pondering a move to Singapore

[bktobda]

My fiancee and I are considering a move to Singapore in the semi-near future (he works in insurance/reinsurance). We are planning on getting married and starting a family around the same time as our move. I am a bit apprehensive about the social morays and, at least what seems from an outside perspective, a strict and perhaps intolerant legal code. I also do not know much about the intangibles - the qualitative aspects of child rearing within Singapore at large that are much more difficult to capture in a Google search.

I have lived in highly progressive and culturally-rich areas - I am in Brooklyn currently - for most of my life, and would like to approximate that as much as possible in raising my own children. While we are estimating that our stay would be relatively short, around five years, it could last much longer, depending on his employment. I suppose that I am soliciting any sort of reflection from parents who have struggled with decisions about whether or not to raise their children in Singapore, noting your successes and failures, as well as anything else you may feel compelled to add - in short, impressions from people other than the few I have spoken to about their lived experiences in Singapore.

I haven't yet travelled to Singapore to get a first-person experience, but plan to do so soon. My fiancee and I are considering a few other cities (namely London, Hong Kong, Munich, and Zurich), so if anyone else has anything to add on those cities, it may be helpful as well.

Thanks very much in advance for any thoughts you may be able to contribute.

[Dolph]

Go for it! My husband and I (we are both European) have had both of our children here in Singapore and given the high quality of healthcare and the general low level of crime here, we would not have had it any differently. Singapore is expensive, but since you live in NYC I would imagine that it wouldn't be too much of a shock for you. Childcare is generally also very accessible (wide choice) and you have the option of hiring a live-in maid to help you our with all of your domestic chores. Overall, I would highly recommend it.

[kungfuliu]

Don't believe the stories you here about Singapore being strict, etc. The laws are no different to other western countries really. The only difference is that Singapore will use the law if you get caught.

I know in England, it is illegal to throw litter. If you get caught doing it, you will most likely be asked to pick it up and dispose of it properly. Here, it is the same, but if you get an enforcement office on a bad day, they will give you a fine. But only if you are unlucky.

The laws here are generally in the public's interest. Something like not being able to eat or drink on public transport is a good thing if you think about it. BTW. It is NOT illegal to chew chewing gum in Singapore! It's just illegal to sell it.

I hope this information helps in your decision.

[noodlemama]

bktobda,

I am an American who has lived here for just over 20 years. Also had two kids with one going off to America soon for college!!! Just this morning he called himself "a so-called American". Both my husband and I are liberal and I did worry about the restrictions when we moved here.

We subscribe to the International Herald Tribune (NYT) which saves us. Culturally, Singapore has improved more than a thousand fold since the early 90s. There are plenty of opportunities for cultural events. This is addition to the cultural happenings that occur here as a result of their multi-cultural heritage.

But once you have kids, you will appreciate more and more the strictness of Singapore (as compared to America). As an avid gun-hater, this place is paradise!

[sundaymorningstaple]

b
But once you have kids, you will appreciate more and more the strictness of Singapore (as compared to America). As an avid gun-hater, this place is paradise!

I agree 100% with you (29 years here) but unfortunately not with the last sentence. In fact, I just returned on Friday morning with my son, who I taught proper gunmanship to while home this time. When you live on a farm, a gun is a necessary tool at times. The other times are used to put meat on the table.

[beppi]

> When you live on a farm, a gun is a necessary tool at times.
> The other times are used to put meat on the table.

SMS, please stay focused on Singapore in this forum!
Or are you doing the same here?!?

[sundaymorningstaple]

I'm entitled to disagree with the posters last sentence. A gun-hater is a gun-hater, whether in Singapore or the US. I'm not a gun-hater. pfft.

[bethnalgreen]

I have lived in highly progressive and culturally-rich areas - I am in Brooklyn currently - for most of my life, and would like to approximate that as much as possible in raising my own children

While Singapore is a brilliant place for many people, I would have to say that if you are a Brooklyn-type looking for a progressive and culturally-rich city to raise your children, it is probably not for you.

Before anyone here jumps down my throat, that is not to say that this isn't a great place to live. For some, of course it is! And, it's not to say that there is nothing culturally-rich about it... of course there are amazing pockets, and yes it is not as strict as it used to be, etc. But let's be honest, if the criteria is: "culturally rich & progressive", and the scope is anywhere in the world, then I don't think Singapore should be anywhere near the top of the list. If the criteria were: "a safe place and easy place to live and make money", then absolutely yes! I'm just saying not everyplace is right for everyone.

I am also a "Brooklyn-type" who prefers "culturally-rich and progressive" places. Our family has lived in the artsy bits of New York & London, as well as Amsterdam, Toronto, Hong Kong, Rome and Singapore. Singapore is our least favourite, and although we are not totally unhappy here, if we had known what is was going to be like we probably would have opted to go somewhere else instead. If you have progressive values (as we do) and you are trying to raise children (as we are), Singapore is actually quite a difficult place to be. Seeing how you described yourself this place is probably not for you. From my progressive and arty perspective I would describe it as "conservative and provincial", (with some interesting bits).

If you have the options you listed: London, Hong Kong, etc., I would say explore those first. I don't know Munich, but Berlin is very culturally rich, very progressive, and has an incredible arts scene. I know a few people raising children there who love it. London is very culturally vibrant and although you wouldn't necessarily think of it as child-friendly, there are endless things to do there with kids, for free: museums, galleries, markets, parks, etc. Hong Kong offers the same opportunity as Singapore for affordable home help, but with exciting big city energy. Major Canadian cities are great for being progressive, child friendly and relatively safe. Or Sydney? I don't know, I would just say probably not Singapore.

