They've got their canes out again!

[nakatago]

Is SG the only country where the state must not be commented on (apart from in state approved ways)?

North Korea

[JR8]

Serious question now, but is your real name Norah by any chance?

Easy guys. What was originally intended as an entirely affectionate quip, is starting to morph into something else, and it's not really cricket is it.


Onwards and upwards!

[anneteoh]

[quote="JR8
You're not a believer in freedom of speech or expression Anne?

I think the issue is one of paranoia and ego. Is SG the only country where the state must not be commented on (apart from in state approved ways)? Was the Soviet Union like this?[/quote]

I believe in freedom of speech even though I can see it doesn't really do much good to any country per se.
The trouble is some people abuse freedom of speech, like name calling for instance, which you've become a practioner of, and dragging me into it as well.
Look at your allegations above - paranoia, ego etc - all completely out of context with circumstantial evidence.

Making comments is different from accusing or slandering; most often we can only make judgement from evidence based on deeds or gather facts from alibis who can swear to speak the truth. This is the priinciple we honour so we stick to it.

Perjurors get punished - take the case of Clinton. Don't you think he was a good president otherwise? I personally can overlook Clinton's conjugal betrayal but he was responsible to the Americans as head of state , so the whole thing had to go to court.
It's a simialr case here - except that Shradrak didn't exactly court LKY or SG but slander them.

If you're so good at pointing out cases such as this here, you'd surely know a lot more about Russia than I do.

But stop running into the woods JR8. The issues here are about caning and resolutions as far as I'm concerned. My solution, some posts back from here sounds good to me. Shradrak should offer to burn his books and the govt can remove the caning on compasssionate grounds.
A win win ending.

[sundaymorningstaple]

For the record, Shadrake is over the age of 55 so is exempt from caning by law. So while it will remain on his record, it will be stayed due to his age.

[EADG]

Probably painfully obvious but I didn't know that scarring was always the case. This makes it that much more barbaric in my eyes.

But mention of humiliation as part of the punishment - even worse. Diabolical. Not only but especially when this is done to children.

Who would ever want to humiliate their children?

Can people really be that inept at parenting and leadership to resort to such tactics?

Again, this practice will only perpetuate the mentality.

A detail that appears to have been either overlooked or misunderstood is; when an offender is caned the flesh is left permanently scarred. This would be similar to branding which is what QRM meant.

[anneteoh]

For the record, Shadrake is over the age of 55 so is exempt from caning by law. So while it will remain on his record, it will be stayed due to his age.

There you are. Clemency noted.
I did hear something to the effect on the news but they weren't quite sure if he would forego the caning or the fine.
Well, he obviously knew what he was doing then.

SMS re the election of a Malay PM as you'd mocked the SG govt with in some other thread, I really believe that come a great Malay guy who can rise above race and relgion, S'poreans will surely vote for him. But he needs to win their trust that he's a S'porean Malay, a practitioner of multiculturism supporting a multifaith country; someone squeaky clean, intellectually and financially competent and above all, someone who continues with the present system of meritocracy and who can showcase equality for all regardless of race, religion , class or gender throughout the country. No doubt that day will come when SG values bear fruit.

Before that can happen, the reality is that SG, from the colonial days till currently. is a majority Chinese city. Isn't it natural that people should vote for a Chinese govt? And what fault have you found with any of the govt's MPs, many of whom I have listened to and have most respect for? And why should its citizens be dissentful if they just want to get on with their life and let the goverment work for them?

Have you come across a country where its government does all the work to ensure the people have enough? Yes, I have, but not to the extent as I have experienced in SG. You've often stood by its laws so don't let the imperfections grind at you. I've not known another country where your input is so transparent. If you're not happy now, be patient. Your good work will be rewarded in good time.

It's not an easy task to govern even it it's just a red dot, and if you're standing on that solid rock, don't crack it, lest people start falling or killing each other. It'd be far more purposeful to initiate creative activities, judging from the boundless energy that keep spilling out of you.

[JR8]

[quote="JR8
You're not a believer in freedom of speech or expression Anne?

