PR Rejected - who is really making these decisions?

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wailing_imam
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PR Rejected - who is really making these decisions?

Post by wailing_imam » Wed, 08 Dec 2010 7:56 pm

I am a UK citizen, mid 30s, in my second stint in Singapore. In between stints I worked for a Singaporean company in Shanghai and Suzhou.

I am married to a Singaporean and have a Singaporean child.

Both of us are educated to degree level.

However, this is still not enough for me to get a PR it seems.

I wonder which clowns are making these decisions. Are they educated? Are they being thorough? Are there racial quotas.

I have appealed and am waiting for their reply. I find the whole process rather opaque and would actually like to argue my case face to face with someone rather than receiving these empty letters and notes with no information about which criteria I still need to fulfill.

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Post by sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 08 Dec 2010 11:24 pm

It is deliberately made opaque. This keeps the government with the upper hand. It also keeps them from getting tailor made applications. They are a lot smarted than one thinks.

I actually think they are finally wising up. There are too many PR abusers by far and in addition to cutting back on the granting of PR due to complaints from the ground, they are realizing that most PR have no plans to eventually take up citizenship but are only using it as a stepping stone and to avoid visa problems if they lose their positions later. A lot are taking up PR if for no other reason than to purchase HDB flats and partake of the few subsidies that haven't been cut due to PR abuse.

You did not indicate your race You did specify you were a citizen of the UK but you did not indicate whether you were a citizen by birth or by naturalization. Certain races here are currently oversubscribed and the PR levels far exceed the ethnic proportions that the government wants to keep. Unless your degree/experience is in a "highly" desirable, much needed because there are no suitably qualified locals, you might have a problem. You also didn't indicate if the child was male or female or how long you have been married. Lot's of room for misinterpretation, with so many unanswered variables, it would be hard to try to pinpoint a single reason as there could be numerous ones.
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Re: PR Rejected - who is really making these decisions?

Post by JayCee » Thu, 09 Dec 2010 4:39 pm

SMS - would the fact that the OP has had 2 stints in Singapore make a difference in your opinion. If I was a government official I'd be thinking if this person has left once then they may leave again, and that's not what PR is intended for. Obviously it would depend on the length of each of the stints

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sundaymorningstaple
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Post by sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 09 Dec 2010 6:07 pm

That was my first thought. The realized he went overseas with a Singaporean company. Still, it would have to be something to consider along with the other unknowns.
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Post by wailing_imam » Thu, 09 Dec 2010 7:25 pm

My child is a male. He has dual citizenship UK - Singaporean. I was born in the UK. I am a lecturer. My first stint here was for 2 years, this is my second, and I am one and a half years in.

The fact of the matter does not concern skills and jobs, it is about giving someone the right to settle here and partake in life as part of a Singaporean family. The private housing market here is tiny, and therefore the average Singapore family has little choice but to invest in a government owned HDB property. If my wife moves to the UK, she immediately gets a 5 year settlement visa, can work wherever she wants, and buy whatever property she wants. (I do of course understand the housing situation here, and think HDB estates work perfectly for Singapore. There are a shortage of HDB units on the market, they are bloody expensive and the number of Singaporeans I have met cheating the system is incredible.)

I have met far too many people here who have been given PR status who ahve had little connection to the country and its people. One of my acquaintances, a UK citizen without a degree, has a PR through virtue of his wife also a UK citizen with a well paid job. Both these PRs hate Singapore and are itching to leave. They have recently sold their condo and made SGD400,000 profit. This money will of course be taken out of the country and put into the UK economy.

Now it seems here the government are not very adept at identifying those who are likely to stay in the country for some time and actually contribute to the economy.

Therefore, who are these clowns who check over the forms? Why don't they tighten the restrictions entirely for PR applications, or include some kind of interview. It is those of us who actually want to stay, have a family and contribute to the economy who are being penalised.

So, are there racial quotas? I wonder where white males stand alongside mainland Chinese females on this quota?

