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Post by Addadude » Tue, 04 Jan 2011 6:31 pm

baba_ali wrote:Simple.
Er.

No.

That has got to be about the poorest, most weakly rationalised, circular-logic-based "explanations" I've ever read here. (Which is saying something!)

According to the Baba_ali Equation, (Rudeness = Efficiency) the reason I get to enjoy crappy pizzas 24-hours a day is because practicing good manners quite simply wastes time.

The examples you give - helping an old lady across the road and helping a sister with her homework are complete nonsense and I won't dignify them with a response.

Are you a regular at SammyBoy or the 3-in-1 Kopitiam by any chance?
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Post by baba_ali » Tue, 04 Jan 2011 6:44 pm

Addadude wrote:
baba_ali wrote:Simple.
Er.

No.

That has got to be about the poorest, most weakly rationalised, circular-logic-based "explanations" I've ever read here. (Which is saying something!)

According to the Baba_ali Equation, (Rudeness = Efficiency) the reason I get to enjoy crappy pizzas 24-hours a day is because practicing good manners quite simply wastes time.

The examples you give - helping an old lady across the road and helping a sister with her homework are complete nonsense and I won't dignify them with a response.

Are you a regular at SammyBoy or the 3-in-1 Kopitiam by any chance?
If you don't like Singapore so much , may one ask why are you here?

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Post by poodlek » Tue, 04 Jan 2011 6:46 pm

baba_ali wrote: You do realised the difference between doing something for survival and love right? If all Canadians do what they love , would things have changed? Probably not. If Singaporeans do what they love , who is going to fill in the blanks? Such as cleaning toilets and so on. In Singapore , you fit the system , elsewhere the system fits you.

Can you guarantee that North American will do the project within 10 hours? If not we kill him? If this sounds extreme , then think about Singapore. If Singapore roads aren't spotless clean and everything else is same as Malaysia , all the companies would move there. Then you won't be in Singapore at all.
In my husband's company, they employ many Singaporeans in jobs at which they are completely incompetent, (not to mention unqualified wrt technical skills). The only reason they are there is because they are Singaporean and they have a bachelors or masters degree. So yes, I can guarantee that the right North American (or European, or Indian or Chinese), even one without accreditation could get their jobs done much faster and with fewer mistakes. The only reason a Singaporean can't do it is because the technical training for such a job does not exist here. Everyone wants to be banker or executive, so that's what they train for. It's ridiculous. That's just one company here, but I've been told that this is pretty much how things work here. Hard work is much more valued over smart work. It seems even that the output is not as important as the image and idea that "here are a lot of people working REALLY hard."

At one point someone pointed out to my husband's boss that the marketing for their project was getting terrible results--which means it was completely ineffective. The boss' response was that "our marketing department is working very well. We spent over $2 million dollars so far this year." :???: How they can not see that their input is not coming close to equalling their output is beyond me. The important thing to them is that it looks like they're doing something.

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Post by poodlek » Tue, 04 Jan 2011 6:50 pm

baba_ali wrote:
poodlek wrote:
Addadude wrote: I've been trying to follow your train of thought - and ended up completely lost.

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Are you saying that politeness, kindness and civilised behaviour = inefficiency?
I think that's exactly what he's saying. Except as a customer here in Singapore I expect my ice cream to come late because that's just the way customer service works here :-P
And it's not because the ice cream server was helping an old lady, it's because his boss didn't teach him how to serve the ice cream quickly. Like SMS said in another thread, why bother, they're never coming back anyway!
See if the shop got customer service problem , it should not be existing at all. I don't get it. You sounds like every ice-cream shop got problem. Then go another shop! vote with your dollar and sooner or later only the best will survive.

And if the service is bad , tell your friends and post on facebook and write to newspaper! Whats stopping you?
LOL! I'm just another angry ang moh! The service is poor across the board. It *is* every proverbial ice cream shop. It's not even worth complaining about. I praise good service the few times I get it. When I do get good service it's quite noticeable because it's far from the norm. I could probably count the places that offer good service on one hand, and I've been here for 10 months.