I think the issue is one of paranoia and ego. Is SG the only country where the state must not be commented on (apart from in state approved ways)? Was the Soviet Union like this?

I believe in freedom of speech even though I can see it doesn't really do much good to any country per se..[/quote]

And can you name a country harmed or hindered by too much freedom of speech?

Look at your allegations above - paranoia, ego etc - all completely out of context with circumstantial evidence.

Of course there is no direct evidence, as none is allowed to exist. Refer: my comment about paranoia.

[color]

Making comments is different from accusing or slandering; most often we can only make judgement from evidence based on deeds or gather facts from alibis who can swear to speak the truth. This is the priinciple we honour so we stick to it. [/color]

The 'we' being SGns who live permanently abroad enjoying all of it's liberties? Whilst at the same time fawning over how great life in an autocracy must be?

[color]

Perjurors get punished - take the case of Clinton. Don't you think he was a good president otherwise? I personally can overlook Clinton's conjugal betrayal but he was responsible to the Americans as head of state , so the whole thing had to go to court.
[/color]

What did Clinton do, apart from, shag his interns, lie under oath in court, and bomb a Sudanese asparin factory? Oh and put in place the 'inclusive' (ACORN etc) 'community lending policies' that led to the forced lending of untold hundreds of billions of $ to households that could never pay it back, that subsequently bust us all. Clinton the grinning puppet, the world-wrecker, much like Blair.

[color]

It's a simialr case here - except that Shradrak didn't exactly court LKY or SG but slander them. [/color]

So what? No one had even heard of him. Let's face it, almost no one has heard of Singapore. It is about as relevant to most of the rest of the world, as a 40 mile field in Kentucky is to the average Sinagporean.


[color]

Shradrak should offer to burn his books and the govt can remove the caning on compasssionate grounds.
A win win ending.[/color]

Burning books. Oh no, you couldn't do that. It's too suggestive of fascism don't you think? Wouldn't want to do that and have the govt presume a comment was being made about them eh?

[sundaymorningstaple]

SMS re the election of a Malay PM as you'd mocked the SG govt with in some other thread, I really believe that come a great Malay guy who can rise above race and relgion, S'poreans will surely vote for him. But he needs to win their trust that he's a S'porean Malay, a practitioner of multiculturism supporting a multifaith country; someone squeaky clean, intellectually and financially competent and above all, someone who continues with the present system of meritocracy (surely you jest) and who can showcase equality for all regardless of race, religion , class or gender throughout the country.

Why should a Malay be held to a higher standard than the other races?

Beyond that, SG is a majority Chinese city. Isn't it natural that people should vote for a Chinese govt? And what fault have you found with any of the govt's MPs, many of whom I have listened to and have most respect for?

As an extremely active grassroots member of the People's Association's Resident's Committee, I also have had the pleasure to meat numerous MPs and Ministers on many occasions. I have no beef with any of them. Although I do have a beef how they are elected, but that is another discussion. Where I come from it's generally called jerrymandering I believe. But as I said, it's another discussion.

Until 1991 the President was not popularly elected but was installed by Parliament. At this juncture there have only been two popularly elected Presidents, one Chinese & one Indian. Of course, there is a vetting system before one can even place their name on the ballot.

Potential candidates must obtain certificates of eligibility from the Presidential Elections Committee (PEC), the function of which is to ensure that such persons have the necessary qualifications to be nominated as a candidate for the election.

So for all intents and purposes this means the potential candidate for President will have to be "clean" enough for the ruling party and from my POV, pliable enough to tow the party line.

It's not an easy task to govern even it it's just a red dot, and if you're standing on that solid rock, don't crack it, lest people start falling or killing each other. It'd be far more purposeful to initiate creative activities, judging from the boundless energy that keep spilling out of you.

I reckon New York City would be harder to govern than the whole of Singapore, and that's just done with a Mayor and city council. And they get paid a heck of a lot less to boot.

[anneteoh]

[quote="JR8
You're not a believer in freedom of speech or expression Anne?

I think the issue is one of paranoia and ego. Is SG the only country where the state must not be commented on (apart from in state approved ways)? Was the Soviet Union like this?