[TravelingCircusof5]

We're having to make the same decision currently.

We have been in China with our 3 kids are are deciding to move to Sg for 3+ years or stay here for the same time. People say, "Oh, in Singapore you can get in trouble for everything!" or "Singapore is so small. It would get so boring." "Singapore is So expensive!" but aside from housing and beer, Shanghai gives it good competition.

Do you all find truth in these statements? Actually, as caucasian foreigners in China, we are always treated as outsiders no matter what, so I feel that we hardly experience the Chinese culture at all. Therefore, Shanghai can actually be quite boring for us. Even when we feel at home here, China does not feel at home with us, except in 'expat places.'

On the other hand, my older kids are now middle school age and I hate to make them start over in a new place again. The turnover rate in China of our friends is extremely high, which is also difficult. Do families tend to stay in Singapore longer than other places because it is an easier place to live?

[beppi]

Apart from the usual stereotypes you heard about Singapore (which are obviously grossly overstated, but do contain a grain of truth), Singapore is a big, cosmopolitan city with a niche for everyone - and whether you like it here or not depends mainly on yourself, your expectations and how you adapt if they are not met in every respect.
I understand your concerns about "always treated as outsiders" by the locals, as that is exactly what I found (and hated) in Japan. I found most Singaporeans to be pretty open and approachable in this respect and do not treat foreigners any different than fellow countrymen - although, as in most places, you need to make the first steps towards them. There are, however, many foreigners who don't do that, become stuck in their (mental) expat ghetto and then loudly complain about the locals (being too narrowminded) as well as the foreigners (changing too frequently). Just browse this forum for examples! If you avoid such circles (mostly at the usual expat hangouts and foreign clubs), you will enjoy Singapore, as I did for 12 years now.

[nakatago]

The Japanese are a bit xenophobic; Singaporeans, on the other hand are pretty open with others, although, to a fault--sometimes, they expect you to know how it is to be Singaporean.

Personally, though, and on a more serious note, Singapore is convenient and easy to live in but it feels like it's only good "in the meantime." I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way--and people surely have different lengths of how long "in the meantime" is. Singapore is nice to live and work in right now but I have second thoughts about settling here. Your mileage will definitely vary, of course. You can read about specific topics on different aspects of life here.

You could also try it out here. Live a few years and see how things work out for you. Sometimes, the only way to get the vibe of a city is to live there.

In summary: one groups thinks Singapore is the best place on earth and hence would like to set roots here; another group thinks Singapore is a good place for now but they'd rather be in [insert place of choice] after [set personal ultimatum].

[local lad]

Apart from the usual stereotypes you heard about Singapore (which are obviously grossly overstated, but do contain a grain of truth), Singapore is a big, cosmopolitan city with a niche for everyone - and whether you like it here or not depends mainly on yourself, your expectations and how you adapt if they are not met in every respect.
I understand your concerns about "always treated as outsiders" by the locals, as that is exactly what I found (and hated) in Japan. I found most Singaporeans to be pretty open and approachable in this respect and do not treat foreigners any different than fellow countrymen - although, as in most places, you need to make the first steps towards them. There are, however, many foreigners who don't do that, become stuck in their (mental) expat ghetto and then loudly complain about the locals (being too narrowminded) as well as the foreigners (changing too frequently). Just browse this forum for examples! If you avoid such circles (mostly at the usual expat hangouts and foreign clubs), you will enjoy Singapore, as I did for 12 years now.

Singaporeans found it difficult to establish long-term friendships with foreigners because of their transcending nature: most foreigners I know are on a few years contract before they leave for another country. There is nothing anyone can do when a job is concerned.

Given the benefit of doubt, probably foreigners do not know much about the community clubs located every district in Singapore. I suppose foreigners are allowed to join activities organised by such clubs. Unless they choose to stay in their ghetto, there is nothing much Singaporeans can do to understand them further.

[beppi]

Yes, the community clubs (CCs) are open to everyone and sometimes do have interesting activities, like handicrafts or language courses, cultural activities or outings to the last Singaporean farms. Only problem is that they are heavily geared towards elderly "heartland" aunties and uncles, who might not be everybody's preferred clientele. For that reason I have attended more CC events than my (Singaporean) wife.
My mother-in-law spends much of her time at the CC, learns English, computer skills, Tai Chi and calligraphy there and even teaches Ang Pao origami.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Hey beppi, you ought to join the resident's committee then. I did several years ago. It'll eat up ALL you spare time as the chairman will invariably want to include you in all activities. Although, after a while, you get tired of the endless festival dinners (never thought I say that I got tired of free dinners). However, it's good camaraderie and who knows, the networking is worth it as well. Also, you patron MP will tend to want to flash you around as well. We are a minority (novelty) I must admit. But it is a good way to interact with the heartlanders.

[Badhairday23]

I am a Londoner who is currently living in Munich. Also, I'm 6 months pregnant.

Munich is not a bad place to raise kids. It's extremely safe, and the kids tend to have quite an outdoorsy lifestyle. Cycling to school/work seems very popular, there is a lot of summer sport and of course skiiing in the winter. However, I'm not much of a skiier or anything, and when it's cold I tend to retreat and stay at home all day. Don't want to raise my kid that way.

I personally, prefer Munich to London in terms of raising a family. I even get the impression that the quality of schooling has somewhat deteriorated in LOndon in the last couple of decades, with less students going into courses such as sciences and engineering than do in Germany.

I have never lived in Singapore, but I visited my sister when she lived there, and I felt that was the kind of place I would like to raise my kids. Safe, outdoorsy, warm. My husband and I are currently looking into our options with regards to relocating there.