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They've got their canes out again!

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ksl
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Postby ksl » Fri, 29 Oct 2010 1:22 am

EADG wrote:Barbaric.
purely for animals, In fact I would protest at animals being whipped too. But what to do if it helps the do it.

I was watching the 10 commandments on Video with my daughter. Moses had a great problem on his hands, when some of the Hebrews he had freed from slavery, built idols of worship and disbelieved in God and Moses, they fought among themselves like wild savages.

My daughter who is 10 asked me why they did not believe in God, when they can see what god has done for them. I didn't know what to say, and when Moses had the order from God, to kill all those that built Icons because they disbelieved in God and Moses.

I could only fall back on the 10 commandments, and couldn't answer why God should kill his own people, hopefully i got the main message over to her, the 10 commandments. The World is Chaos we cannot do anything to improve it, as it is part of the biorhythm and balance, when the balance is tilted one way or the other, then a sever reaction will occur. We have to acknowledge that barbarism does exist, in good and evil it is part of human nature for survival but others use it for gain.

To say to ourselves we could not be barbaric would be a lie, it's all a matter of circumstance and orderly behaviour that we have grown up with keeps us in check, in a chaotic society were people take without asking, it all changes people that have lived without rules will please themselves what they do, only fear will keep them on the right road, fear of what is the big answer to the question.
Though when you have been locked up for a long time, it may become very difficult to adapt outside of prison, depends on many factors like character, age, education, the abuse, and much more.

Everything is to do with fear, even crossing the road on a red light, not logic.

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Postby ksl » Fri, 29 Oct 2010 2:25 am

I don't know if i should laugh or cry at this link on the news, and you think Singapore was bad letting one escape :evil:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11645880

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Postby x9200 » Fri, 29 Oct 2010 8:08 am

treacle_sponge wrote:Of course they are, I'm not saying otherwise, but laws aren't. If something is a law, if you break it, it doesn't matter how much you sugarcoat it, you've still broken it. Legal procedures, on the other hand, are the details in between when the case goes to trial. It depends on so many other variables that are subjective. However, there are still strict guidelines that determine the outcome. What we were talking about is fairness within the justice system, and yes your line is in a different place to mine.


I think I made it a bit unclear and it nicely deviated from the main topic. The bottom line: Law (among other things) is based on fairness. "A justice system". Already with devalued meaning but clearly showing a link to the social sense of justice. Many people feel that the caning is a fair punishment for a number of offences.

treacle_sponge wrote:Uh, aren't most phrases empty anyway? Abstract concepts are often built upon a set of principles that are agreed upon, but it doesn't undermine the validity of such concepts, surely? You might disagree on whether or not civil lawsuits bring enough compensation to satisfy the victims of crime, and I'm likely to agree with you, but since it is sometimes impossible to rectify the situation by any other means, monetary compensations are often the nearest possible solutions.


But why? A point of view, being nothing but your subjective sense of fairness is not a good justification.
Civilized is a container word so does not show any distinctive reasons of support. It is like "because we are all human", or God wants it this way. Is not specific enough :)

treacle_sponge wrote:Adequately severe? Again, that is purely subjective. How severe are we

It is not subjective it is general. Just a simplified description of the 2 main factors.

treacle_sponge wrote:talking? I don't understand what you mean when you say that once the offender is bankrupt there would be completely no means to stop him from committing another crime? The monetary compensations are not a deterrent, they are meant for the victim, not to stop someone from reoffending. As for the caning thing, just look at the crime statistics in Singapore. Is the country crime-free?

I understood that you were suggesting this as a solution, an acceptable punishment for the crime. If not, what is your solution then? You do not want a corporal punishment of any sort, that's clear but what should be done to limit the crime and what should be done to these who offend the law? And more importantly, why this not the other way?

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Postby Expat_guy » Fri, 29 Oct 2010 10:22 am

I like singapore. They make an example of these offenders to others and prevents them from committing any crime. Even in schools here they make a list of offences a boy student have done and after proper warnings, he will be caned in an open assembly with all the other students as witnesses.

There is no indiscriminate use of caning by class teachers in schools here in singapore as was the case in alteast some of the countries. And in all those countries, corporal punishment failed to discipline the boys and hence was stopped.

There cannot be a crime free society. There will be always a few bunch of scoundrals, irrespective of whatever punishment you give them, they keep committing the crime again and again. But there should be an appropriate kind of punishment which will make others to disist from committing such crimes.

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Postby ksl » Sat, 30 Oct 2010 3:45 am

It's clear cut in my opinion that whatever happens in the world, balance is required for a functional society, when the scales are tipped one way or the other, then a reactive response will happen.

Singapore tells the world, to look in their own backyards, before looking in theirs and rightly so. Politics are the root cause of all the problems in the world, be it the neglect of the family values, or the Country as a whole.

The Dynamics of balance is what it's all about, but do individuals care or understand. here's a quote:

These forces include the balance of subjectivity and objectivity, weaknesses and strengths, problems and opportunities, creation and destruction, conflict and cooperation, unity and focus, ground and climate, costs and benefits, decisions and actions, opponents and supporters, facts and opinions, advantages and disadvantages,

There are facts and the opposite falsehoods, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth..”

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Postby EADG » Sat, 30 Oct 2010 2:36 pm

I agree with you ksl as I most often do except this:
ksl wrote:it's reserved for barbaric acts


Assuming that list is for real, there's shocking and distasteful rationales for which it is "available".

Such heinous infractions as "lurking house trespass or house breaking in", "Entering or remaining....without a valid pass", "discharge of fireworks", etc. to warrant institutionalizing public beatings.

