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Farewell to all

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Wind In My Hair
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Postby Wind In My Hair » Tue, 19 Oct 2010 6:03 pm

It's sad that MS got into trouble for trying to be helpful. I'm not surprised though, as NS policies are shrouded in secrecy and I was wondering how he got away with saying on a public forum that his advice was based on insider information.

Just my two cents - I wouldn't go on about printing and archiving the posts. The less the impact of the 'leak', the less he has to account for. For MS' sake just let it go.

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Postby Strong Eagle » Tue, 19 Oct 2010 6:07 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:It's sad that MS got into trouble for trying to be helpful. I'm not surprised though, as NS policies are shrouded in secrecy and I was wondering how he got away with saying on a public forum that his advice was based on insider information.

Just my two cents - I wouldn't go on about printing and archiving the posts. The less the impact of the 'leak', the less he has to account for. For MS' sake just let it go.


WIMH, I will do nothing personally that would damage or add insult to injury. We'll get this sorted as the facts come out. MS is a good guy.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Tue, 19 Oct 2010 6:26 pm

SE, sorry I wasn't referring to you in particular. Just making a general suggestion as it's been mentioned by a few posters. This thread is being followed very closely for sure (hi there whoever!) and suspicions that the sensitive posts are being preserved despite MS deleting them would spark even more paranoia.

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Postby Strong Eagle » Tue, 19 Oct 2010 6:34 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:SE, sorry I wasn't referring to you in particular. Just making a general suggestion as it's been mentioned by a few posters. This thread is being followed very closely for sure (hi there whoever!) and suspicions that the sensitive posts are being preserved despite MS deleting them would spark even more paranoia.


It strikes me as a tempest in a teapot, and pretty silly on the part of those who would censure MS.

If you read his posts, he never once advocated doing anything underhanded. He often counseled that people should consider the long term interests of their children before taking any actions affecting NS. He never advocated anything illegal. If anything, he supported, and supports, NS.

And he provided information about the laws and about the process. Those that seek to censure MS seem to miss the boat. Certainly Singapore has its own laws and way of doing things, yet I've never seen a government official that attempted to keep the people in the dark about what the law is.

And yet, at first blush, it would appear that is exactly what is happening here. Someone or something wishes to suppress knowledge of the law and process.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Tue, 19 Oct 2010 6:57 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:Certainly Singapore has its own laws and way of doing things, yet I've never seen a government official that attempted to keep the people in the dark about what the law is.

And yet, at first blush, it would appear that is exactly what is happening here. Someone or something wishes to suppress knowledge of the law and process.

I suspect most government officials don't really know what the law is. The penal code is an awful document to read and try to comprehend. So they just do what their superiors tell them.

Transparency is not the strong suit of some ministries. While guidelines exist, very often they want the prerogative of making decisions for reasons they don't have to disclose. That is why merely providing facts of how past cases were processed can be an issue. Perhaps also they deal with too many people trying to circumvent NS and don't want someone out there to write The NS Dodger's Manual.

Hopefully after investigating they will find that MS's postings were all above board and invite him to compile an FAQ page for Mindef's website. This would make a lot of lives easier, including the bureaucrats processing the mountains of paperwork that would be less necessary if people knew more clearly where they stood in the first place.

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Postby Strong Eagle » Tue, 19 Oct 2010 7:20 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:Hopefully after investigating they will find that MS's postings were all above board and invite him to compile an FAQ page for Mindef's website. This would make a lot of lives easier, including the bureaucrats processing the mountains of paperwork that would be less necessary if people knew more clearly where they stood in the first place.


This is what I like about you, WIMH... seeing the positive in a pile of negatives. I hope MS gets to do this.

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Postby raden888 » Tue, 19 Oct 2010 11:22 pm

hey MS your insights have been very helpful. Cheerio you will be missed.

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Re: Farewell to all

Postby Koalabear » Tue, 19 Oct 2010 11:36 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:
Mad Scientist wrote:I was given three days to remove all of my posting.
MS


This is crazy. Who gave you three days to remove all your posts?

Utterly insane.


What surprised me is the delay they took when implementing actions against you since you first post on forum. When they start doing eventually, they give you a crazy timeline. Wtf? I agree you don't have much of chance against them since you call Singapore home. What to do? lan lan suck thumb loh.

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Postby Koalabear » Tue, 19 Oct 2010 11:43 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:
Strong Eagle wrote:Certainly Singapore has its own laws and way of doing things, yet I've never seen a government official that attempted to keep the people in the dark about what the law is.

And yet, at first blush, it would appear that is exactly what is happening here. Someone or something wishes to suppress knowledge of the law and process.

I suspect most government officials don't really know what the law is. The penal code is an awful document to read and try to comprehend. So they just do what their superiors tell them.

Transparency is not the strong suit of some ministries. While guidelines exist, very often they want the prerogative of making decisions for reasons they don't have to disclose. That is why merely providing facts of how past cases were processed can be an issue. Perhaps also they deal with too many people trying to circumvent NS and don't want someone out there to write The NS Dodger's Manual.

Hopefully after investigating they will find that MS's postings were all above board and invite him to compile an FAQ page for Mindef's website. This would make a lot of lives easier, including the bureaucrats processing the mountains of paperwork that would be less necessary if people knew more clearly where they stood in the first place.


