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Rising anti-foreigner sentiment

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Wind In My Hair
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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 5:51 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Funny you disagree with HDB's assessment of the facts.

SMS, I can't win can I? if I quote the government then I will be called a naive Singaporean who believes everything the gahmen tells me. I do my own thinking and I'm accused of not parroting official figures.

In any case I'm not refuting the data. I acknowledged that 20% of HDB sales are to PRs. I'm merely adding data to point out that comparing the proportion of PRs to citizens (1:6) the proportion of PRs buying HDBs (1:5) is disproportionate. Plus market data suggesting that more PRs are searchin than are actually buying which suggests that PRs are by no means a dormant and negligible segment of the housing market.

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Your population statistics may or may not be a valid point for creating a percentage. What would be more valid is the local vrs PR "Households" as opposed to the total population don't you think?

I couldn't find that data so I'm working with what I have. From what I see I'm the only one here even bothering to try to understand the facts. Everyone else simply denies the possibility that foreigners do have an impact on property prices, for no other reason than you just don't want to believe it.

By the way, I realized my earlier calculation was wrong. 541,000 PRs and 3,230,700 citizens means PRs make up only 14% of the total population eligible for HDBs, which make their 20% of recent transactions even more disproportionate.

But believe what you want. I'm realizing the futility of trying to have a rational discussion here. I don't approve of the anti-foreigner sentiment any of you have to deal with and I'm sorry for it. But I also have an issue with people who believe what they want regardless of facts.

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Postby Strong Eagle » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 5:55 pm

I think expats make a huge difference in property prices, whether they can buy them or not (HDB).

All one has to do is look at property prices in the 1997 crash and the later mini-crash. Repatriated expats cause rentals to fall. HDB prices are not independent of non HDB properties... if private condos fall, HDB must also fall.

Having said that, the current problem has more to do with the government's failure to allocate enough low and mid income housing starts, instead focusing on $1000 to $2000 per square foot condos... how many people can afford to live in one of those?

The other thing I don't understand is this: When one says 'backlash against foreigners' are they talking about ang mo who typically earns the larger dollars and lives in the high dollar places... probably not HDB... or are they talking foreigners from the subcontinent and China... earning far less, and living for a lot less rent per month.

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Wind In My Hair
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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 6:07 pm

longstebe wrote:"On the ground", I like that one.
Or does this come from a personal perspective?
:lol:

Longstebe, I have never hesitated to own my personal opinions. When I say "on the ground" I'm referring comments I overhear in my day to day life.

This, however, is my personal perspective: when expats share your perceptions about locals and the majority agree, you have reason to believe that this view is valid, whether we like it or not. Logically the reverse should hold: that when locals talk about expats and the majority agree, this view is therefore also valid, whether you like it or not.

Anyway the reason I stay away from some local boards is that there is too much personal conviction based on too little fact and logic. I'm realizing that it is no different here, except that the English used is better. Human nature is the same everywhere - people believe what they want.

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Wind In My Hair
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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 6:22 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:I think expats make a huge difference in property prices, whether they can buy them or not (HDB).

All one has to do is look at property prices in the 1997 crash and the later mini-crash. Repatriated expats cause rentals to fall. HDB prices are not independent of non HDB properties... if private condos fall, HDB must also fall.

Having said that, the current problem has more to do with the government's failure to allocate enough low and mid income housing starts, instead focusing on $1000 to $2000 per square foot condos... how many people can afford to live in one of those?

The other thing I don't understand is this: When one says 'backlash against foreigners' are they talking about ang mo who typically earns the larger dollars and lives in the high dollar places... probably not HDB... or are they talking foreigners from the subcontinent and China... earning far less, and living for a lot less rent per month.

Ah SE, the voice of reason. I was starting to despair. At least you're trying to understand the issue instead of fight it blindly.

Yes the government screwed up in planning the housing pipeline and that does not help matters.

I think the resentment against those two groups is of a different type in each case. I'd go into detail except that I'm tired of being jumped on as if I'm the bad guy when I'm just trying to explain why these perceptions exist, under the naive assumption that members of this board really want to know and have an open mind to alternative perspectives.

Perhaps this is a topic for friends over beers instead of an open forum.

