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Filial Piety Revisited

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JR8
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Postby JR8 » Tue, 15 Mar 2011 6:25 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Yeah but the Telegraph story leaves out the important bits. They've changed it to future breadwinner which isn't quite the same thing.


True the nuance of quite how crass the demands are is diluted, by not using verbatim quotes from the embassy.

Edit to add:
This is an interesting piece that just about hits the nail on the head. An editorial from a Kiwi paper...
http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standar ... tary-terms

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Postby k1w1 » Wed, 16 Mar 2011 6:46 am

tyianchang wrote:
k1w1 wrote:
But they are claiming they should have had more compensation *because* due to filial peity they lost more MONEY than other parents... Can you really not see just how descpicable that is?


Did they actually use the phrase ' due to filial piety' or due to the 'one child policy'? I don't see FP being mentioned anywhere in that report, unless 'pension' is assumed to be synonymous. In the op FP is not the same as 'pension.'


Oh, so if the newspaper article didn't use the words "filial peity" when discussing the expectations of the Chinese parents that their children would support them in their retirement then the article must be talking about something else entirely? Seriously?

I suspect you are deliberately dodging the issue (thereby defending the actions of these vultures) purely because the parents in question are Chinese and therefore, in your eyes, can do no wrong.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Wed, 16 Mar 2011 12:18 pm

Interesting how the tone of the thread has shifted from "we have as much filial piety as the Chinese" to "the filial piety of the Chinese is repulsive" all because of a news article.

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Postby nakatago » Wed, 16 Mar 2011 12:24 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:Interesting how the tone of the thread has shifted from "we have as much filial piety as the Chinese" to "the filial piety of the Chinese is repulsive" all because of a news article.


quantity != quality

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 16 Mar 2011 12:29 pm

I do not think it changed. It was earlier about general idea, now is about some of the aspects only.

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Postby earthfriendly » Wed, 16 Mar 2011 1:06 pm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/vp/ ... &GT1=43001

79 yo man return to his damaged home after the tsunami and started cleaning up. He wanted to finish up so he could move on and helped others out.

Between the choice of going out and find work to support myself or begging foreign govt for my pension fund, I hope I can make the right decision.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 16 Mar 2011 1:15 pm

Hope I never have to put myself in that sort of position, but having said that, being a ole farmboy does have it's traits so I'm not too worried if I do.

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Postby earthfriendly » Wed, 16 Mar 2011 1:20 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:Interesting how the tone of the thread has shifted from "we have as much filial piety as the Chinese" to "the filial piety of the Chinese is repulsive" all because of a news article.


Please do not turn this into Chinese culture vs non-chinese culture. There is something very wrong about the Chinese govt's request in the news article. On so many levels.

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Postby ev-disinfection » Wed, 16 Mar 2011 1:22 pm

FP is a very general word, different cultures have different traditions.

For me, i would like to call it - Singapore Chinese traditions.
It is part of my brought up, by following the examples of my parents, grandparents... family, on how to treat people with respect, kindness, show forgiveness... my parents would take my grandparents / aunties / uncles out or visit their homes on a regular basis, make sure that their wants and needs are met.
My parents would also take care of my sis and i, provide us with clothes, toys, love, respect and in some poor families, the parents would sometimes take on 2nd jobs to support their immediate and extended family
And having seen and experience all these examples, I have the some sense of knowing how to act towards my parents, family and friends.

and i, in return will follow these examples and hopefully my children will follow them by my example.

But in Singapore, many people do not follow these traditions, with more broken families and singles who don't want to be married.
Here it is a mix of some who practice and some who don't.

I believe in China families, these Chinese traditions are still followed, but with them growing so fast... all these traditions will slowing go away.

That is what FP means to me.

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Postby Mary Hatch Bailey » Wed, 16 Mar 2011 1:43 pm

ev-disinfection wrote:FP is a very general word, different cultures have different traditions.


Agreed. I think what set everyone on edge is that Annie made the huge assumption that filial piety (not a Chinese term or concept in my opinion) is not practiced in the West.

It is not filial piety that drives parents to ask for greater compensation for lost children, it is greed masquerading as filial piety.

Big difference.

