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They've got their canes out again!

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 24 Oct 2010 5:53 am

It's interesting that my mother and I had a similar discussion a couple of nights ago about this very thing. She also thought the system was very barbaric until she looked at it from a different (my) POV.

From where I sit, If we had more draconian laws in the US, Maybe we wouldn't have as high crime rates, drug problems or delinquency problems. I don't know. But, I do know this.... If you do the crime after all the warnings you get in Singapore from the moment you step off the airplane (actually while you are in the air before even landing) even before you get through immigration, then the punishment is warranted as you would have had to deliberately, with pre-meditation commit the crime (regardless of the nature of the crime). By making the punishment excessive, one would have to think twice about committing the crime. Therefore, no punishment is excessive if it accomplishes what it was designed to do - prevention of crime. It's only excessive when you "break the law". Solution? Don't break the law. Simple. Personally? I would like to see the US enact the same laws as are here.

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Postby x9200 » Sun, 24 Oct 2010 9:14 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Personally? I would like to see the US enact the same laws as are here.

..and then the lawyers would find the way.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sun, 24 Oct 2010 1:03 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:It's interesting that my mother and I had a similar discussion a couple of nights ago about this very thing. She also thought the system was very barbaric until she looked at it from a different (my) POV.

Yes it's a matter of perspective. It is also barbaric to rape someone, stab them with a knife, or beat them to a pulp. It seems fairer that the guilty are subjected to barbaric treatment then the innocent. In the end someone has to pay the price - which group should it be?

We will never know how many potential rapists have been deterred by the prospect of caning. I wonder if those who are against caning would feel the same way if it were abolished and their daughter got raped the week after.

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Postby ksl » Sun, 24 Oct 2010 5:10 pm

I'm 100% for the cane as well! Everyone knows the risks, so they have only themselves to blame. It's mostly barbarians at one end of the yardstick or the other, that commit crimes
Last edited by ksl on Sun, 24 Oct 2010 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby poodlek » Sun, 24 Oct 2010 6:25 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:It's interesting that my mother and I had a similar discussion a couple of nights ago about this very thing. She also thought the system was very barbaric until she looked at it from a different (my) POV.

From where I sit, If we had more draconian laws in the US, Maybe we wouldn't have as high crime rates, drug problems or delinquency problems. I don't know. But, I do know this.... If you do the crime after all the warnings you get in Singapore from the moment you step off the airplane (actually while you are in the air before even landing) even before you get through immigration, then the punishment is warranted as you would have had to deliberately, with pre-meditation commit the crime (regardless of the nature of the crime). By making the punishment excessive, one would have to think twice about committing the crime. Therefore, no punishment is excessive if it accomplishes what it was designed to do - prevention of crime. It's only excessive when you "break the law". Solution? Don't break the law. Simple. Personally? I would like to see the US enact the same laws as are here.


After reading up on the practice a little bit I've noticed a few things:
-it's reserved for men under the age of 50
-it's done only after a doctor has certified the individual physically fit
-it's done in such a way as not to cause any life threatening (or even permanent, other than scarring) damage.

While it would be easy to determine whether the gender/age guidelines are followed, there is a bit of wiggle room for judgement on the other two points. As long as there was 0% chance that I would die or have any lasting ill-effects (issues with nerve damage or affecting my ability to walk) I would not be afraid to step up and take this punishment, especially if it meant reduced prison time. I don't see how this would be a very big deterrent to a certain type of hardened criminals in the West, although I understand its role in shaming the individual here in the East.[/list]

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Postby nakatago » Sun, 24 Oct 2010 6:31 pm

ksl wrote:I'm 100% for this system cane as well! Everyone knows the risks, so they have only themselves to blame. It's mostly barbarians at one end of the yardstick or the other, that commit crimes


...as long as nobody gets the bright idea of using the same punishment for violations against "harmonious society" or for "acts of defamation." and there is due process--with proper representation and a fighting chance.

like i said, let the punishment fit the crime.

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Postby x9200 » Sun, 24 Oct 2010 6:55 pm

poodlek wrote:After reading up on the practice a little bit I've noticed a few things:
-it's reserved for men under the age of 50
-it's done only after a doctor has certified the individual physically fit
-it's done in such a way as not to cause any life threatening (or even permanent, other than scarring) damage.

While it would be easy to determine whether the gender/age guidelines are followed, there is a bit of wiggle room for judgement on the other two points.

You can die from the stress from being arrested and there is no absolute guaranty for anything of this sort. I guess the risk of wrong judgement in these two cases is similar.

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Postby ksl » Sun, 24 Oct 2010 9:09 pm

poodlek wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:It's interesting that my mother and I had a similar discussion a couple of nights ago about this very thing. She also thought the system was very barbaric until she looked at it from a different (my) POV.

