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renouncing citizenship & NS

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dbb01
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renouncing citizenship & NS

Postby dbb01 » Fri, 27 Aug 2010 4:24 pm

Hi,

I am new here and was wondering if I could seek some advice. My husband and I are Singaporeans but I am soon to take up my British citizenship. We have been based overseas for many years and will probably continue to do so unless things change and we have to return to Singapore. We are currently expecting a baby boy and from what I have read here, I would like to start to plan ahead to avoid a whole mess. Obviously, the easiest solution would be to have the baby in the UK or any overseas country and not register him as a Singaporean but for personal reasons, we would like to give birth in Singapore, meaning the baby will be a Singaporean due to his father and place of birth. Now, I have read through many posts here and have come to the following conclusion if I want to avoid NS for my son or at least give him the choice of deciding whether he wants to serve NS. Please correct me if I am wrong and help me with my questions. Many thanks.

1. Assuming we are in Singapore, leave Singapore before 11 or 13 - we are hoping for 13 as if we are in Singapore, this would let him finish his primary school education and also ties in with the timing for a british boarding school. But would this have any adverse impact on his ability to defer and renounce his citizenship?

2. When he is 13, write to ICA and MinDef to announce intention to renounce citizenship. Apply for an exit permit, citing overseas study.

3. Ensure that he does not have a valid Singapore passport from the age of 11 and don't collect his NRIC - if we apply for a Singapore passport for him but do not renew it past the age of 11 (i.e. have 2 5-year validity passports), is this ok? I believe we should surrender the expired passports at an overseas consular or to ICA?

4. Register for NS at 16.5 and formally ask for deferment to 21 - do we submit the form for deferment at this time or do we submit earlier since the form can be submitted from age 13?

Other questions:

1. As mentioned, his father is a Singaporean. I have read that it is best for both parents to give up citizenship to ensure that the deferment has the highest chance of going through. Is this true? If it is, does the father need to have the foreign citizenship at 13 or 16.5 when we formally request for deferment. This is because even if we go overseas with our kid at 11/13, it will take a few years for him to get his british citizenship which might only come through when the kid is 16.

2. At the age of 21, if the kid decides not to give up his Singapore citizenship, can he just go back to serve NS or does he have to renounce his citizenship as he has stated his intention to do so previously.

3. Also, at age 21, if he has a few months left (< 6m) to complete his uni but is perfectly willing to go back to serve his NS instead of renouncing, will he be able to get an extension? I am calculating that my baby will be born early next year and going by the british system, he will probably finish uni in june the year he turns 21, which means a few months difference.

4. Lastly, this question is for me. If I renounce my Singapore citizenship to take up the British one, would I be able to work/live in Singapore subsequently? From what I read, the chances are slim but as I am not a male, would this be easier for me?

Many thanks in advance for all your help and sorry for the lengthy post.

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Re: renouncing citizenship & NS

Postby Mad Scientist » Sat, 28 Aug 2010 10:49 am

dbb01 wrote:Hi,


1. Assuming we are in Singapore, leave Singapore before 11 or 13 - we are hoping for 13 as if we are in Singapore, this would let him finish his primary school education and also ties in with the timing for a british boarding school. But would this have any adverse impact on his ability to defer and renounce his citizenship?

Depends , if you follow the steps to the T , you should be alright . BEFORE 13 is the latest

2. When he is 13, write to ICA and MinDef to announce intention to renounce citizenship. Apply for an exit permit, citing overseas study.

Correct

3. Ensure that he does not have a valid Singapore passport from the age of 11 and don't collect his NRIC - if we apply for a Singapore passport for him but do not renew it past the age of 11 (i.e. have 2 5-year validity passports), is this ok? I believe we should surrender the expired passports at an overseas consular or to ICA?

Correct that's the plan

4. Register for NS at 16.5 and formally ask for deferment to 21 - do we submit the form for deferment at this time or do we submit earlier since the form can be submitted from age 13?