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Postby nakatago » Wed, 16 Mar 2011 2:14 pm

Mary Hatch Bailey wrote:
ev-disinfection wrote:FP is a very general word, different cultures have different traditions.


Agreed. I think what set everyone on edge is that Annie made the huge assumption that filial piety (not a Chinese term or concept in my opinion) is not practiced in the West.

It is not filial piety that drives parents to ask for greater compensation for lost children, it is greed masquerading as filial piety.

Big difference.


This.

I should also note that I see the same greed in Filipino families. I wouldn't be surprised if it were present in other Asian cultures as well.

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Postby Mary Hatch Bailey » Wed, 16 Mar 2011 2:54 pm

nakatago wrote:I should also note that I see the same greed in Filipino families.


Yes, and in Russian, American, Cuban, French, Costa Rican, Egyptian, etc. families as well. Greed doesn't care what color your passport is.

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Postby ksl » Wed, 16 Mar 2011 3:47 pm

that drives parents to ask for greater compensation for lost children, it is greed masquerading as filial piety.

If we was talking of the US or Europe, I would tend to agree, though a country that only entered the market economy, not long ago and with such a wide distinction from poor and poorer, with a one child policy. tells me it is natural desperation if the parents are poor farmers, who are exploited.

Though we do not know the backgrounds of these children that have passed away, I still don't figure how the Chinese people should take the verbal diarrhea as greed, when it's obviously a cry of desperation of how they are going to manage.

What actually gets up my nose is the fact that many westerners, just haven't got a clue of Chinese culture, so end up with a tit for tat argument

There is no doubt in my mind, having lived closely in a very tight community of mainland Chinese in Beijing, that FP is very deep, not only within the families, but towards many foreigners too.

Of course there are ass holes in every society, but generally speaking the majority are very poor, there is very little waste of food, when compared to the west, and there is very little waste of finances, as everyone wants an education for their children to improve the families standard of living for all the family.

You cannot compare FP to any western nation it's that simple, unless you go back to Victorian times.

I'm not agreeing with anyone here, I'm just trying to smooth out those tiny judgemental remarks, which I see as inappropriate.

The drive and the ambition by a race like china cannot be controlled over night, the corruption and greed I see every where in the world, not just China, black market goods are produced in the cheapest labour areas, and foreigners buy them, which makes the foreigners funding the black market as bad as the pirates.

One thing for sure is that China is now causing the world great economical problems, by setting up illegal factories in every Country producing and selling fakes it runs into billions of dollars every year.

Even Top Shop is selling off the cat walk copies....So when discussing greed, I think one needs to really look in the mirror and realise that most of us were raised in a competitive market, but have you ever handed over all your money to raise the standards of your whole family.

It is still very normal today for families to share apartments in China and Taiwan and share the cost of living between everyone, this is not typical western way, but with group effort you get strong and powerful with no financial worries knowing that you are all working to achieve something for the whole family. It's a way of life, that westerners really do not comprehend.

Though there used to be a cartoon called the RED RAT I think it was called, based on the philosophy of rich dad poor dad. About the rat race and wealth creation something the west is not geared to do, has it lives on credit.

Most Chinese families build on this philosophy, if all the finance goes into one pot, the whole family works towards wealth creation. Not spending what they do not have to spend. China is a very cash rich place, but it is wisely spent, and gaining assets that make profits for the family is the sole joint venture between families.

If the expected bread winner is the son or daughter, of the parents, that have pumped all their financial wealth into the education has the fundamental basis of family preservation and I say preservation because that's what it is all about. Then it is even more natural that these parents would ask the Chinese government for more compensation.

I don't see the word opportunism being in their minds, when opportunism is the American dream, to put it bluntly and there are no bigger scams, than those that have come out of America, so if we should blame anything on anyone, it is very easy to see, that the American culture spreads over the world, they are the ones that take the lead and every other Country resents the bad influences and likes the good ones (GET RICH) anyway you can. That is not to say all Americans are like that though.

Even the Chinese culture in America and Europe is basically the same when it comes to FP, most of the finance is sent back home to the whole family. Evolution takes time so the FP we had 200 years ago has been much eroded by Country growth and development of the USA.

