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CCP Party Leaders Call for Free Speech.

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CCP Party Leaders Call for Free Speech.

Postby nakatago » Thu, 14 Oct 2010 11:00 am

This is a doozy: http://cmp.hku.hk/2010/10/13/8035/ (text available in both English and Chinese).

But how "free" is free?

Excerpts:

[quote="The CCP Party Leaders"]Article 35 of China’s Constitution as adopted in 1982 clearly states that: “Citizens of the People’s Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.”

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Postby teck21 » Fri, 15 Oct 2010 10:36 am

Perhaps as free as Singapore?

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Re: CCP Party Leaders Call for Free Speech.

Postby carlsum1986 » Fri, 15 Oct 2010 10:55 am

[quote="nakatago"]This is a doozy: http://cmp.hku.hk/2010/10/13/8035/ (text available in both English and Chinese).

But how "free" is free?

Excerpts:

[quote="The CCP Party Leaders"]Article 35 of China’s Constitution as adopted in 1982 clearly states that: “Citizens of the People’s Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.”

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Postby teck21 » Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:25 am

Carl, people here can speak freely and openly in the streets. You don't have your siblings, neighbours or friends spying on you and reporting your thoughts to any government agency.

Short of having a spy network like this, no government can prevent its people from speaking freely about anything among their friends, or to a taxi driver etc.

It's when one tries to reach out to large numbers to speak up on these issues (or any issue for that matter) that all sorts of permits have to be applied for. And subsequently rejected. And then you may find someone on your tail. :)

Singapore is not a police state. It really doesn't need to be.

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Postby carlsum1986 » Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:39 am

teck21 wrote:Carl, people here can speak freely and openly in the streets. You don't have your siblings, neighbours or friends spying on you and reporting your thoughts to any government agency.

Short of having a spy network like this, no government can prevent its people from speaking freely about anything among their friends, or to a taxi driver etc.

It's when one tries to reach out to large numbers to speak up on these issues (or any issue for that matter) that all sorts of permits have to be applied for. And subsequently rejected. And then you may find someone on your tail. :)

Singapore is not a police state. It really doesn't need to be.


not a police state u are kidding me arent u.....what happened to fine fine fine and everything will be fine.....I have friends who have been cautioned cause they were talking among themselves that they didnt like the current gahmen and their ideas.....ppl are not allowed to speak their mind here.....the newspapers which are supposed to be free and unbiased so that censored and only the right and suitable news gets published which is the main reason i gave upp on the papers a few months back......if ppl can speak freely and openly in the streets i dont see why allot of ppl go online to various sites just to voice out and direct slander towards the ppl in power....

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Mon, 18 Oct 2010 1:26 pm

carlsum1986 wrote:not a police state u are kidding me arent u.....what happened to fine fine fine and everything will be fine...

This logic would make any country with laws a police state. Having fines for vandalism and littering, even if you disagree with the details, does not make a country a police state.

carlsum1986 wrote:I have friends who have been cautioned cause they were talking among themselves that they didnt like the current gahmen and their ideas...

Cautioned by who? By whip-wielding government officials or fearful quivering citizens? Or by other expats spreading their own brand of urban legend? Locals complain about the gahmen all the time... just go to any coffeeshop or talk to taxi drivers and get a feel of the man in the street.

carlsum1986 wrote:the newspapers which are supposed to be free and unbiased so that censored and only the right and suitable news gets published which is the main reason i gave upp on the papers a few months back...

It's generally recognised that the main paper toes the official line, and does not pretend to be free and unbiased. I would agree that the press does not have freedom of speech because of certain notions about social responsibility. This doesn't mean that you and I, as individuals, need to censor every word we say. It's a different ball game.

carlsum1986 wrote:if ppl can speak freely and openly in the streets i dont see why allot of ppl go online to various sites just to voice out and direct slander towards the ppl in power....

This logic again doesn't make sense. You're much more likely to get caught by posting online where your IP address can be traced and what you say is recorded in black and white. Venting in written form online is much riskier and therefore probably a diluted fraction of the venting that goes on offline. So by your logic there must be a lot of free and open speaking in the streets :)

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Postby Nath21 » Mon, 18 Oct 2010 4:41 pm

You have to be kidding on Singapore. Head in the sand. It aint "expat urban myths". There are too many information sites to list.

28 Jul 2010 ... "Free speech is an endangered species in Singapore," said Phil Robertson, deputy Asia director at Human Rights Watch.

Check out this very good article says it all:
http://www.ncbuy.com/reference/country/ ... =sn&sec=2a
or 2010 Electronic Police state annual ratings- Singapore ranked 7th
or any freedon of speech and human rights group will have singapore high on their list. Even no free speech in parliament due to opposition members asking to many questions. Highest paid public servants in the world but thats so they wont accept bribes. What a beautiful arguement. Does that mean they are all corrupt deep down so we must pay them high salaries. Have a look at nepotism practices of ruling elite working for GIC and Tamesek.
Tried watching tv here half the time I cant work out what happened because key parts were cut, then I get up and read the paper and stocks up, government doing good job, aunties fighting at the wet market but all happy times.
But lets face it no one in singapore actually cares so its not a real issue inside Singapore. Its a one party state with a ruling elite and a compulsory army service to indoctrinate and build nationalism. Its actually a beautiful system to behold. Just hope GIC and Tamesek dont go broke because thats when the wheels will fall off. Everyone happy making money!