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Post by JR8 » Tue, 04 Jan 2011 7:06 pm

poodlek wrote: And it's not because the ice cream server was helping an old lady, it's because his boss didn't teach him how to serve the ice cream quickly. Like SMS said in another thread, why bother, they're never coming back anyway!
Bwahahaha! 8-)

Nak: This will quickly degenerate into something ugly...
I just know it will.

Yep, but then sometimes it just invites it don't you think? Maybe the forum should have it's own version of Godwin's Law, you know, when everything descends into the usual mayhem :lol:

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Post by JR8 » Tue, 04 Jan 2011 7:09 pm

baba_ali wrote:
Addadude wrote:
baba_ali wrote:Simple.
Er.

No.

That has got to be about the poorest, most weakly rationalised, circular-logic-based "explanations" I've ever read here. (Which is saying something!)

According to the Baba_ali Equation, (Rudeness = Efficiency) the reason I get to enjoy crappy pizzas 24-hours a day is because practicing good manners quite simply wastes time.

The examples you give - helping an old lady across the road and helping a sister with her homework are complete nonsense and I won't dignify them with a response.

Are you a regular at SammyBoy or the 3-in-1 Kopitiam by any chance?
If you don't like Singapore so much , may one ask why are you here?

THIS is this forums equivalent of Godwin's law! You couldn't make it up.... hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:

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Post by poodlek » Tue, 04 Jan 2011 7:11 pm

JR8 wrote:
poodlek wrote: And it's not because the ice cream server was helping an old lady, it's because his boss didn't teach him how to serve the ice cream quickly. Like SMS said in another thread, why bother, they're never coming back anyway!
Bwahahaha! 8-)

Nak: This will quickly degenerate into something ugly...
I just know it will.

Yep, but then sometimes it just invites it don't you think? Maybe the forum should have it's own version of Godwin's Law, you know, when everything descends into the usual mayhem :lol:

:lol: :lol:

I never intended to turn this into a rag on customer service here in Singapore, I was so over it two weeks after I got here. I just wanted to point out the flaw in logic. For the most part, I am very happy and accepting of the Singapore way of life :-)

It is a bit of a hobby of mine to understand why society is the way it is, understanding differences, etc. I like a good discourse.

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Post by baba_ali » Tue, 04 Jan 2011 7:19 pm

poodlek wrote:
baba_ali wrote: You do realised the difference between doing something for survival and love right? If all Canadians do what they love , would things have changed? Probably not. If Singaporeans do what they love , who is going to fill in the blanks? Such as cleaning toilets and so on. In Singapore , you fit the system , elsewhere the system fits you.

Can you guarantee that North American will do the project within 10 hours? If not we kill him? If this sounds extreme , then think about Singapore. If Singapore roads aren't spotless clean and everything else is same as Malaysia , all the companies would move there. Then you won't be in Singapore at all.
In my husband's company, they employ many Singaporeans in jobs at which they are completely incompetent, (not to mention unqualified wrt technical skills). The only reason they are there is because they are Singaporean and they have a bachelors or masters degree. So yes, I can guarantee that the right North American (or European, or Indian or Chinese), even one without accreditation could get their jobs done much faster and with fewer mistakes. The only reason a Singaporean can't do it is because the technical training for such a job does not exist here. Everyone wants to be banker or executive, so that's what they train for. It's ridiculous. That's just one company here, but I've been told that this is pretty much how things work here. Hard work is much more valued over smart work. It seems even that the output is not as important as the image and idea that "here are a lot of people working REALLY hard."

At one point someone pointed out to my husband's boss that the marketing for their project was getting terrible results--which means it was completely ineffective. The boss' response was that "our marketing department is working very well. We spent over $2 million dollars so far this year." :???: How they can not see that their input is not coming close to equalling their output is beyond me. The important thing to them is that it looks like they're doing something.
I think my point is not reaching across here. Heard of the saying goes something like "Nothing will go wrong buying IBM"??