From where I sit, If we had more draconian laws in the US, Maybe we wouldn't have as high crime rates, drug problems or delinquency problems. I don't know. But, I do know this.... If you do the crime after all the warnings you get in Singapore from the moment you step off the airplane (actually while you are in the air before even landing) even before you get through immigration, then the punishment is warranted as you would have had to deliberately, with pre-meditation commit the crime (regardless of the nature of the crime). By making the punishment excessive, one would have to think twice about committing the crime. Therefore, no punishment is excessive if it accomplishes what it was designed to do - prevention of crime. It's only excessive when you "break the law". Solution? Don't break the law. Simple. Personally? I would like to see the US enact the same laws as are here.


After reading up on the practice a little bit I've noticed a few things:
-it's reserved for men under the age of 50
-it's done only after a doctor has certified the individual physically fit
-it's done in such a way as not to cause any life threatening (or even permanent, other than scarring) damage.

While it would be easy to determine whether the gender/age guidelines are followed, there is a bit of wiggle room for judgement on the other two points. As long as there was 0% chance that I would die or have any lasting ill-effects (issues with nerve damage or affecting my ability to walk) I would not be afraid to step up and take this punishment, especially if it meant reduced prison time. I don't see how this would be a very big deterrent to a certain type of hardened criminals in the West, although I understand its role in shaming the individual here in the East.[/list]


I can tell you for fact, that you will think twice after being caned, it used to be a very routine punishment in many UK schools back in the 60's, I have had it several times on hands and bottom, and I'm pretty sure the Singapore cane is even more painful, as they do use a 2 meter one which has been soaked in a liquid, that prevents it splitting, I am also pretty sure that the administer is restricted in arm swing.

Though teachers never had the same restrictions, when using it in UK, 6 of the best would bring tears to many eyes, if it didn't you could still guarantee all punished would have difficulty sitting down for a couple of hrs, the burn is intense, I would rather have it on my hands any day.

It is something you don't just forget, i can guarantee you of that, and even the hardest of nutters I've seen cringe at the cane, though they lose credibility if a tear drops.

Only the most barbaric of delinquents and headbangers, would continue to break the rules, most of them i know from my past are very well institutionalised, so you do have a choice when young, good training for S&M too :lol:

The cons in UK take prison has a vacation if it's under a year, and at Christmas time all the homeless may break a few shop windows, to get their Christmas dinners. Punishment in UK which has the highest jail rate in Europe, is a bloody joke where chivvy crimes, like speeding fines and alimony get hammered worse than theft,.

As the fines go back into the state kitty, not only that the car park attendants, are on bonus too to book anyone illegal parking, no prison time, though if you fail to pay the fines, you will get prison.

There is far too much of these human rights being exploited by criminals today, they can get off Scot free.

One doesn't have to be religious to follow the 10 commandments :wink: It's what any parent with commonsense would wish for their children
Last edited by ksl on Mon, 25 Oct 2010 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sun, 24 Oct 2010 10:21 pm

poodlek wrote:I would not be afraid to step up and take this punishment, especially if it meant reduced prison time.

I doubt it. Grown men beg judges to extend their jail time rather than be caned. The pain is excruciating and therein lies the deterrent effect. There are some first hand accounts on that link I posted.

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Postby poodlek » Mon, 25 Oct 2010 1:01 am

Wind In My Hair wrote:
poodlek wrote:I would not be afraid to step up and take this punishment, especially if it meant reduced prison time.

I doubt it. Grown men beg judges to extend their jail time rather than be caned. The pain is excruciating and therein lies the deterrent effect. There are some first hand accounts on that link I posted.


I read the descriptions and I think I've endured and survived worse than that already...I'm the type of person who would choose physical pain over mental anguish any day of the week. It's moot anyway, since I'm a woman and I have no intention of committing a crime :P

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Postby x9200 » Mon, 25 Oct 2010 7:05 am

Somebody pointed here before to a link showing the caning punishment carried out in Malaysia. This was, IIRC, at the time of the graffiti on MRT case. You should be able to find it. Comparing it even remotely to caning at school is a gross misunderstanding and I am not surprised some people beg judges for an exchange to the jail sentence.

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Postby ksl » Mon, 25 Oct 2010 3:56 pm

x9200 wrote:Somebody pointed here before to a link showing the caning punishment carried out in Malaysia. This was, IIRC, at the time of the graffiti on MRT case. You should be able to find it. Comparing it even remotely to caning at school is a gross misunderstanding and I am not surprised some people beg judges for an exchange to the jail sentence.