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Post by sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 09 Dec 2010 9:10 pm

White males are under "Others" in the scheme of things. "Others" make up slightly less than 2% of the population. Therefore, it takes very few to make to make up a quote for any given period. Indians were let in with relatively large numbers for the past couple of years due to IT skillsets. Unfortunately, now there are a dearth of Indian PR's most of which have absolutely no intentions of taking up PR, rather, they tend to try to "collect" PR's. That why you see posts here about them being out of the country for 4 years and now come back for one year and find out they need at least 3 years tax return to be considered to get their re-entry permit renewed. The other thing they look at is if you are not Asian, will you be able to assimilate. I'm assuming, with an Asian wife, that shouldn't be a real problem.

So, at the end of the day, apply for PR, when it's rejected, go to ICA and request an appeal or at least a 4 eye meeting with an immigration "Officer" (not a line clerk). If you are a teacher you shouldn't have too much of a problem clearing that hurdle.

It's everything about skillsets and/or family ties. Nobody has the"right" to settle where they would like. The right belongs to the country and it's government. Surely you know that. The fact is that you married a Singaporean woman (probably here in Singapore). IF it was here in Singapore you were made to sign a statement to the effect that the marriage will not be a route to PR. I know. I signed one myself. It took me three years of appeals and some outside help to get it. I had two kids, boy & girl both with dual citizenship. Today, my son is preparing to enter NS (he's my youngest - now 21).
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Re: PR Rejected - who is really making these decisions?

Post by Mad Scientist » Fri, 10 Dec 2010 7:06 am

To answer your question

[quote="wailing_imam"

I wonder which clowns are making these decisions.
Yes, depends on how you look at them

Are they educated?
Yes, BIG YES

Are they being thorough?
Yes, Very Thorough and MORE

Are there racial quotas.
Yes, BIG Yes

I have appealed and am waiting for their reply. I find the whole process rather opaque and would actually like to argue my case face to face with someone rather than receiving these empty letters and notes with no information about which criteria I still need to fulfill.[/quote]

Have patience and persevere. My brother's wife got her PR after 5 years on LTSVP and on top of that they have 3 boys born overseas and one in Singapore. He is an ex cop and still have to wait that long. This was sometime back . Way before the influx of foreing talent.
Read this http://www.singstat.gov.sg/stats/themes ... ef2010.pdf

I do not see the point of seeing the officer in person as it will only goes into one file ref. no. Most of the time if you are lucky the officer cannot even string a sentence or two in English!! Even the Commissioner of Oath officer does not even understand the prevailing amended laws!!
Going to the MP might help but I do not want you to count your eggs before it hatches
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Post by wailing_imam » Fri, 10 Dec 2010 7:21 am

Thanks for your input. My anger has somewhat subsided now, and I am going to look at this philosophically.

Ganbei!

WI

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Post by Saint » Fri, 10 Dec 2010 9:08 am

Just to show how dramatically things have changes over the last few years concerning granting PR, this was my situation nearly 3 years ago.

UK Citizen
Singaporean wife
Married for 4 years (Singapore marriage cert)
No children
Living in UK
Never worked in Singapore
Wife hadn't paid any tax/CPF for previous 3 years

My PR was granted within 2 months.

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Post by Seasoul » Fri, 31 Dec 2010 4:59 pm

I think they just give/refuse without any great consideration, unfortunately. I truely believe it;s a matter of timing and luck, And that's it. The rest is just a smoke screen to make you think there is some kind of super logic behind it. But really, when you listen to real stories, and just look around you in the expat community, there are so many discrepancies that you soon realize there is no logic to it.
Apply, cross your fingers. Didn't get it ? Appeal. Didn't get it ? Wait until you can re-apply again. And don;t bother over thinking it, or planning around it: just assume you're not going to get it, if you do you'll feel...lucky :)

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Post by carteki » Fri, 31 Dec 2010 7:16 pm

But there are still exceptions - I met a UK couple over the holidays who took up PR here 5 years ago and moved to Dubai 2 weeks later where they have been ever since. They are planning on moving back to the UK in April as his job in Dubai is complete YET they got a 5 year renewal to their REP 6 months ago based on the fact that they would "like" to return to Singapore (they did at least put the effort into doing the renewal IN PERSON, but they have nothing to show - no property, no investments, no cpf and adult children). It was very difficult not to tell them that they're selfish B*ds as they are making everyone elses life more difficult.
Last edited by carteki on Mon, 10 Jan 2011 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PR Rejected - who is really making these decisions?