Maybe you cant disclose previous specific cases but is it even illegal to advise parents on some of the obscure policies Mindef has? Some time later we will be shot for telling parents they have to file intent on renunciation before age 13.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:16 am

Koalabear wrote:is it even illegal to advise parents on some of the obscure policies Mindef has?

I don't know if the obscurity is deliberate or due to bureaucratic overkill. Here's something to cheer MS if he is reading, and to amuse the rest of you. From "Goh Keng Swee: A Portrait" by Tan Siok Sun (page 145):

One of GKS's constant worries was that Singapore's armed forces would one day become complacent, thus losing their alertness and fighting spirit. Indeed, so concerned was he about complacency that he once told his librarian that "anyone could slip chunks of statistics from the National Estimates into an army document, and no one would notice." To test his theory, GKS inserted into a general circular a fairly long extract on the Flood from the Bible's Book of Genesis, before widely circulating it to all the various divisions and departments in the Ministry of Defence. His experiment met with mixed results.

Most recipients were perplexed, to say the least - but in a comical bid to conceal their ignorance, they either forwarded the circular to their subordinates, with the words "For your necessary action", or "Noted and filed". Since the passage had mentioned floods, the Army officers sent it to the Navy officers "for action". The more imaginative officers interpreted the extract as instructions to send two representatives from each company to assemble forty days later...

Only one officer, according to GKS, had the common sense to ask in exasperation, "What on earth is this circular all about, and who sent it?"


May common sense prevail in the treatment of MS, and one day lift the fog surrounding NS policy.

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Postby nakatago » Wed, 20 Oct 2010 12:26 pm

We need to rally to restore common sense.

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Postby ksl » Wed, 20 Oct 2010 1:35 pm

Koalabear wrote:
Wind In My Hair wrote:
Strong Eagle wrote:Certainly Singapore has its own laws and way of doing things, yet I've never seen a government official that attempted to keep the people in the dark about what the law is.

And yet, at first blush, it would appear that is exactly what is happening here. Someone or something wishes to suppress knowledge of the law and process.

I suspect most government officials don't really know what the law is. The penal code is an awful document to read and try to comprehend. So they just do what their superiors tell them.

Transparency is not the strong suit of some ministries. While guidelines exist, very often they want the prerogative of making decisions for reasons they don't have to disclose. That is why merely providing facts of how past cases were processed can be an issue. Perhaps also they deal with too many people trying to circumvent NS and don't want someone out there to write The NS Dodger's Manual.

Hopefully after investigating they will find that MS's postings were all above board and invite him to compile an FAQ page for Mindef's website. This would make a lot of lives easier, including the bureaucrats processing the mountains of paperwork that would be less necessary if people knew more clearly where they stood in the first place.


Maybe you cant disclose previous specific cases but is it even illegal to advise parents on some of the obscure policies Mindef has? Some time later we will be shot for telling parents they have to file intent on renunciation before age 13.
It is illegal to discuss confidentiality of Military procedures full stop in the UK, so I can imagine their will be some sort of similar act in Singapore. one is under the official secrets act for around 25 years in UK, being an ex pro I know for sure information is kept out of the public domain.

MS was well aware of the risk he was taking...one must understand that it is all to do with national security, which civilians wouldn't really perceive has a problem. Though if you compare it to a business or a Company, you don't wish your weaknesses to be exposed in the public domain do you.

Military is a sensitive area, we all know that. MS was well aware of it, though like a good soldier he pushes the boundaries of what is right and what is wrong, to find out how far he can go, now he knows.

He will be okay I should think, a slapped wrist and a sever talking too is all i ever had on many occasions, and i left with an exemplary record, which i refused to sign, one cannot fight the bureaucratic system, you must flow with it. (Oh the reason I didn't sign my Military testimonial was that the person that wrote it, didn't know me, and didn't know what my position was in The Corps. He was a colonel that I shared 5 days sailing with in the North Sea other than that we never knew each other, so why should i accept a total strangers interpretation of my work ethic, Insult to injury, they mentioned my reason for purchasing my contract back from the military, which was personal because i was going through a divorce. I found the phrase irrelevant as the testimonial was supposed to be made with regards to finding civilian employment.) I have never used it anyway.

This affair is best evidence yet that the wheels turn in accordance with SOP's Standard Operating Procedures, a lesson is learnt, to act otherwise would be quite foolish for him and also for everyone that gets involved, becuase it's a national security issue.
Last edited by ksl on Wed, 20 Oct 2010 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Asian_Geekette » Wed, 20 Oct 2010 5:24 pm

Good heavens! I've been away from the board for a few weeks and I get good news and bad news...

Bad news first: MS is leaving... You'll be missed! I've enjoyed your posts a lot. I've learned a lot from what you wrote. Too bad that you have been forced to leave.

Good news: I see Wind In My Hair posting again. :)
My business is not to remake myself, but make the absolute best out of what God made. -Robert Browning

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Wed, 20 Oct 2010 8:48 pm

Hello Asian Geekette!

Thanks for counting me in the good news category, though I'm sure that to some here I'm bad news! Yep I decided to come back and test my new found zen-ness to see how long it lasts :D

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 21 Oct 2010 3:06 am

My problem with all this is the fact that MS is no longer a citizen nor is his family for many years. Therefore the gahmen would have little sway over him. What I see is maybe some in his network are being hauled over the coals for being part of the information network and maybe they have been censured until he has removed the information. Too many unknowns and no response either publicly or privately.


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