Once your application to renounce is accepted. Another set of docs. "Application for Deferment till 21 prior renounciation" will be posted to you. CMPB will register your child for NS automatically at 16.5 and they will send a letter to provide you another EP which will last till 21 prior renounciation. Unless son status changes in terms of residency, he will be allowed to renounce by then.

Other questions:

1. As mentioned, his father is a Singaporean. I have read that it is best for both parents to give up citizenship to ensure that the deferment has the highest chance of going through. Is this true? If it is, does the father need to have the foreign citizenship at 13 or 16.5 when we formally request for deferment. This is because even if we go overseas with our kid at 11/13, it will take a few years for him to get his british citizenship which might only come through when the kid is 16.

Correct it does carries weight. Dad must have foreign citizenship at the earliest possible time and apply to renounce SG Citizenship by 13

2. At the age of 21, if the kid decides not to give up his Singapore citizenship, can he just go back to serve NS or does he have to renounce his citizenship as he has stated his intention to do so previously.

Correct but at 21 he needs to take pledge "Oath of allegiance to SG and renounce Bri Citizenship vice versa.

3. Also, at age 21, if he has a few months left (< 6m) to complete his uni but is perfectly willing to go back to serve his NS instead of renouncing, will he be able to get an extension? I am calculating that my baby will be born early next year and going by the british system, he will probably finish uni in june the year he turns 21, which means a few months difference.

Yes you can do that but still need to decide which citizenship to hold after 21

4. Lastly, this question is for me. If I renounce my Singapore citizenship to take up the British one, would I be able to work/live in Singapore subsequently? From what I read, the chances are slim but as I am not a male, would this be easier for me?

NO way SISTER . Visit yes, PR / WORK IMPOSSIBLE unless Harry pass away

Many thanks in advance for all your help and sorry for the lengthy post.
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Postby Koalabear » Sun, 29 Aug 2010 6:09 am

one question:

how is it possible for a 13 year old kid to leave Singapore when he cannot carry a valid Singapore passport past the age of 11? Am I missing something here?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:44 pm

If they leave it to the last minute, e.g., 13 as they are planning, they are going to get burned. They are going to have to make some hard decisions that will affect the child for the rest of his life. Trying to maximize the socio-economic benefits BEFORE leaving will just show the government that they are trying to abuse the system as their exit is about getting the maximum benefit before leaving and not the desire to just immigrate. Trying to get the most schooling from Singabore before exiting is NOT the way to do it. Trying to time it down to the month to leave is pure foolishness IMHO. All the government has to do is delay they answer by a couple of weeks and the kid is screwed. It would appear that they are only trying to get the kid out of NS and not because of any real desire to immigrate.

For a citizen, it's okay to carry that passport until it expires and the kid would still be under 16 with a five year passport acquired before the 11th birthday. NS Registration is at 16.5. The child should already have filed the letter of intent to renounce at age 13 and hopefully, will have returned the passport to the Singapore Consulate at their destination country after arriving in that country just to make the break clean. As MS noted, they parents should also have made a clean break with Singapore as well by then otherwise, appearances are not that good.

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Postby dbb01 » Mon, 30 Aug 2010 5:06 pm

Many thanks for all your response.

Koalabear, my kid will have british citizenship by birth and will qualify for a british passport to leave the country without using the SG passport so don't intend to renew/hold a valid passport after 11.

SMS, just to clarify, we are hoping to bring the kid overseas at age 12.5 (leaving abt 6m to <1 year before he turns 13). Would this be a bad idea? I guess the other idea is not to finish primary schooling which is fine but as overseas schools start in sept, we will face the same situation as we will end up bringing the kid out in sept and he will turn 13 the following year.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Mon, 30 Aug 2010 5:19 pm

Actually if you want to save all the trouble of wanting to get some schooling in SG but not wanting to have SG PP. This is how you do it.
Give birth in UK
Register within one year SG Citizenship either thru SG Mission overseas or coming back to SG to do it at ICA. The latter one is much easier as no question ask.SG Citizenship by descent is granted for child given birth overseas by SG parent.
Once that, get the stamp right of entry on his UK PP. You do not even need to hold SG PP.
He still enjoy the same benefit as local Sger .
Just make sure he left b4 13 that is all.