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Postby carlsum1986 » Mon, 18 Oct 2010 4:54 pm

Nath21 wrote:You have to be kidding on Singapore. Head in the sand. It aint "expat urban myths". There are too many information sites to list.

28 Jul 2010 ... "Free speech is an endangered species in Singapore," said Phil Robertson, deputy Asia director at Human Rights Watch.

Check out this very good article says it all:
http://www.ncbuy.com/reference/country/ ... =sn&sec=2a
or 2010 Electronic Police state annual ratings- Singapore ranked 7th
or any freedon of speech and human rights group will have singapore high on their list. Even no free speech in parliament due to opposition members asking to many questions. Highest paid public servants in the world but thats so they wont accept bribes. What a beautiful arguement. Does that mean they are all corrupt deep down so we must pay them high salaries. Have a look at nepotism practices of ruling elite working for GIC and Tamesek.
Tried watching tv here half the time I cant work out what happened because key parts were cut, then I get up and read the paper and stocks up, government doing good job, aunties fighting at the wet market but all happy times.
But lets face it no one in singapore actually cares so its not a real issue inside Singapore. Its a one party state with a ruling elite and a compulsory army service to indoctrinate and build nationalism. Its actually a beautiful system to behold. Just hope GIC and Tamesek dont go broke because thats when the wheels will fall off. Everyone happy making money!


well there are always two sides to a coin...they are entitled to what they think and we are entitled to what we think...
it just a matter of whether they accept the opinions of others or they want to continue doing what they do best....

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Postby nakatago » Mon, 18 Oct 2010 4:55 pm

Nath21 wrote:But lets face it no one in singapore actually cares so its not a real issue inside Singapore. Its a one party state with a ruling elite and a compulsory army service to indoctrinate and build nationalism.


...and from what I gather, a similar setup is now happening in China. A rapidly emerging middle class ain't complaining about civil rights as long as they get to live cushy lives.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Tue, 19 Oct 2010 7:20 pm

Nath21, I agree that of political freedoms, alas, we have few. If you wanted to organise a demonstration or make a public speech or write a book about the system, then yes you have to be careful what you say.

However I was responding to Carlsum's comment that friends talking among themselves in a private setting have to be cautious. It's ridiculous to believe that every word you say to friends is being recorded and reported. You should feel free to speak freely amongst yourselves. However, if you choose to live in hushed fear then go ahead. Don't say I didn't try to help you breathe easier during your time here, that's all.

nakatago wrote:...and from what I gather, a similar setup is now happening in China. A rapidly emerging middle class ain't complaining about civil rights as long as they get to live cushy lives.

Someone once said... whatever you think, one billion Chinese don't care :) Many mainlanders, like Singaporeans, will feel quite offended if foreigners try to tell them how to think and armtwist them into following western norms. Mutual respect and efforts to understand rather than preach will go a long way in China, as it will here and in most places.

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Postby carlsum1986 » Tue, 19 Oct 2010 8:20 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:Nath21, I agree that of political freedoms, alas, we have few. If you wanted to organise a demonstration or make a public speech or write a book about the system, then yes you have to be careful what you say.

However I was responding to Carlsum's comment that friends talking among themselves in a private setting have to be cautious. It's ridiculous to believe that every word you say to friends is being recorded and reported. You should feel free to speak freely amongst yourselves. However, if you choose to live in hushed fear then go ahead. Don't say I didn't try to help you breathe easier during your time here, that's all.

nakatago wrote:...and from what I gather, a similar setup is now happening in China. A rapidly emerging middle class ain't complaining about civil rights as long as they get to live cushy lives.

Someone once said... whatever you think, one billion Chinese don't care :) Many mainlanders, like Singaporeans, will feel quite offended if foreigners try to tell them how to think and armtwist them into following western norms. Mutual respect and efforts to understand rather than preach will go a long way in China, as it will here and in most places.


it was not watching what we say or spies being everywhere..however my friend did get an official warning for saying something bad about the g**men when they were just sitting around in the coffee shop just chatting....

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Postby raden888 » Tue, 19 Oct 2010 11:39 pm

China will be the next Singapore or Singapore the next China?

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:27 am

carlsum1986 wrote:it was not watching what we say or spies being everywhere..however my friend did get an official warning for saying something bad about the g**men when they were just sitting around in the coffee shop just chatting....

You are kidding? An official warning printed on government letterhead saying "I refer to your comment on [date] at [coffeeshop name]..."?

Firstly, who sent the letter (Ministry of Home Affairs / Internal Security Department / Prime Minister's Office etc)?

Secondly, what proof did the letter provide that your friend had said whatever he did?

Thirdly, which section of the penal code did the letter say had been violated and did it threaten a fine or jail term for a repeat offence?

Curiouser and curiouser.

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 20 Oct 2010 12:15 pm

You are kidding? An official warning printed on government letterhead saying "I refer to your comment on [date] at [coffeeshop name]..."?

:) :D ah, thank you :)

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Postby Strong Eagle » Wed, 20 Oct 2010 12:23 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:You are kidding? An official warning printed on government letterhead saying "I refer to your comment on [date] at [coffeeshop name]..."?


:D :o :) :lol: You owe me a kopi and a keyboard cleaning.

or... [in City Cab, taxi number xxxx], where driver commented that next LKY would be elected to the position of God.


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