I believe in freedom of speech even though I can see it doesn't really do much good to any country per se..

And can you name a country harmed or hindered by too much freedom of speech?
Britain, bless her, currently has a national debt of 4.8 trillion. That says a lot but no one's prepared to shoulder the resposibilities - students go on the rampage and so on. Freedom of specch hadn't made anyone more intelligent on how to govern the economy etc.

Look at your allegations above - paranoia, ego etc - all completely out of context with circumstantial evidence.

Of course there is no direct evidence, as none is allowed to exist. Refer: my comment about paranoia.

That's not true, JR8.[color]

Making comments is different from accusing or slandering; most often we can only make judgement from evidence based on deeds or gather facts from alibis who can swear to speak the truth. This is the priinciple we honour so we stick to it. [/color]

The 'we' being SGns who live permanently abroad enjoying all of it's liberties? Whilst at the same time fawning over how great life in an autocracy must be?

Err, say, why do you grudge where I live? As an internationalist, I choose not to be nationalistic but realistic. I spoke up in SG as I do now, and when I went to Beijing for a holiday. I'm not S'porean but I tried to get back and wanted to go back there after a stint out there and I'm in the UK for family reasons. I certainly don't have any more liberties in the UK than I would have in SG, France, Malaysia or Sweden. These countries are all my 2nd home countries. That's because I don't go round prescribing others medicine I need for myself. Jealous?SG has an elected government so you're defaming it by calling it an "autocracy." Face the facts - why do you keep barracking SG - I don't believe you've evn lived there that long. Are you trying to do a scoop with a book or something , picking people's brains in this forum?[color]

Perjurors get punished - take the case of Clinton. Don't you think he was a good president otherwise? I personally can overlook Clinton's conjugal betrayal but he was responsible to the Americans as head of state , so the whole thing had to go to court.
[/color]

What did Clinton do, apart from, shag his interns, lie under oath in court, and bomb a Sudanese asparin factory? Oh and put in place the 'inclusive' (ACORN etc) 'community lending policies' that led to the forced lending of untold hundreds of billions of $ to households that could never pay it back, that subsequently bust us all. Clinton the grinning puppet, the world-wrecker, much like Blair.

You're one of those barracking Blair when it's Brown who'd completely lost control over the govt expenditure. It seems that some democratically elected govts simply pass the buck of their debts to the following party taking over. You get a sadistic glee from handing over people such frightful jobs, such as the present Br. govt has on its hands, do you?[color]

It's a simialr case here - except that Shradrak didn't exactly court LKY or SG but slander them. [/color]

So what? No one had even heard of him. Let's face it, almost no one has heard of Singapore. It is about as relevant to most of the rest of the world, as a 40 mile field in Kentucky is to the average Sinagporean.

Sure, why should anyone bother to hear about SG. The less known the less trouble, I'd say. But why do you keep hacking SG - don't you have any other interests in your life? What's this obsession you have for repeatedly attacking SG and its govt. piling on your insults like jealous nutter? Perhaos you should avoid this forum and going to SG altogether so you can keep your sanity. [color]

Shradrak should offer to burn his books and the govt can remove the caning on compasssionate grounds.
A win win ending.[/color]

Burning books. Oh no, you couldn't do that. It's too suggestive of fascism don't you think? Wouldn't want to do that and have the govt presume a comment was being made about them eh?[/quote]

So, who's the paranoid one? Look, China is not a fascist country and Chinese are not fascists. Hardly, though Hitler invited Chiang Kai Shek to join him but Mao opposed that - the Blue Lantern (?) movement. In fact, it was the only country that opened its doors to Jewish refugees in WW2 without any quotas laid.
I somewhat think a book with such a distasteful title should be burnt anyway, considering the gravitas of its context.
Moreover, if it's to defame and slander SG, I don't even want to talk about it.
In fact, JRB, some of the things you pointed out here out shock me about the extent of your hatred for SG. We can never be friends, I'm afraid but I wish you well.

[JR8]

Have you read this book that you wish to be burned?

