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Filial Piety Revisited

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Brah
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Postby Brah » Thu, 03 Feb 2011 7:27 pm

I love those

"You doctor yet?"

"Talk to me when you doctor!"

nakatago wrote:TL;DR. that said, Amy chua now has had to emphasize that "how I was humbled by a 13 year old " is part of her book's title.

Also, was kinda hoping for a cat fight. "Son, I am disappoint." /meme reference

:P :twisted:

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Postby tyianchang » Fri, 04 Feb 2011 5:38 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:That IS an image of women in a civilized discussion. They still got clothes on AND they aren't ripped & torn! :cool:


SMS, good job done. ( added - I'd become too hot to handle ) No, I haven't read it and don't miss it either. Indeed, stereotyped versions always get people up and arguing. Amy Chua reminds me of Amy Tan - are Amercian Chinese much like them?
Some stereotypes busting -
1. I,and my Chinese friends were in Porgy and Bess that saw us staying out late into the midnight hours to put the production to finesse.
2. My daughter beat her 7 year old. She played Ibert's Le Petit Ane Blanc at 5 and bowled the adjudicator over. "Terrific!" he thundered. But this was in the UK.
Some annotations - she's gifted. with perfect pitch and can pitch all notesl diminished and augmented notes incl at 5 aurally. I spent time with her on the piano, there were a few little resistences, like " Oh bother! Do have to?" ( continued for fear of losing thread due to heat SMS's created with his Amy Chua ) and I just said, " Yes, we 'll have to get the rhythm connected..." n less than an hour she was playing it all right and she said, " Thank you, mummy. I've got it! I'm glad we played." I don't know how Amy Chua taught her daughter.
In my case, I might have incidentally 'hothoused' my daughter when she was in the womb.
3. Using the word 'garbage' on children amounts to inculcating haughtiness and snobbery towards the nonelites.
Well, some professors. This kind of FP is a tyranny that brought old China to a revolution! But there had been a revival and Confucius reinstated, but I hope, with some modifications - this is not to say, there were no other great scholars who opposed Confucianist ideals in China.
To day, East and West can be complementary rather than conflicting. What a joke?
tyianchang

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Postby sgkenneth » Fri, 04 Feb 2011 9:09 pm

Why should anyone go out of their way to treat the old extra nice?

I am Singaporean and the majority of old Singaporeans I have met are assholes. Miserable, lowly educated, rude, violent etc. Most can't even string together a proper sentence in English despite their entire country running on it.

If you are a decent person, you should have some money in the bank saved up and your children will take care of you. If not, good riddance.

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Postby earthfriendly » Sat, 05 Feb 2011 2:12 am

sgkenneth wrote:
If you are a decent person, you should have some money in the bank saved up and your children will take care of you. If not, good riddance.


Exacto! This is called personal responsibility. You are setting a very good example for your kids by being financially independent. One time I overheard this aunty in void deck whining "at my age I still have to go out and work". Like she's committing a sin. She looked able. There are retired Americans who had to reenter the workforce due to the financial meltdown. There is something to be said about honest day of work rather than asking for handout.

sgkenneth wrote:Why should anyone go out of their way to treat the old extra nice?



Ditto. Nobody should expect respect as a given. There is a thing called accountability. Just like parents expecting kids to obey simply because they are older and wiser? There are parents out there who do more harm than good to their own kids.

My father's mom was a meanie, very feudalistic in her thinking, preferring male grandkids over females and not so nice to her daughter-in-law. And yet my mom reciprocated with kindness and not murmuring a bad word towards her. Kind of dysfunctional relationship. And she took care of her for many years in her old age stricken with stroke as grandma refused to be put in a facility that would be more equipped to handle her condition. It took a toll my my mom as she had to care for 4 kids, made 3 meals a day and help with the shop. Grandma passed away and may she take her ways and era with her. My mom is a lot more open and grateful for having daughters as they are more attentive to parents.

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Postby tyianchang » Sat, 05 Feb 2011 5:08 pm

sgkenneth wrote:Why should anyone go out of their way to treat the old extra nice?

I am Singaporean and the majority of old Singaporeans I have met are assholes. Miserable, lowly educated, rude, violent etc. Most can't even string together a proper sentence in English despite their entire country running on it.

If you are a decent person, you should have some money in the bank saved up and your children will take care of you. If not, good riddance.


Very harsh words. The old in your way would be in a err, jam.
So the logic is, kids respect money more than their parents.
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Postby Brah » Sat, 05 Feb 2011 6:53 pm

"You ask simple question"

"GET LECTURE"

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Postby earthfriendly » Sun, 06 Feb 2011 1:39 am

Image



Lo and behold. Amy Chua is on Time magazine "(Tiger) Mother of The Year".