Are we talking from experience or bloody pictures. pain is pain, no matter if the skin splits or not, and i can guarantee you I would prefer being whipped by a legal entity than a psychopathic school teacher without control. I can tell you for certain and I'm sure many that have been whipped will verify that the cane in the wrong hands is a fearful experience and back in those days, certain teachers were actually feared as they got their enjoyment out of beating you.

At least corporal punishment isn't allowed to raise the cane past the shoulder. The blood is nothing at all, just looks bad to people that are not accustomed to seeing blood, the art of torture is nothing new, and I have see several teachers getting prosecuted for going over the top in public schools back in the 60's, So I'm trying to relate to your comments here, which i find a little naive, I can only presume you are not old enough, or have never been whipped, with the cane to make such comment. Though to get the right person to whip you and you will not sit down for months, the cloth doesn't reduce the pain, and one can adapt to 6 of the best quite easy, after all we are talking of kids.

Getting 24 strokes only prolongs the pain, it's still the same pain no matter if you bleed or not, and that's probably why they don't stop at 6 strokes, 6 strokes is nothing a kid cannot take, but get another 6 before the first six have healed, just prolongs the torture, the pain is the same, bare skin of course will leave marks, still the pain is the same, the marks are a just a reminder. So i am pretty sure that if you have had a good uncontrolled beating at school, you can relate to what they will get in prison, that's why it was called corporal punishment.

And it is pretty obvious that even corporal punishment is not enough to defeat crime from foreigners, as the rate of caning in Singapore as doubled since 1994. One can adapt to pain and i have a high tolerance level myself though the cane puts me off.

You can try testing yourself by going to the dentist the next time he wants to remove the nerve, to see if you can get through it :lol: yes i have done it last year, lasted all of 12 minutes, before i asked for a little anesthetic but not much has i wanted to drink my coffee without it dribbling down my shirt, :) or you can also try the cane, I'll be more than happy to oblige :P
Many of the S&M gang would love it too, it's about training and adapting to it. Like some of the teachers used to smirk while they were in the act of whipping. The UK were experts at it, and it soon spread throughout other countries too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_cane

I'm not sure if it helps or not, as the statistics show the punishment as doubled in Singapore, but my guess is that its mostly foreigners committing the crimes, as they come from Countries that are lacking the discipline of authority and the cane, though they will think twice after the event, that's for sure.

The Isle of Man was notorious more in the 60's and 70's http://www.corpun.com/manx.htm

I want to see more and more of it used world wide :lol:

Though not hanging, as they have a tendency to hang anyone, so the bent coppers get their promotion, every country has its internal problems, that are often never investigated until it's too late, and that is why i have always said, that we as people with urges and impulses will always be attracted into the professions, that can hide them best. Though it is very controversial isn't it.
SMS:making the punishment excessive,
Like 24 strokes yes i agree, though only for the severest of crimes and repeat offenders, they need to learn the hard way i guess.

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Postby x9200 » Mon, 25 Oct 2010 4:37 pm

Ksl, have you seen the video? This is not about blood. It happened that I posted a link to one article but at first I did not spot the link to the video at the bottom of the page. Quality is rather poor but good enough to get an idea.

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/06/swi ... s-of-cane/

I am not against caning and I think it serves its purpose but yourself and poodlek seem to take it a bit too lightly or have here some misconceptions.

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Postby ksl » Mon, 25 Oct 2010 4:56 pm

x9200 wrote:Ksl, have you seen the video? This is not about blood. It happened that I posted a link to one article but at first I did not spot the link to the video at the bottom of the page. Quality is rather poor but good enough to get an idea.

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2010/06/swi ... s-of-cane/

I am not against caning and I think it serves its purpose but yourself and poodlek seem to take it a bit too lightly or have here some misconceptions.
You have got to be kidding me right! The jerk new the risks, and the cane and pain are strokes on a bare bottom so what.
I can only think you have have the misconceptions, because you have never been caned, that's my whole point, I have grown up with caning, leather belts and even metal pokers, where have you been hiding. 16 kids under 20 years old have been shot dead this year just in London alone.

I just don't understand what you are trying to refer too, misconceptions, what i am saying is you are the one with misconceptions has you are saying you cannot relate the two kinds of caning, and of course you cannot if you have never been caned, but all those people that have been caned in their lives can relate to unrestricted corporal punishment and know that it can be very very painful. But we are also well aware of the facts some people get used to it. That is fact as pain tolerance is different for everyone, there are a few reoffenders here in Singapore that never learn!

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Mon, 25 Oct 2010 5:26 pm

If you two keep squabbling I will cane you, ksl style of course. But don't worry, poodlek will probably offer to bare (sic) it on your behalf.

Ksl, I too was caned as a child but prison caning is of a different magnitude. Kind of like... A post is a post, but a 4-paragraph post is infinitely more painful to read than a 4-line post ;)


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