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Postby longstebe » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 6:24 pm

Oh dear. Please take my comment with a pinch of salt, hence the smiley face. I liked the term you used, thats all. It sounded very armed forces like.
Happy days anyway.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 6:45 pm

I"m not quite sure why you think we are fighting it blindly. I, for one, am just trying to understand conflicting data. On the one had, HDB is giving us facts (I guess - as factual as we are likely to get - given the nature of the beast) vrs perception vrs figures that range 2.5 times from one another from real estate companies (all just called estimates). As an HDB dweller,

I'm just like the rest of the local (although I am a PR). I like that the value of my property has risen dramatically, but I'd curse somebody if I had to downgrade and probably pay the same or more for a smaller unit. And yes, I'd probably try to blame somebody other than myself wanting to make as much and pay as little as possible. But frankly, I don't think it PR's or Locals driving up the prices. It's just human nature.

SE brought up the 97 financial meltdown. Who drove the prices down? PR's? I doubt it. EP holders? Maybe, because as they left, they left empty condo units and there was nobody to fill them. The locals bought them because they knew they could get inflated prices from MNC's for rentals.

The other thing is something SE mentioned about the tandem fall of private and HDB in the financial meltdown. That hasn't held true with the latest curbs instituted by the government. So that would bear watching.

And yeah, over some beers would be a lot better wouldn't it. Now I'm going to be a good boy and go to my wife's church to listen to her sing for our dinner tonight. A pagan in the parish church! :wink:

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Wind In My Hair
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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 7:12 pm

Yeah I'm being a good girl and going to church too.

My final word on the matter (for now): locals shouldn't resent foreigners, and foreigners shouldn't criticize locals. Then we would have world peace. :D

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Postby carteki » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 7:28 pm

Interesting discussion and some interesting points... Funnily enough one of the things the government hasn't said about the property prices is - "be glad, it means we're in a 1st world country". I've heard the same complaints from the tip of Africa to Europe and the US. property is getting more expensive and it is harder than ever to get on the property ladder.
Having said that there is also something to be said for "holding out" for better prices. There is a new condo block next to the botanic gardens that is only 50% occupied (sold). The developer cannot sell the remaining units at a lower price because of the agreement to the buyers who bought earlier.
If someone feels like doing some digging, Today newspaper had if I remember correctly a quarterly table of property transactions by different populations and segments at the time that the new HDB purchase rules were introduced.

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Postby ksl » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 10:37 pm

Found a couple of interesting explanations of the property market and PR's effect on such. Along with Gahman aims to reduce prices.

Though in the property market you will always find someone willing to pay over the market value, if your property has benefits..... Like amenities and facilities add to that fact that the Chinese are the majority rule and you have increased odds, that a family member wants to live has neighbours and is prepared to pay well for someone to move out.

So even though I have no wish to move at all, I will except a couple of hundred K to move on :lol: So if purchasing HDB, put it up for sale asap, with an unreachable market price for many, and sit tight for the next generation. Who knows that that HDB maybe wanted by someone very close by. It doesn't matter if the place is not sold either, has there as never been any plan to move. Opportunity Cost is relative to those that are in need (want to be neighbours with relatives) only the business minded people would ever contemplate the idea of selling at a price, knowing full well, that someone may just pay the price because of need.

My thought of the Bishan HDB that made a record sale of 200K over the market price, made me think that, the purchase was made for a very specific reason of need by the buyer, well above the normal utilities and surrounding area. More likely to be next door to a family member, parent or such.

I think WIMH is doing a great job on this interesting subject. Though reading the links appear to show, that it's locals that move the HDB price up and PR's have no alternative but to pay and not many did in comparison to locals.

http://trulysingapore.wordpress.com/2009/10/

HDB resale:
http://hdbresale.sg/

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Postby Mad Scientist » Sun, 12 Dec 2010 1:16 am

Methinks, being a Singaporean, the 5 Cs that were/are always on Sgers mind affects their rationale thinking too.
Apart from that , Sgers have nothing to grapple onto except for their savings/CPF and most of them their 'private property" albeit HDB apartment. Like all market, it is about supply and demand , and this is the one that pushes the price up or down.
Sgers has about S$ 1 million disposable cash on average based on 2010 survey. Apart from managed funds, casino, property will be their next place to invest.
There is no denying the facts and data that WIMH, KSL , X9200 , SMS brought which are all valid and true. It maybe doctored or otherwise but the facts remain the resentments are growing.
Sgers will cry foul at the smallest hint of unfair playing field.
Foreigners will cry foul for they have no choice to pay high price in rent
PRs will cry foul too as they squeeze in between the two.
On one part SG needs the FTs, on the other hand trying to appease the local sentiment. It will never be a marriage in heaven as the reality is LAND IS VERY SCARCE in Singapore.
The Housing Development Minister(MBT) has to take some of this flaks as he is the wise guy and leeky favourite's "son".
Everywhere he went he created ingenious way to add on to the gahmen coffers.
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Postby Muslima70 » Wed, 15 Dec 2010 12:02 pm

donova.n wrote:the locals sure arent very happy from those post :(
is the unemployment that bad? i knew that job competitive is a global issue but i didnt expect it to be so hostile over here. am i missing something?