Post by boliaopeople » Mon, 10 Jan 2011 10:29 pm

wailing_imam wrote:I am a UK citizen, mid 30s, in my second stint in Singapore. In between stints I worked for a Singaporean company in Shanghai and Suzhou.

I am married to a Singaporean and have a Singaporean child.

Both of us are educated to degree level.

However, this is still not enough for me to get a PR it seems.

I wonder which clowns are making these decisions. Are they educated? Are they being thorough? Are there racial quotas.

I have appealed and am waiting for their reply. I find the whole process rather opaque and would actually like to argue my case face to face with someone rather than receiving these empty letters and notes with no information about which criteria I still need to fulfill.
Sorry to hear that your PR application was rejected. You will have a better chance if you are Chinese from China or Indian from India. They don't like 'ang moh' so much because 'ang moh' have too much opinion and dare to speak up.

They are looking for PRs who will be a singaporean and also support them. not PRs who will be a singaporean and go against them... you know who they are :)

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Post by ecureilx » Tue, 11 Jan 2011 12:03 pm

Maybe off topic, but when people whine about PR being rejected - as it happened to me twice, I also look at the other end of the deal: like countries where it is so transparent, that if you qualify, and you are not given PR, you sue the country .. and then, once you get in as a PR, based on your technical skills, the first thing you do is stop your profession (say doctor) and become a part time sales agent for insurance ..

I was told that almost half of migrants to UK do that, and the government is powerless to choose the people who will not just become residents, but also continue to contribute and in UK Law, filtering based on behaviour leads to Human Rights violation .. so here I go, for example, I become a UK citizen based on my past track record as a Doctor, and as I get my citizenship, I decide that I have made enough money and time to relax, and buy a small farm, and stop my profession. Can the immigration do anything ? NO - because you are a citizen. What does the country gain ? Nothing, and possibly somebody who can start eating on the welfare, as he is not only a citizen, but also knows his rights .. and then the natives start to whine that the country has become a retirement home for 'new citizens'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... douts.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rs-58.html

Nah: I am not a politican, but some things work for Singapore, and with such a small country, and people can throw tantrums for rejected PR, then there is something that is pulling people to get mad for the rejection: How many of us here would die to get PR in, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, Vietnam, comparing to Singapore ??

My 2 cents: and when I hear people crying out loud that the system is not transparent, and it must be transparent .. no comments .. and yes, I too had to fight for my PR - and one casual chat with an MP told me all I had to know ..

Cheers

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Re: PR Rejected - who is really making these decisions?

Post by ecureilx » Tue, 11 Jan 2011 12:08 pm

wailing_imam wrote: I wonder which clowns are making these decisions. Are they educated? Are they being thorough? Are there racial quotas.
This is the kind of attitude that Singapore needs .. :D :D Welcome to Singapore - I would personally write a letter recommending your application, if I could do (no sir, I am not from any agency and that was a tongue in cheek comment)

If you have bothered to do some integration here, and worked with the government staff, they are not clowns - they are quite qualified and capable and while many would dispute it - are very dedicated to their jobs

I know an ICA officer, and she has been in ICA since her Masters in UK, and she has turned down enough job offers and happy to work for the Government

And so is the friend of mine who is in CNB - you got to step out, see the sun, and step down from your high priest pedestal - and you will not make such comments after that

Cheers

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Post by PhantomX » Sat, 22 Jan 2011 7:50 pm

wailing_imam wrote:Thanks for your input. My anger has somewhat subsided now, and I am going to look at this philosophically.

Ganbei!

WI
Getting a PR is not a right. Guidelines for Grant of PR change with planned or unplanned changes to Immigration policies which are thoughtfully worked out like in all other countries on political, demographic, social and other prevailing and topical issues of concern to the government and of course those governed ie the electorate. If you have been current with the media in recent years, the latter are figuring much more importantly in policy planning in the current political climate of the day, much more so given the planned polls before the half year is out. So those who may have qualified in previous set of guidelines may not necessarily do so now. And if they do on the face of it do, there would be a fair amount of discretion given to the approving officer to highlight certain critieria more onerously than others in their running through of the approval process.
What's more... no reason need be given for rejections as would be the case in most other jurisdictions.
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