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Rising anti-foreigner sentiment

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sundaymorningstaple
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 10:53 am

Actually that is an interesting question. How many foreigners use local girls for sex? But at the same time, it would be interesting to know how many local girls use sex to try to find a ticket to a better/different life? :-|

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Postby x9200 » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 11:22 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:I wouldn't take anything quoted by a real estate firm as the gospel, would you? I even have my doubts about the info from Government agencies but I'd put more into the article as it was through either HDB or SingStat (wish I could find it and quote it). But if you wanna say 20 or 30 %, go ahead. We'll just have to agree to disagree. It's strange that 3 realtors come up with three different estimates. All are based only on their own sales I reckon.

Will this help?
http://askhdb.hdb.gov.sg/Home/hybrid/Th ... gory%3D606

Q: What is the impact of Permanent Residents (PRs) and foreigner influx on the public housing market? Have they driven up prices, COVs and rents?

A:Only Singaporean households are eligible for new HDB flats and our generous housing subsidies. Unlike citizen households, PRs cannot apply for new flats or enjoy any subsidies. Foreigners can only rent flats or rooms and are not allowed to own flats.

PRs are not behind high COVs

Citizens form the majority of resale transactions. PRs constituted about 1 in 5 of all resale transactions in 2009, similar to that in recent years. PR households own slightly less than 5% of all HDB households. Resale prices are influenced by various factors, such as economic growth and market sentiments. Hence, the increase in resale prices could not be attributed to PR buyers.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 11:27 am

That's the one! It was also published in the local birdcage liner a while back. I knew I wasn't getting senile! I got the percentages wrong though, they are at max, 5% more that what I thought. 1 out of five isn't gonna change anything unless the owner is holding out for more COV. Thanks!

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 11:39 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:I wouldn't take anything quoted by a real estate firm as the gospel, would you? I even have my doubts about the info from Government agencies but I'd put more into the article as it was through either HDB or SingStat (wish I could find it and quote it). But if you wanna say 20 or 30 %, go ahead. We'll just have to agree to disagree. It's strange that 3 realtors come up with three different estimates. All are based only on their own sales I reckon.

Yes they are obviously based on sales figures, but these reflect the state of the resale market, and housing agents have no vested interest in distorting the figures. X9200's link of 1 in 5 being PR is a 20% rate. Are you still saying that a fifth of the market has no impact on prices?

Have a look at this chart which shows a 0.93 correlation (1 being perfect correlation) between HDB resale prices and the number of foreigners and PRs in Singapore. You can pooh pooh statistics all you like but they are trickier to explain away than mere opinions.

Mad Scientist wrote:I find this discussion intriguing and fascinating. I think this FT issues goes beyond HDB or private housing. It has more to it that one can meet the eye.

MS, you understand the issue well. Yes there are many nuances that are hard to describe and impossible to measure. Housing prices are one of the few that can be quantified and very close to the Singaporean's heart so it makes up part of the picture and to deny its relevance defies logic.

longstebe wrote:WIMH, just out of interest, can you elaborate on your comment about the foreigners using local women for sex.

By local women I don't mean prostitutes or SPGs who are willing parties to one night stands, but the girl next door who is innocent enough to have her heart broken when she finds out that her 'boyfriend' is equally charming to many other women and sleeping with them all. I just don't like seeing this happen, that's all.

JR8 wrote:But then you are suggesting that characterising a behaviour is not acceptable. I disagree. There is a big difference between simply highlighting a national habit, and 'damning the entire population'. Unless you are a typically thin skinned Singaporean of course :wink:

I be a typically thin skinned Singaporean, and you be a typically rude obnoxious expat. Live and let live :in love: :P

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Postby longstebe » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 11:59 am

Thats fair comment WIMH but your message comes across that only foreigners commit this terrible act. Are the male Singapore's more considerate and never do this?