No the locals do not hate expats....but the employment part well I guess most local singaporeans are feeling the pinch because job market is definitely more competitive now.

still compettion is coming from all kinds of foriegners be it from china, india or bangladesh...not just the steroetype "ang moh" that SG pple used to consider as expats .

And I admit that most foriegners do provide manpower for jobs that most Singaporeans are too proud or too lazy to fulfill..especialy cleaning jobs.

As for me, the way I look at it, if I want to remain employed I have to be willing to do what it takes to remain employed in terms of working hard and working smart. And also upgrading if I can afford to. Blaming the "foriegn talent" doesn't help me remain competitive.

I can be wrong but I think, most sensible Singaporeans also have a similar mindset. Also culture wise coming from a Malay/Indian heritage I know that most locals who are from Indian/Malay culture tend to feel more open and friendly with other races..it just our culture.

I can't speak for chinese culture but maybe Chinese culture is a bit more reserved and may give expats the impression that they are aloof? and since Singapore is 80% chinese it may give expats that feeling.
Still most of my own chinese friends and colleagues are nice people..including my own chinese neighbour..so I think it may just a wrong impression.

and I have never known any Singaporean of any race to be unkind or hate expats just for the sake of hating them. I am not saying there aren't any..but I think most Singaporeans do not hate foreigners.

Most kids in local schools nowadays have at least one "foreign" friend cos so many foreigners become PR now or work here for a long time. I know cos I work in local school and interact with kids daily.

Anyway more and more countries are becoming a global village. It is not simply Singapore..most nations are becoming "rojak" anyways cos people are are moving around all the time and working in many different countries..it is illogical to expect any country to only contain "local " people. What did Hercules say? Nothing remains constant except change" well something like that anyway...
Salam(peace be with you)

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Postby MauMau » Wed, 15 Dec 2010 4:22 pm

I can't speak for others. I'm going to retire in JB. Gelang patah, 2 storey house, RM330k, gated community.

=> about S$140.00... that less then a brand new BMW320i.

By that time, I don't see the point of living in Singapore. better brush up on my gardening skills.

Someone mentioned earlier that I started this thread as a troll.

Oh behave.

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Postby JayCee » Wed, 15 Dec 2010 4:57 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:
longstebe wrote:Thats fair comment WIMH but your message comes across that only foreigners commit this terrible act. Are the male Singapore's more considerate and never do this?

I knew your 'interest' concealed a hidden agenda ;). Yes local men do this too of course. I'd love to have the numbers but the perception on the ground is that expats do it in greater numbers and much more blatantly. Many decent girls won't date expat men becauses the chances that he is a player is just that much higher.


Yeah, because those dodgy Karaoke bars that are spread all over Singapore are full of expat men :roll:

As for doing it more blatantly, that must be a joke as you see old uncles and various seedy looking local guys hanging around outside Karaoke bars smoking cigarettes with 'hostesses' all over this island, I wouldn't call that discrete.

I realise that YOU weren't saying all expat men are like that and it's just a perception that other locals may have, but it does back up the view that locals are xenophobic if this is the general view based on a minority of white boys that might shag around a bit.

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 15 Dec 2010 5:17 pm

Muslima70 wrote:What did Hercules say?


Probably first thing he said was 'Pssst... you spell my name Heraclitus'

:wink:

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longstebe
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Postby longstebe » Wed, 15 Dec 2010 5:46 pm

MauMau wrote:I can't speak for others. I'm going to retire in JB. Gelang patah, 2 storey house, RM330k, gated community.

=> about S$140.00... that less then a brand new BMW320i.

By that time, I don't see the point of living in Singapore. better brush up on my gardening skills.

Someone mentioned earlier that I started this thread as a troll.

Oh behave.



Just out of curiosity, are you posting in the right thread?


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