[anneteoh]

Why should a Malay be held to a higher standard than the other races?
Same standard, no more , no less.

Until 1991 the President was not popularly elected but was installed by Parliament. At this juncture there have only been two popularly elected Presidents, one Chinese & one Indian. Of course, there is a vetting system before one can even place their name on the ballot.

Potential candidates must obtain certificates of eligibility from the Presidential Elections Committee (PEC), the function of which is to ensure that such persons have the necessary qualifications to be nominated as a candidate for the election.

So for all intents and purposes this means the potential candidate for President will have to be "clean" enough for the ruling party and from my POV, pliable enough to tow the party line.

I'd rather a safe and clean govt then the current mess many countries find themselves in currently. All govts should be vetted as it's obvious changes are required in many failing democracies today - what changes? I'm happy with the SD model, so it'll be well placed for you to direct your energy to the failing economies of many countries.

It's not an easy task to govern even it it's just a red dot, and if you're standing on that solid rock, don't crack it, lest people start falling or killing each other. It'd be far more purposeful to initiate creative activities, judging from the boundless energy that keep spilling out of you.

I reckon New York City would be harder to govern than the whole of Singapore, and that's just done with a Mayor and city council. And they get paid a heck of a lot less to boot.

Well, I'm sure they'd be happier with better pay. So where did all that money go to - and there is dire poverty in the ghettoes.

[Wind In My Hair]

But mention of humiliation as part of the punishment - even worse. Diabolical. Not only but especially when this is done to children.

Who would ever want to humiliate their children?

Can people really be that inept at parenting and leadership to resort to such tactics?.

I was obviously referring to prison caning, not caning of children. Many posts in this thread have explained that these are two entirely different things, yet some still get confused. Perhaps because...

One trick for managing your muppets: give one and only one command at a time - anything more short-circuits their already misfiring synapses.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Well, I'm sure they'd be happier with better pay. So where did all that money go to - and there is dire poverty in the ghettoes.

And there's no dire poverty in Singapore? Ever been to Bukit Ho Swee?

It's here as well, but due to the racial HDB policies, the ghetto's are now intermingled with all the rest instead of being all together in one place where they can be watched over and controlled easier if necessary. There are probably less in Singapore on the whole but again, when the government goes to such lengths to hid an unpleasantness from the media, you can be sure the numbers are quite substantial as well. Especially considering there is not social safety nets here (which is either a good or bad thing - again, another discussion).

[anneteoh]

Probably painfully obvious but I didn't know that scarring was always the case. This makes it that much more barbaric in my eyes.

But mention of humiliation as part of the punishment - even worse. Diabolical. Not only but especially when this is done to children.

Who would ever want to humiliate their children?

Can people really be that inept at parenting and leadership to resort to such tactics?

Again, this practice will only perpetuate the mentality.

A detail that appears to have been either overlooked or misunderstood is; when an offender is caned the flesh is left permanently scarred. This would be similar to branding which is what QRM meant.

I wouldn't rule out that change is not possible when the people and govt agree to it.
But if you look at the case ksl presented about the gang of 18 thugs with parangs... well would you rather have caning than the innocent dead, like the high numbers of teenagers being killed in the UK these days? The aim of such a punishment was enforced to deter crime, and over the years, it had.

I don't know how long you've lived in SG or whether you'd read any of its history but there were gangs wielding knives, parangs and probably guns who wouldn't think twice about using violence on others and this type of law was enforced to prevent such acts prevailing.

If you consider caning so bad ourside the historical context of SG, then that's sheer prejudice. Parents have their rights to keep their children on the straight and narrow instead of allowing them to extort, bully or inflict pain on others.
Societies in diferent cultures believe in enforcing different strategies to teach their children, Whichever stategy teaches effectively works. You don't make the golden rule for all.
The worst mentality is one of arrogance, ignorance and violence, a Mr Know All about others. The rest work comparatively to improve their understanding.

[anneteoh]

Have you read this book that you wish to be burned?

Read the context of what I said and stop asking silly questions. Let's just end here JR8 - I'm going into retreat from you.