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 12:09 pm

longstebe wrote:Thats fair comment WIMH but your message comes across that only foreigners commit this terrible act. Are the male Singapore's more considerate and never do this?

I knew your 'interest' concealed a hidden agenda ;). Yes local men do this too of course. I'd love to have the numbers but the perception on the ground is that expats do it in greater numbers and much more blatantly. Many decent girls won't date expat men becauses the chances that he is a player is just that much higher.

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Postby x9200 » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 12:18 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:Yes they are obviously based on sales figures, but these reflect the state of the resale market, and housing agents have no vested interest in distorting the figures. X9200's link of 1 in 5 being PR is a 20% rate. Are you still saying that a fifth of the market has no impact on prices?

May have, or may have not.

Have a look at this chart which shows a 0.93 correlation (1 being perfect correlation) between HDB resale prices and the number of foreigners and PRs in Singapore. You can pooh pooh statistics all you like but they are trickier to explain away than mere opinions.

It may be such correlation but the chart simply compares two specific trends and that's it. I bet there are hundreds of such highly correlated trends with no PRs involved. In other words, sorry, this chart does not prove your point. It is much too complex to prove it this way. This kind of graph is a pure manipulation via statistics using two dimensional matrix to show something multidimensional in nature. I.e. probably (my educated guess) plotting the increase of Indian population over recent years against the reseal prices would give you also two highly correlated trends. Does it meant that all this is because of the Indians?

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Postby EADG » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 12:29 pm

Lotsa tired stereotypes and persecution complexes bubbling up on a thread that by title alone is a baiting. Surprised it went as far as it did.

I'm with you on this one SMS.

I'm sure you can find dirt on any two factions if you look for it, whingers are everywhere.
Ape Shall Not Kill Ape

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 12:32 pm

I just checked the national statistics. There are 3,230,700 citizens and 541,000 PRs in Singapore. PRs thus make up 16.7% of the total group eligible for HDB flats. Yet they account for 20% of recent purchases, which makes sense given that many PRs were granted this status recently. The facts tell me that PRs have a disproportionate impact on the HDB housing market, contrary to those who wish to think otherwise.

Listen, there is nothing wrong with accepting that foreigners are driving up property prices. This is something we just have to accept, along with other consequences like trains becoming more crowded. This is the price of growth, and does not mean we need to want to kick foreigners out. We just have to deal with it.

It's an entirely different matter to bury our heads in the sand and pretend it just isn't happening. I'm baffled by this resistance to looking at what the numbers tell us.

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Postby longstebe » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 12:34 pm

"On the ground", I like that one.
Or does this come from a personal perspective?
:lol:

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 1:07 pm

Funny you disagree with HDB's assessment of the facts. I'll agree that there is an impact by PR's. It has made the normally kiasu Singaporean even MORE kiasu and holding out to sell at a higher COV which forces the PR or the local to pay more if he wants a place to live. The local buyer on the other hand probably has a place to live and is either upgrading or living with their parents and don't pay any rent per se (sure they contribute to the household but you understand what I'm saying). The PR is probably already being ripped off by a local Landlord on rent just like the EP holder is. Therefore they are forced to either pay a premium to buy or continue to get ripped off in the rental market. If they want a place to live they have to deal with the locals. Nobody is forcing the local to sell to a PR. They do that of their own free will. I don't know why people have such a hard time understanding that. :?

Your population statistics may or may not be a valid point for creating a percentage. What would be more valid is the local vrs PR "Households" as opposed to the total population don't you think? Especially considering the low, low, fertility rate here.

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Postby reflction » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 1:20 pm

There is another angle beyond facts and figures of the economy. I've come back from overseas where I lived for over 5 years. Whilst there, i have received my fair share of racism/anti-foreigner resentment. Encounters in this vein, were always unpleasant. The sentiment was if foreigners did not like it here, they should just bugger off back where they came from. I wondered why the people were so intolerant and quick to stereotype.