Does this makes a better plan than yours ?
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Postby dbb01 » Mon, 30 Aug 2010 6:33 pm

MS, yes, we did think of that but unfortunately, due to personal (health) reasons, it is better to give birth in SG. Which is why we are now stuck as we could have avoided all these problems if we give birth overseas and not register as Sger.

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Postby Koalabear » Mon, 30 Aug 2010 10:57 pm

dbb01 wrote:Many thanks for all your response.

Koalabear, my kid will have british citizenship by birth and will qualify for a british passport to leave the country without using the SG passport so don't intend to renew/hold a valid passport after 11.

SMS, just to clarify, we are hoping to bring the kid overseas at age 12.5 (leaving abt 6m to <1 year before he turns 13). Would this be a bad idea? I guess the other idea is not to finish primary schooling which is fine but as overseas schools start in sept, we will face the same situation as we will end up bringing the kid out in sept and he will turn 13 the following year.


I thought the system is designed to prevent your kid from completing PSLE and therefore add inconvenience to you. Which month was he born? Sounds like he stand a better chance born in december than january if you aim to maximize the "benefit" aka PSLE

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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 31 Aug 2010 4:12 am

dbb01 wrote:MS, yes, we did think of that but unfortunately, due to personal (health) reasons, it is better to give birth in SG. Which is why we are now stuck as we could have avoided all these problems if we give birth overseas and not register as Sger.


OP

The question in contention in order for him to renounce and BE ALLOWED to renounce is whether he has enjoyed socio economic benefit of SG after the age of 13. Whatever your reason for giving birth in SG that is your choice but whatever action you take must be watertight or else your child will suffer for the rest of his life thru no fault of his
I had one discussion , a lengthy one by one forumer JKTMOM recently. Her son left SG when he was 5 weeks. Travel back and forth till 15 using SG PP as his foreign PP only come to light when he was 15 due to foreign country guideline. Only social visit NOT even schooling here . Tried to get deferment to renounce DENIED apart from failing to extend his EP after 15. MINDEF said he has enjoyed socio economic benefit although stop using SG PP after 15..
Your plan is hypothetical if everything falls into place
Food for thought
1. Both parent attained Brit PP and renounce SG Citizenship. Give birth in SG. Apply Brit PP and citizenship at British High Comm in SG . 14 day after give birth to register UK Citizenship. 42 days to get child LTSVP under SG or SPR sponsor
2. DAD still Sger. Mom Brit. give birth in SG. Gain SG BC for child BUT apply UK Citizenship and UK PP for child. Get ICA to stamp right of entry on UK PP for him to stay. The concern is whether ICA would allow that stamped or not as standard BOG SG BC and SG BC by descent for child born overseas to a SG Parent is Pink with guidlines overleaf are different.
3. Do the same like No.2 first part BUT get student visa but did not get SG PP whatever.
4. Maternal care by grandparent under LTSVP is another route .Custody of child is under grandparent or sibling ON PAPER only to satisfy ICA.
I have not research this in length so these are only my thoughts.

At the end of the day, try your best not to hold SG PP as parents tend to foul up on the dates and timeline
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Postby dbb01 » Wed, 01 Sep 2010 11:53 am

MS, many thanks for your advice. Will think abt not getting an SG passport and using his foreign passport and get the relevant stamps/visa.

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Postby manutdfan » Wed, 01 Sep 2010 5:00 pm

dbb01 wrote:MS, many thanks for your advice. Will think abt not getting an SG passport and using his foreign passport and get the relevant stamps/visa.


