completely agree with you on the main point - we are still guests here so the guests should not that openly criticize the host and this is rude, but the whole environment is so frustrating and schizophrenic that sometime people can not just help themselves :(

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Postby ksl » Thu, 17 Mar 2011 10:13 pm

X9200:frustrating and schizophrenic
Quadfrustraschizophrenia :shock: After a few drinks :lol: Strange that durian isn't involved with his humour, I'll bet he's lurking somewhere :P grinning like a Cheshire cat.
Last edited by ksl on Fri, 18 Mar 2011 12:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Thu, 17 Mar 2011 11:09 pm

x9200 wrote:It's a bit of the problem here because such expectations seem to be supported by your very own government to mention things like the courtesy campaign. Even worse, you seem to be in minority - most Singaporeans would probably say that they behave not differently (or behave better) then the expats fully measuring up to the so called Western standards. I completely agree with you on the main point - we are still guests here so the guests should not that openly criticize the host and this is rude, but the whole environment is so frustrating and schizophrenic that sometime people can not just help themselves :(

I don't think my government, or at least LKY as its personification, has ever aspired to live up to Western standards nor recognised those standards as necessarily superior. You're one of the few who understand how certain aspects of Western behaviour come across as very rude here, so in some ways Western manners are not up to our standards :)

It still amazes me how after being introduced to expats as a Singaporean, they proceed to condemn Singapore and Singaporeans to my face. That is extremely ungracious but I've learned to accept it the way you have to learn to accept spitting on the streets. I know they don't mean to antagonize me, but are just venting. I just wish this attempt to understand and accept would work both ways.

Perhaps you can understand that Tyianchang finds this forum frustrating and schizophrenic too... that posters here hold themselves up as models of good manners, but then proceed to call her names and make unprovoked, snide remarks about her to each other. In my opinion what happened here borders on bullying. I'm more sensitive to what's going on because I am also a minority here. As SMS has pointed out before, the majority never feels the discrimination, only the minority. You, X9200, have been a gentleman. But I have watched some others go at her and frankly, if these are 'Western standards' then I certainly do not aspire to them.

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Postby ev-disinfection » Thu, 17 Mar 2011 11:23 pm

=D> =D>
My thoughts exactly, WIMH, couldn't have said it better myself.

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Postby ksl » Thu, 17 Mar 2011 11:37 pm

x9200 wrote:
ksl wrote:One can only blame the system we live in

This is always the case. ALWAYS. You can blame somebody else for any mischief or crime as we are to large extent made not self-created. Parents, society, evolution you name it. So where should we place the borderline?
Same goes for the information people use to judge. You never absolutely know is it truthful or not. Does not need to be a newspaper. Keeping silent just not to hurt someone in the rare case of being misinformed typically does much more harm than rising your voice.
I like this one too, so i dragged it forward. My mum would always say to my dad, why are you stoking the fire, when it doesn't need stoking, he said it's a bad habit, your just wasting the coal, she replied. No i'm not said he, or yes you are, she replied. The kids of course just looked at each other and burst out laughing, saying here we go again, who's going to win, of course nobody wins though the arguing gets more personal as one is Welsh and the other is English/Irish, so it escalates into politics and a slagging match :lol: I then think of Mary Hatch Baileys avatar, and the phrase 'It's a Wonderful Life'

Well pointed out WIMH 8-)

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Re: Filial Piety Revisited

Postby Addadude » Fri, 18 Mar 2011 1:27 am

Ladies and gentlemen, the quote below was what I believed started all this shi--- er, I mean nonsense.

anneteoh wrote:But FP is unheard of in the West where the individual reigns supreme, even within the family structure. With the current crisis on pensions, annuities and other financial shortfalls faced by the retireds, FP might be a jolly good idea. I mean, imagine getting such returns from your children - all of which goes without saying. A good culture to continue?


Now I don't know about the rest of you, but to me this last paragraph was clearly a barb carefully calculated to provoke the kind of reactions that have littered this thread. Anneteoh or tyianchang or whoever she is was every bit as guilty of making sweeping (and dismissive) statements about 'Western society' (whatever that means) as expats here are often accused of making about Singapore.

Given that she has lived in the UK for quite some time, Anne or tyianchang knew exactly what the results of her comments would be. She duly got those responses and (at least to my mind) fared poorly in the subsequent, uh, debates. That's when, according to her, these responses suddenly became total condemnations of all things Chinese.

Making disparaging remarks (consciously or unconsciously, deliberately or unintentionally) about other cultures, races or nationalities is a pretty common trait of virtually every country. Singapore (both the government and its people) are every bit as guilty of condescension as any western nation or person. Just ask your neighbors in Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines or Thailand.

WIMH is quite right in pointing out the seemingly endless complaints about Singapore customs/peculiarities/eccentricities that appear on this board. I'm sure they are irritating to any relatively innocent local who happens to drop by.

But, by and large, I have found that most of the posters here try to be genuinely constructive. SMS, for all his criticisms of Singapore society, has lived here for about 250 years and is active and contributing in his local community. Many others here (myself included) have made Singapore our home for more than a decade. Obviously we like the place - otherwise we wouldn't be here - but are we not entitled to make constructive criticism of a place we have contributed to for so long?

If the criticisms that are made are unfair or out of place, by all means they should be addressed in no uncertain terms. This applies to whiny expats bitching about Singapore and to expat Singaporeans making sweeping generalizations about a western culture they do not yet appear to understand.

But, above all, please, PLEASE do not call the 'racism card' when you are clearly on the losing end of an argument. It's boring.
"Both politicians and nappies need to be changed regularly, and for the same reasons."


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