I have a diploma and I know Linux damn well and slashdot too. But no I don't get any job because I am only a diploma. So lets not see my reply as a defend of the HR dept in Singapore , which I hate to the core.

Some of my colleagues are O'lvl drop outs and one has master from India , all doing the same thing and same pay.

If you want to see the reason , you got to understand the culture. China and Chinese have traditionally been "Scholarship" system. Meaning who can memorise the most wins. Most Asian countries still are. It is still the yardstick. And of course money too. But status/face counts alot here.

I used to have American friend who had engineering degree and been to France , and everywhere I don't know , never settled down here. He is excellent IT guy. He is friendly , very knowledgable and better than most Singaporeans in IT. But he never get a job here.

The word he said before he left for US , "Singapore is so hierarchal" stuck me. You guys either love it or leave. It would be like Singaporeans go US to complain about Iraq and Goldman Sach. Oh and according to HSBC , US and UK ranked lower in term of expat experience than Singapore. Does it mean it sucks more to be an expat than here?

http://www.offshore.hsbc.com/1/2/intern ... eport-2010 (click on league table)

Btw , to those who are complaining about Singapore standard , how long have you been here? I been here for 16 years. When I came here population was about 3.5m. Things were much better than. But things been going downhill since the govt open the floodgate around 2004/5. In 2004 , population was about 4.16m , just 5 years later in 2010 , its 5m.

It wasn't very very friendly like Japanese but it was definitely not a rude place when I arrived.

http://www.singstat.gov.sg/stats/themes ... /popn.html

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Post by JR8 » Tue, 04 Jan 2011 7:20 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
nakatago wrote:This will quickly degenerate into something ugly...

I just know it will.
And so early in the New Year as well! :cool:
Isn't it great. It's like that late Xmas present that you thought had got lost in the post, er, 8-) :wink:

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Post by Addadude » Tue, 04 Jan 2011 7:37 pm

baba_ali wrote:If you don't like Singapore so much , may one ask why are you here?
Ah ha! Despite your initial assertions, with this reply you have just proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that you are a Singaporean!
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Post by poodlek » Tue, 04 Jan 2011 7:43 pm

baba_ali wrote:
I think my point is not reaching across here. Heard of the saying goes something like "Nothing will go wrong buying IBM"??

You're right. Now I'm completely lost.

If you want to see the reason , you got to understand the culture. China and Chinese have traditionally been "Scholarship" system. Meaning who can memorise the most wins. Most Asian countries still are. It is still the yardstick. And of course money too. But status/face counts alot here.

I know all this. Do you mean to say that by Asian standards Singapore is most efficient, despite backwards logic and failing to compare input to output? And this should justify rude behavior?

I used to have American friend who had engineering degree and been to France , and everywhere I don't know , never settled down here. He is excellent IT guy. He is friendly , very knowledgable and better than most Singaporeans in IT. But he never get a job here.

My husband doesn't actually have a degree or diploma, only technical work experience, and his company pays him over ten figures a month. I know he is lucky (we both are), and it is by the same backwards logic that makes his job difficult that he gets paid double what he is worth in the USA. But what does it say for the "kiasuness" of the local culture? If they nurtured the same sort of talents as my husband has, and taught them in school, they could be paying a local guy half of what they're paying my hubby. I'm not so sure that at some point they won't try to hire a local to replace him, expecting the same output with none of the experience or knowledge to provide it.


The word he said before he left for US , "Singapore is so hierarchal" stuck me. You guys either love it or leave. It would be like Singaporeans go US to complain about Iraq and Goldman Sach. Oh and according to HSBC , US and UK ranked lower in term of expat experience than Singapore. Does it mean it sucks more to be an expat than here?

Apparently so. What's your point?

http://www.offshore.hsbc.com/1/2/intern ... eport-2010 (click on league table)

Btw , to those who are complaining about Singapore standard , how long have you been here? I been here for 16 years. When I came here population was about 3.5m. Things were much better than. But things been going downhill since the govt open the floodgate around 2004/5. In 2004 , population was about 4.16m , just 5 years later in 2010 , its 5m.