This is essentially what I did for my son - my wife is Singaporean, he was born in the UK. He is now in Singapore on a DP.

I'm curious though - you're clearly pregnant, clearly planning to have the kid in Singapore, and yet you're about to take up British citizenship despite not being resident there and again from what you've said you're planning to remain living in Singapore for at least the next ten years.

According to http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... uirements/ one of the requirements for British naturalisation is that "You must intend to continue living in the UK, or to continue in Crown service, the service of an international organisation of which the UK is a member, or the service of a company or association established in the UK." Are you planning to do that?

On top of that, you're required to be absent no more than 90 days in the last 12 months.

If not, then you could be in breach of UK laws - and I'm not sure what the consequences there are (I presume the worst case scenario is you could end up effectively stateless if the Home Office decided to remove your citizenship and you'd renounced your Singapore citizenship).

T.

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Postby dbb01 » Wed, 01 Sep 2010 6:59 pm

manutdfan, I have no problems with getting a british citizenship as I meet all the requirements and not in breach of any rules as we are still based in the UK and intend to remain there for some time. The reason for this post is to find out the consequences of giving birth in SG (which we want to do) and what would happen if we decide to relocate back to SG sometime in the future (which is a possibility as no one knows the future).

For british citizenship, as long as you have the intention to stay in the UK at the time of application (which we do), even if these plans change in the future (which the UKBA allows for), it doesn't mean that you haven't met the requirements and they will revoke the citizenship. But thanks for your concern.

Could I find out if you are are British and Singapore PR? Did you register your child as SGer or simply avoided the whole issue and made him British?

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Postby manutdfan » Wed, 01 Sep 2010 10:30 pm

dbb01 wrote:manutdfan, I have no problems with getting a british citizenship as I meet all the requirements and not in breach of any rules as we are still based in the UK and intend to remain there for some time. The reason for this post is to find out the consequences of giving birth in SG (which we want to do) and what would happen if we decide to relocate back to SG sometime in the future (which is a possibility as no one knows the future).


I have to say I wonder about the sanity of someone who is currently in the UK going back to Singapore to give birth when the NHS is certainly not significantly worse than Singapore, a lot cheaper and doesn't give you all these complex, but personal has experience has taught me never to argue with a pregnant Singaporean :)

Having said that, a number of posters to this forum have found it difficult to return to Singapore to live having given up Singapore citizenship, so be aware you may be closing the door to relocating back to SG sometime in the future.

dbb01 wrote:For british citizenship, as long as you have the intention to stay in the UK at the time of application (which we do), even if these plans change in the future (which the UKBA allows for), it doesn't mean that you haven't met the requirements and they will revoke the citizenship. But thanks for your concern.

Could I find out if you are are British and Singapore PR? Did you register your child as SGer or simply avoided the whole issue and made him British?


I am British - I met my wife in England and we got married in Singapore but we were both living in England at the time. I am now on an EP here and in Singapore.

My son was born in England, and at my insistence we did not register him as an SGer - when we moved here, we got him a DP on the back of my EP. My daughter is a SGer and a UKer.

I believe that if my son wishes to claim his privileges as a Singapore citizen he can do so when he's a lot older, but he will still need to do his NS. If he doesn't want to be an SGer, then he's safe from any NS liability (unless of course I decide to apply for a PR in which case he's probably going to have to do it anyway!).

T.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Thu, 02 Sep 2010 2:10 am

Dbb01, what manutdfan did is one route you can go but he is a Brit not Sger like you. So it does not fit your plan .
BTW I have checked with my kid sister (lawyer). Custodial care by a maternal grandparent to sponsor your child for LTSVP is possible. Of course , paperworks need to be done
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Postby dbb01 » Thu, 02 Sep 2010 2:27 pm

manutdfan, tks for your insight. It is nice to hear from someone who has done something similar although we are not exactly in the same situation.

MS, many thanks for all your help and checking things out for me. Its a lot of food for thought. Tks!


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