To accept the beating of another human being at all, suggests allowing one's own anger to fester and redirect it with intent. At some point it is ultimately torture. Surely there are more humane ways. And we've progressed as a human race from this. The instrument itself is diabolical.

That's for "criminals"; unthinkable to even consider it for students or children. What does that teach other than to legitimize and perpetuate the mentality. It could even give cause to some children in some situations to consider retribution or for them to take it out on someone else.

Everyone is different, but If I were whacked as a kid with a cane or other instrument of pain, any "lesson" I would be meant to learn would be overshadowed by permanent resentment and unforgiveness towards whoever did it.

Leading by example is much more effective and respectable.

I don't doubt that 10, 20, 50 years into the future it will cease as a practice, and be considered antiquated and an embarrassment.
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Postby EADG » Sat, 30 Oct 2010 3:26 pm

... (dupe post deleted)
Last edited by EADG on Mon, 01 Nov 2010 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ape Shall Not Kill Ape

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Postby aster » Sun, 31 Oct 2010 3:54 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Solution? Don't break the law. Simple. Personally? I would like to see the US enact the same laws as are here.


Well said, let's also keep in mind that caning is mainly used on crimes where those responsible for committing them actually deserve it.

Of course overstaying can be viewed as a minor infringement by some, but they really need to make sure that this doesn't become a massive problem... hence the very harsh penalty to prevent people from breaking immigration laws (which is so prevalent in many countries, like the US or the EU).

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Postby ksl » Sun, 31 Oct 2010 4:58 pm

aster wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:Solution? Don't break the law. Simple. Personally? I would like to see the US enact the same laws as are here.


Well said, let's also keep in mind that caning is mainly used on crimes where those responsible for committing them actually deserve it.

Of course overstaying can be viewed as a minor infringement by some, but they really need to make sure that this doesn't become a massive problem... hence the very harsh penalty to prevent people from breaking immigration laws (which is so prevalent in many countries, like the US or the EU).


I read some place for over staying your Visa, you can be jailed up to 6 months in Singapore.. The guy getting caned stayed much much longer than a few days, in fact if i'm not wrong he stayed over 6 months, and was also involved in criminal activities. I'll guarantee that he thinks twice about doing it in Singapore again

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Postby anneteoh » Sun, 31 Oct 2010 8:55 pm

I'll give this topic a 5 star for relevance.
The issues are quite clear cut as many pointed out.
1. Criminals should be punished.
2. Illegal immigrants are usually not individuals but, as from police investigations done in the UK, are connected to a chain of international gang -like dealings. This could be a testing ground for more to come.
3. There are triple or quadruple crimes committed between the husband and wife. They 're probably using their American status to whip up media support when in fact, a crime committed by any Tom, Dick or Harry is a crime committed.
4. I guess SG retain the couple for investigative purposes.
I saw some pictures of political offenders being caned in Malaysia in Asia's Finest Forum. They looked excrutiatingly painful.
It's possible that SG approaches caning differently, perhaps in a more civilised way.
Personally, I am against caning or the infliction of pain on any sentient being. I agree that caning is barbaric. However, I'm equally against crime, especially that of lying, cheating and profitting in any manner from the innocent in this way.
The easiest solution would be to get rid of the illegal immigrants. The pregnancy situation appeared well-thought out, therefore it can be deduced as an intentional crime to exploit humanitarian considerations. In fact, it's cruel to subject the wife to such a rotten situation unless she's complicit.
As far as I see it, it'll cost the government and taxpayers more to process cases of crimes. In this case, apparently, several crimes had been committed in the international arena which imply the work of adroit schemers.
If they're not S'poreans, why bother to cane them accruing to a waste of people's time and resources, and getting a bad name for Sg too?

Are these deliberate law breakers worth even a caning?

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Re: The issues

Postby nakatago » Sun, 31 Oct 2010 9:36 pm

anneteoh wrote:Are these deliberate law breakers worth even a caning?


like I said before. it says a lot about the system's priorities. caning for overstaying? sheesh.

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Re: The issues

Postby x9200 » Mon, 01 Nov 2010 2:52 am

anneteoh wrote:If they're not S'poreans, why bother to cane them accruing to a waste of people's time and resources, and getting a bad name for Sg too?

Are these deliberate law breakers worth even a caning?

It is probably worth every cent spent. It would be much more expensive to track down and deport all the illegal immigrants that may get here by overstaying encouraged by the ghament not taking any action. IMHO this is for prevention. It is always cheaper to prevent.
Are the drug traffickers worth even prosecuting if they are not Singaporeans?

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Postby giahoto » Tue, 02 Nov 2010 5:19 pm

EADG wrote:http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/10/22/singapore.visa.caning/index.html?hpt=T2

Sorry, still barbaric in my mind, whether in the home or the general public. But I doubt they care how the rest of the world views them on this point.

I mean really, how could anyone actually order to do or do that to anyone unless they are just a little bit warped?


Singapore must cane these foreign criminals hard. If you break the law you get caned, simple as that. We don't want Singapore turning into a fiscally and morally bankrupt country; where guns, drugs and crime are rampant!

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Postby EADG » Tue, 02 Nov 2010 8:29 pm

This one clearly believes what he/she reads in the ST and is educated by TV.

Get off the island much?

Later, troll.
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Postby giahoto » Tue, 02 Nov 2010 8:50 pm

EADG wrote:This one clearly believes what he/she reads in the ST and is educated by TV.

Get off the island much?

Later, troll.


This one clearly is not very educated and can't find Singapore on a world map. Probably was homeschooled by his girlfriend who is also his mom. Hardly unusual.

Later, little trash.


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