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Postby tyianchang » Sun, 06 Feb 2011 4:01 pm

How is AC presented? 
FP is about virtue but from whatI'veread of AC here, virtue's not given 
any consideration.
Sorry about the font.
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Postby k1w1 » Mon, 07 Feb 2011 4:52 am

tyianchang wrote:How is AC presented? 
FP is about virtue but from whatI'veread of AC here, virtue's not given 
any consideration.
Sorry about the font.


I think that depends entirely on your definition of virtue.

I have two very close friends in Singapore whom, after many years of friendship, described what filial expectations do to their lives and marriages. The pressure on them is beyond my wildest nightmares. They have paid their parents from their first salary and continue to do this, despite now having children of their own. It is expected and they are guilted into it - it is nothing close to the noble, romanticised picture you are painting. Personally, I do not see there is virtue in complaining to your children that your friends receive more allowance (which suggests this is discussed and even compared with other people) or moaning that your daughter is not filial enough because she did not pay you the full amount of your allowance in the two months that she was at home having just given birth. These things have happened to my friends. You may be interested to know that both these women are now preparing for their retirement so their own children will not need to be financially responsible for them.

I will also point out that while filial peity might be a Chinese term, it is not unique to Chinese culture. Malay families have similar expectations of their children and I'm sure it would happen in other cultures as well. The fact that the MOE is planning to push the concept in primary school curricula suggests to me that this transcends culture and is perhaps more of a social/political issue than anything else.

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 07 Feb 2011 6:09 am

earthfriendly wrote:Lo and behold. Amy Chua is on Time magazine "(Tiger) Mother of The Year".


Ironic, the right-on Time magazine would never give such an accolade to a 'white' American, but because Chua is 'foreign' I expect they feel it is safe, or even edgy and cool, to do so.

Someone remind me how far their circulation has fallen this past decade as they seem desperate?

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Postby Mary Hatch Bailey » Mon, 07 Feb 2011 6:14 am

I think that might have been EF's terminology, not Time Magazine's.

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Postby tyianchang » Mon, 07 Feb 2011 7:32 am

k1w1 wrote:
tyianchang wrote:How is AC presented? 
FP is about virtue but from whatI'veread of AC here, virtue's not given 
any consideration.
Sorry about the font.


I think that depends entirely on your definition of virtue.

Somewhere in the Book of Rites Confucius has an answer about holding on to the indivisible and chucking out the pretense. .

It is expected and they are guilted into it - it is nothing close to the noble, romanticised picture you are painting. Personally, I do not see there is virtue in complaining to your children that your friends receive more allowance (which suggests this is discussed and even compared with other people) or moaning that your daughter is not filial enough because she did not pay you the full amount of your allowance in the two months that she was at home having just given birth. These things have happened to my friends. You may be interested to know that both these women are now preparing for their retirement so their own children will not need to be financially responsible for them.

Whoa! Hang on there - you have totally misinterpreted what I said - it's all there some posts back if you care to read right.
I also pointed out about tyranny and there you are. It's amazing how perceptions can be so misconstrued.
I sympathise with your friends' cases for they sound sad.


I will also point out that while filial peity might be a Chinese term, it is not unique to Chinese culture. Malay families have similar expectations of their children and I'm sure it would happen in other cultures as well. The fact that the MOE is planning to push the concept in primary school curricula suggests to me that this transcends culture and is perhaps more of a social/political issue than anything else. No doubt, the MOE will teach FP ( say, what a coincidence) through CRE where pupils will be given situations to talk about to establish what FP is all about.


We had thrashed out somewhere with Mary that FP is akin to the universal honour thy parents. I have Malay connections so that's not foreign to me . I have no idea what the MOE's coming up with. FP is a cultural norm for Chinese people and it's in their system which is more enduring than social structures that are subject to changes.

Virtue is a cultivation of a beautiful soul. Some people have that naturally and some learn to distinguish what it entails. Virtue is definitely not vulgar but claims to it or having to prove it is for charades.
Regarding your friends, they should have the flexibility to reduce their allowances to their parents as their children make more demands on their income. This is to be expected - no one ever says there's any hard and fast rules for FP which is more than what money can buy in the first instance. It's about the way we talk to our parents - and this draws similarity with English middle class ( and very Victorian ) genteel speak, how we show our considerations etc - niceties of sensitivities which don't hurt anyone.
Not least, when FP is stretched to the edge, wisdom should be applied. I've taken the trouble to reread The Lun Yue today - FP is just one of the concepts underpinning an ideal state or utopia. Of course, I'm not so stupid as to believe we can get there for the gods are jealous.
Last edited by tyianchang on Mon, 07 Feb 2011 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby JR8 » Mon, 07 Feb 2011 7:53 am

tyianchang wrote:
Whoa! Hang on there - you have totally misinterpreted what I said - it's all there some posts back if you care to read right.
I also pointed out about tyranny and there you are. It's amazing how perceptions can be so misconstrued.