It wasn't very very friendly like Japanese but it was definitely not a rude place when I arrived.

I find it hard to believe that the rudeness only started in the last 5 years, but of course I can't personally argue with that.

http://www.singstat.gov.sg/stats/themes ... /popn.html

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Post by baba_ali » Tue, 04 Jan 2011 7:55 pm

poodlek wrote:
baba_ali wrote:
I think my point is not reaching across here. Heard of the saying goes something like "Nothing will go wrong buying IBM"??

You're right. Now I'm completely lost.

If you want to see the reason , you got to understand the culture. China and Chinese have traditionally been "Scholarship" system. Meaning who can memorise the most wins. Most Asian countries still are. It is still the yardstick. And of course money too. But status/face counts alot here.

I know all this. Do you mean to say that by Asian standards Singapore is most efficient, despite backwards logic and failing to compare input to output? And this should justify rude behavior?

I used to have American friend who had engineering degree and been to France , and everywhere I don't know , never settled down here. He is excellent IT guy. He is friendly , very knowledgable and better than most Singaporeans in IT. But he never get a job here.

My husband doesn't actually have a degree or diploma, only technical work experience, and his company pays him over ten figures a month. I know he is lucky (we both are), and it is by the same backwards logic that makes his job difficult that he gets paid double what he is worth in the USA. But what does it say for the "kiasuness" of the local culture? If they nurtured the same sort of talents as my husband has, and taught them in school, they could be paying a local guy half of what they're paying my hubby. I'm not so sure that at some point they won't try to hire a local to replace him, expecting the same output with none of the experience or knowledge to provide it.


The word he said before he left for US , "Singapore is so hierarchal" stuck me. You guys either love it or leave. It would be like Singaporeans go US to complain about Iraq and Goldman Sach. Oh and according to HSBC , US and UK ranked lower in term of expat experience than Singapore. Does it mean it sucks more to be an expat than here?

Apparently so. What's your point?

http://www.offshore.hsbc.com/1/2/intern ... eport-2010 (click on league table)

Btw , to those who are complaining about Singapore standard , how long have you been here? I been here for 16 years. When I came here population was about 3.5m. Things were much better than. But things been going downhill since the govt open the floodgate around 2004/5. In 2004 , population was about 4.16m , just 5 years later in 2010 , its 5m.

It wasn't very very friendly like Japanese but it was definitely not a rude place when I arrived.

I find it hard to believe that the rudeness only started in the last 5 years, but of course I can't personally argue with that.

http://www.singstat.gov.sg/stats/themes ... /popn.html
Say that again? Your husband don't have Degree/Diploma and he earns 10 figures a month? 1,000,000,000? Huh?

Also they can't do that and its easy to see why. Not enough people.

You might as well have asked why buy Microsoft products and why not produce own version of , say , MS office? See a large group of people can have a few idiots living under the bridge. But Singapore can't.

Singapore system is never about what is possible. Its always been about what is needed. If companies complain of lack of accountants , govt will push for more accounts. People complain about high medical costs and they build a medical school.

And no nobody in Singapore , including the citizens love it. You are not the first one. Btw , you been in Singapore for 10 months. Have you gone out with the locals and mixed with them?

Almost every replies sounds as if locals here are very happy being rude to eachother. Enjoying cramped buses. Have you guys talked to them? Really. You are not the first one to complain. It has been done 10000 times in other forums. I just came from the other forum full of people with more hates and complains than you about everything.

Today school reopen , do you know the stress they go through. I am definitely not having any children here.

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Post by poodlek » Tue, 04 Jan 2011 8:13 pm

baba_ali wrote:
Say that again? Your husband don't have Degree/Diploma and he earns 10 figures a month? 1,000,000,000? Huh?

LOL That there is what they call "pregnancy brain". I was part way between saying over 10k and five figures. It does sound glamourous, though, doesn't it? :-D :oops:


Also they can't do that and its easy to see why. Not enough people.