And then I came back to Singapore. I see a forum set up by people living here that make fun of Singaporeans and our language. I get on a bus needing to ask the driver directions only to find that the driver is a foreigner who does not speak English. I have Causasian & European friends who still cant tell the difference between a local (malay) and a thai/filipino/burmese, just based on physical attributes. Or a local Chinese from a PRC either. And when they see some of these people behaving badly, they immediately think it's a local, when it's not.

I don't agree with racism/anti-foreigner sentiments, but what I am saying is now that I am back, I understand WHY there are stereo-types, why certain groups are viewed differently. I am NOT saying it is right, just that I understand why and how it has come about. At the end of the day, if you come to someone's country, there are rules, laws and cultural things to respect and adhere too. Unfortunately, those of us who are respectful and aware of these do not make a memorable impression as those of us who don't, because let's face it, we remember unpleasant encounters more than a normal, courteous encounter which is expected and shown by those of us who are normal.

I believe that this resentment originally stems from everday life and encounters, not just the economical situations or facts & figures.

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Postby ksl » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 4:23 pm

Be it Singapore, UK, USA or Timbuktu, it doesn't really matter! Think of it like this, remove all foreigners from Singapore and what have you got left?

Now tell me the problems are cured! Far from it, I'm afraid!

So no matter how long Singaporeans live in other Countries and feel a little disrespect and abuse. You will still have it in your own Country!

I'm quite taken aback, being Caucasian, when i meet Singaporeans that actually talk very badly about other Singaporeans, because their race is different.

The problems still arise because integration takes much longer than 50 years, or even a 100 years, combine the period with bigotry variables and you are back to the start!

Sorry but my wise old backside tells me life will never be any different, as long as I myself can mix with all races, is all that matters. If a person has the wrong perception of a race or even the wrong perception of a person of the same race, it demonstrates the unwillingness to mix with others because of these perceptions.

There are good and bad in all societies and it will always be, though it is the thought of loosing something, that triggers the perception.

Is the government doing too much for the foreigner, or too little for the locals? Finding the balance is not an easy task, but discontentment shows the weight of the scales have been in favour of the foreigner, growth and development at the cost of local discontentment in numbers...It's when these numbers increase and work together for reform, that something needs government attention.

The name calling and insults will always be used by people that use them, no matter what race or colour, the lack of manners, education and tolerance is everywhere in the world.

One can also blame the media for much of the sensationalism when it comes to race and unpleasantness, as seen in the NEW PAPER yesterday, as the 2 meter tall Caucasian apprehends a female pickpocket. With a front page headline of "HUGE MAN ATTACKS LOCAL FEMALE" This as got to be the opposition party newspaper wanting to get publicity and incite discontentment against foreigners.

I do hope the gahman censors pay a visit to the journalist and editor for trying to cause incitement!

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Postby longstebe » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 4:45 pm

On the money Ksl.
It goes on everywhere. Learn to live with it.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sat, 11 Dec 2010 5:47 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Funny you disagree with HDB's assessment of the facts.

SMS, I can't win can I? if I quote the government then I will be called a naive Singaporean who believes everything the gahmen tells me. I do my own thinking and I'm accused of not parroting official figures.

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Your population statistics may or may not be a valid point for creating a percentage. What would be more valid is the local vrs PR "Households" as opposed to the total population don't you think?

I couldn't find that data so I'm working with what I have. From what I see I'm the only one here even bothering to try to understand the facts. Everyone else simply denies the possibility that foreigners do have an impact on property prices, for no other reason than you just don't want to believe it.

By the way, I realized my earlier calculation was wrong. 541,000 PRs and 3,230,700 citizens means PRs make up only 14% of the total population eligible for HDBs, which make their 20% of recent transactions even more disproportionate.

But believe what you want. I'm realizing the futility of trying to have a rational discussion here. I don't approve of the anti-foreigner sentiment any of you have to deal with and I'm sorry for it. But I also have an issue with people who believe what they want regardless of facts.


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