Hate to say this but I cannot comprehend c. 80-90% of what you write. Furthermore I understand the majority of others here don't even bother trying as your posts are so convoluted and long winded. Maybe you should consider the likely source of misinterpretations and perceptions?
Last edited by JR8 on Mon, 07 Feb 2011 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby tyianchang » Mon, 07 Feb 2011 8:05 am

tyianchang wrote:
k1w1 wrote:
tyianchang wrote:How is AC presented? 
FP is about virtue but from whatI'veread of AC here, virtue's not given 
any consideration.
Sorry about the font.


I think that depends entirely on your definition of virtue.

Somewhere in the Book of Rites Confucius has an answer about holding on to the indivisible and chucking out the pretense. .

It is expected and they are guilted into it - it is nothing close to the noble, romanticised picture you are painting. Personally, I do not see there is virtue in complaining to your children that your friends receive more allowance (which suggests this is discussed and even compared with other people) or moaning that your daughter is not filial enough because she did not pay you the full amount of your allowance in the two months that she was at home having just given birth. These things have happened to my friends. You may be interested to know that both these women are now preparing for their retirement so their own children will not need to be financially responsible for them.

Whoa! Hang on there - you have totally misinterpreted what I said - it's all there some posts back if you care to read right.
I also pointed out about tyranny and there you are. It's amazing how perceptions can be so misconstrued.
I sympathise with your friends' cases for they sound sad.


I will also point out that while filial peity might be a Chinese term, it is not unique to Chinese culture. Malay families have similar expectations of their children and I'm sure it would happen in other cultures as well. The fact that the MOE is planning to push the concept in primary school curricula suggests to me that this transcends culture and is perhaps more of a social/political issue than anything else. No doubt, the MOE will teach FP ( say, what a coincidence) through CRE where pupils will be given situations to talk about to establish what FP is all about.


We had thrashed out somewhere with Mary that FP is akin to the universal honour thy parents. I have Malay connections so that's not foreign to me . I have no idea what the MOE's coming up with. FP is a cultural norm for Chinese people and it's in their system which is more enduring than social structures that are subject to changes.

Virtue is a cultivation of a beautiful soul. Some people have that naturally and some learn to distinguish what it entails. Virtue is definitely not vulgar but claims to it or having to prove it is for charades.
Regarding your friends, they should have the flexibility to reduce their allowances to their parents as their children make more demands on their income. This is to be expected - no one ever says there's any hard and fast rules for FP which is more than what money can buy in the first instance. It's about the way we talk to our parents - and this draws similarity with English middle class ( and very Victorian ) genteel speak, how we show our considerations etc - niceties of sensitivities which don't hurt anyone.
Not least, when FP is stretched to the edge, wisdom should be applied. I've taken the trouble to reread The Lun Yue today - FP is just one of the concepts underpinning an ideal state or utopia. Of course, I'm not so stupid as to believe we can get there for the gods are jealous.
To add, Mao threw out Confucius for his sexist attitude though what's inherently good cannot be so easily discarded. Perhaps FP is more of a benefit to parents (I'm a parent and I don't get it but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate it. Don't take it the wrong way ). That's why I bring it forth for a discussion. Nothing to do with MOE.
I'm more taken to Chuang Tse ( who said he dreamt he was a butterfly and when he woke up, he wasn't sure if he was Chuan Tse or the butterfly ) and the Dao's my guru.
Drat, I keep tapping the wrong button! [/quote
]
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Postby x9200 » Mon, 07 Feb 2011 8:18 am

k1w1 wrote:I have two very close friends in Singapore whom, after many years of friendship, described what filial expectations do to their lives and marriages. The pressure on them is beyond my wildest nightmares. They have paid their parents from their first salary and continue to do this, despite now having children of their own. It is expected and they are guilted into it - it is nothing close to the noble, romanticised picture you are painting. Personally, I do not see there is virtue in complaining to your children that your friends receive more allowance (which suggests this is discussed and even compared with other people) or moaning that your daughter is not filial enough because she did not pay you the full amount of your allowance in the two months that she was at home having just given birth. These things have happened to my friends. You may be interested to know that both these women are now preparing for their retirement so their own children will not need to be financially responsible for them.


Sounds to me like what we've learnt from one Chinese couple when discussing how MiL treated her and what was demanded after they got married. Different subject very similar modus operandi and underlying social pathology.


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