You might as well have asked why buy Microsoft products and why not produce own version of , say , MS office? See a large group of people can have a few idiots living under the bridge. But Singapore can't.

This is true, but it doesn't stop them from using the idiots under the bridge anyway. They want an international standard and they say they have it, but from an international perspective, they really don't. However, if they're happy, who can blame them?


Btw , you been in Singapore for 10 months. Have you gone out with the locals and mixed with them?
Yes, but the crowd I run with are not your typical Singaporeans. They are in the spiritual/personal growth industry and are pretty good at being objective and "thinking outside the box" unlike the average joes I interact with daily at the shops and banks, etc.

If they aren't happy with the status quo, then they can do what they need to change, but noone really wants to be the first one to put their neck out, right? So they grudgingly accept the bad behavior of others, and dish some out themselves.

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Post by baba_ali » Tue, 04 Jan 2011 8:41 pm

poodlek wrote:
baba_ali wrote:
Say that again? Your husband don't have Degree/Diploma and he earns 10 figures a month? 1,000,000,000? Huh?

LOL That there is what they call "pregnancy brain". I was part way between saying over 10k and five figures. It does sound glamourous, though, doesn't it? :-D :oops:


Also they can't do that and its easy to see why. Not enough people.

You might as well have asked why buy Microsoft products and why not produce own version of , say , MS office? See a large group of people can have a few idiots living under the bridge. But Singapore can't.

This is true, but it doesn't stop them from using the idiots under the bridge anyway. They want an international standard and they say they have it, but from an international perspective, they really don't. However, if they're happy, who can blame them?


Btw , you been in Singapore for 10 months. Have you gone out with the locals and mixed with them?
Yes, but the crowd I run with are not your typical Singaporeans. They are in the spiritual/personal growth industry and are pretty good at being objective and "thinking outside the box" unlike the average joes I interact with daily at the shops and banks, etc.

If they aren't happy with the status quo, then they can do what they need to change, but noone really wants to be the first one to put their neck out, right? So they grudgingly accept the bad behavior of others, and dish some out themselves.
Over 10k? Wow ... Most Singaporeans would be very "glad" to know this. So lets put it clearly , you have never been with average Singaporeans. Am I right to say that? Oh and your group of people , how much is the average salary? Can I guess they are above national average?

So you been living in Singapore and mixing with a bunch of people who are paid more and think differently? It would be like me go over to India and stay at 1 billion dollar house from Reliance Tech Boss. 99% of people there are below poverty.

I would like to ask , request , that you really mix with the local crowd , not foreigners from China. You may not like them. But at least you know what "is" Singapore and who are the people known as Singaporeans. You are not with them now.

Oh and when you speak about "they" you mean the govt , not the people. Trust me , nobody around my age , 25-30 , here is happy about public housing going over half a million but salaries still in 1980s, except for old people who bought them at 20/30k. We all can't get married in peace.

Oh and also are your friends educated in Singapore? I can almost safely guess they are oversea educated.

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Post by JR8 » Tue, 04 Jan 2011 9:01 pm

baba_ali wrote: Over 10k? Wow ... Most Singaporeans would be very "glad" to know this.
Meaning what? I was remunerated over $10k a month, despite having no qualifications back in the early 90's, when that was a shedload of money for a young guy. Your govt gave me a visa. Do you have a problem with that? Why do you think I got paid so much to do something that no local could even approach doing? QED no?


So lets put it clearly , you have never been with average Singaporeans. Am I right to say that? Oh and your group of people , how much is the average salary? Can I guess they are above national average?

Ad hominem.... yawn!

So you been living in Singapore and mixing with a bunch of people who are paid more and think differently?

Yawn

Oh and when you speak about "they" you mean the govt , not the people. Trust me , nobody around my age , 25-30 , here is happy

Why do you stay then, you know where the airport is.


Oh and also are your friends educated in Singapore? I can almost safely guess they are oversea educated.[/quote]

Strawman, Ad hom, yawn yawn...

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