China's fundamentals are not in place yet, to have the American fever and opportunist moments of greed and scams, but it's getting there. Especially when it means copying to create wealth. :-| means that the demand has always been there by westerners.

I feel desperation when I return to my roots, as the vermin roam the streets at night, back in the 50's 60's and 70's it wasn't like that. Now on the estate were i used to live has Welcome to Chicago, spray painted on the bridge, and all you will see is rappers, crack heads, prostitutes and lazy non workers living off benefits and still working illegal.

The middle class citizens live in there own protected worlds, yet all the poor good hearted respectable people living in these hoods, are the victims on a daily basis, working hard to escape the rat race.

When you have lived that far down the ladder, then you will know what it's like.

Anne is a sentimental dreamer like myself always wishing for my childrens sake that society improves, we all wish it was like the olden days, but the world goes around, it doesn't stand still, though it helps to preserve good traditions.

We also learn to be opportunists at a young age, rather than being criminals, the paths are there, but if you take the wrong path and follow it too long, you will never trust yourself ever again. Ethics and respect do matter though the west has progressed from the 1800's China is just a new happening, so probably FP changes too in depth, has a country developed. I mean old aged people live pretty well in regulated old peoples homes, some have their own 1 room apartments in these homes, you have choice. so the measure of FP is of course different.
Last edited by ksl on Wed, 16 Mar 2011 8:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby k1w1 » Wed, 16 Mar 2011 4:21 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:Interesting how the tone of the thread has shifted from "we have as much filial piety as the Chinese" to "the filial piety of the Chinese is repulsive" all because of a news article.


"All because of a news article"? I would have thought it was because of the inconceivable behaviour of the people who claimed they deserved more financial compensation than others...

The issue with this thread came about when people took offense at the original post claiming that filial peity is unheard of in the West. I don't think the tone has changed at all.

I specifically pointed out to Anne that filial peity is not the all-loving, generously-giving situation she was trying to portray at all, and the expectations placed on children are often huge, even detrimental to the children. There can be deep resentment and frustration, in fact.

This is not practiced (to my knowledge) in my culture, but if anyone in my family needed help, they would get it immediately. I think it gets really annoying hearing that Asian families all take care of each other and Western families just boot each other out into the cold. Right now, my mum is homeless and so is my 85 year old grandfather, after their homes were demolished by the quake. They are both living with my mum's twin sister and her family. There has been no talk of money, and we all know this can go on as long as needed. One of the first things I said to them both was: "come and live with me" as did my cousin and two other aunts. My aunt has asked my grandfather to stay with her permanently and it is unspoken that he could come to any of us who could accomodate him, and very likely will... Is all this filial peity? Maybe, but we don't call it that. We don't call it anything actually.

(Edited to fix my preposterous spelling errors.)
Last edited by k1w1 on Thu, 17 Mar 2011 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Mary Hatch Bailey » Wed, 16 Mar 2011 5:23 pm

k1w1 wrote:
"All because of a news article"? I would have thought it was because of the inconceivable behaviour of the people who claimed they deserved more financial compensation than others...

The issue with this thread came about when people took offense at the original post claiming that filial peity is unheard of in the West. I don't think the tone has changed at all.

I specifically pointed out to Annie that filial peity is not the all-loving, generously-giving situation she was trying to portray at all, and the expectations placed on children are often huge, even detrimental to the children. There can be deep resentment and frustration, in fact.

This is not practiced (to my knowledge) in my culture, but if anyone in my family needed help, they would get it immediately. I think it gets really annoying hearing that Aisan families all take care of each other and Western families just boot each other out into the cold. Right now, my mum is homeless and so is my 85 year old grandfather, after their homes were demolished by the quake. They are both living with my mum's twin sister and her family. There has been no talk of money, and we all know this can go on as long as needed. One of the first things I said to them both was: "come and live with me" as did my cousin and two other aunts. My aunt has asked my grandfather to stay with her permanently and it is unspoken that he could come to any of us who could accomodate him, and very likely will... Is all this filial peity? Maybe, but we don't call it that. We don't call it anything actually.


Well done k1w1, very well done =D>

My thoughts exactly.


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