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JR8
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Re: Read carefully before you judge

Postby JR8 » Wed, 25 Aug 2010 4:32 am

anneteoh wrote:
x9200 wrote:Oh, I missed this one - thank you JR8 :)

anneteoh wrote:
x9200 wrote:This is more general remark so MS, please do not take it personally.
What you've been persistently doing in this thread is proving something what nobody even challenged. Just opposite, I think I stated this like few times - many things are not done fair and you can not openly challenge the system. At the same time you clearly neglect to acknowledge that you, your mindset, mentality is very different from majority of Singaporeans. You judge the system and somebody feelings by your own specific values. If this is so bad as you telling why almost everybody wants to migrate here? Are Singaporeans free to leave or are forced to suffer under this "dictatorship"? Suharto, Marcos, Mahathir, are their nations enjoying the same wealth and wellbeing as Singaporeans? Am I missing something here?
Yes, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely but that's the point - I do not really see this absolute corruption in Singapore. I see limitations to the freedom but I also see a well organized and surprisingly well running socialistic enterprise and for this he has my credit.


I really suggest you read carefully re my own opinion of SG and get your facts right. And obviously, check your literacy levels before you get to talk about my mindset. What do you know. I wouldn't have that presumption even when I think I can place you with regards to personal profiling.LOL

I'm not bashing SG or its leadership, just trying to assuage the rumbling dissents - that's the gist of my reponse.

This summarises the whole point - anything can be misconstrued. I reckon in politics, people's literacy levels must be of a standard of transparent understanding or they shouldn't bother to participate discussing politics. Be aware that politicains have more clout to libel accusations or slander. Hence, it's trouble free to engage your interests elsewhere.

Who says I said there's corruption in SG? What kind of reporter are you to have come to that conclusion BTW?



Anne, you and your issues again. Telling me about my literacy and not being able to make a logical sense out of few simple, plain English sentences. I am only responding to this creation of yours to straighten things up. Read it again. Use wet tissue on your forehead to avoid overheating of the CPU. Buy a dictionary. Look up the verb "to corrupt". In this discussion I am actually on your side of the barricade. Very uneasy feeling if you ask me.



Hope this clears up your anxiety.
But hey, are the imperatives necessary? Heavens, it's like a child's game now!




Yah, rather like posting in 18pt font eh? :wink:

anneteoh

Knight Gallant or Knight Errant?

Postby anneteoh » Wed, 25 Aug 2010 5:49 am

JR8 wrote:http://www.rcfp.org/newsitems/index.php?PHPSESSID=cfe7499e50277ee8e95739199a5327e1&op=search&ss=singapore&dt_st_m=&dt_st_y=&dt_end_m=&dt_end_y=&cat=-1

Some choice summations contained in the above.

Bedtime reading Anne? :wink:


Charming JR8... but thanks for your consideration. I read through the summaries. There are some obvious and subtle points, if you'd like to hear me out.
1. The 'filtered information' in the China report - sorry, the phrase's the gist as I'd just scanned for the info. An illustration of this happened, way back into the 80s when the Duke of Edinburgh made his usual gaffe to a British student "living like the slant eyes?" (He might be trying out a metaphor in schaisse taste). Most British reacted and called him a duff but strangely enough, the Chinese either missed out on that - he said it privately to a student - or chose to write him out. We were expecting the whole of China ina furore and wondered if he might get chucked out or sued. Which ever, the British press was agog with POVs till they came to the conclusion that the Chinese Govt censored.
I'd thought over that issue - to me there was no proof. I don't even think there's a phrase for that in Chinese but the Western assumption was that the Duke made a racist remark, They know his backside - anyway, some papers revealed that he was actually talking to his , err, his "illegitimate son." who had chosen to live in China. Rumours? Insults? It's all papparazi culture but I believe one needn't have to live this hype. Truth, respect and honour are taken seriously by the top echelons in Chinese society, unless they're liberals. Some of you might want to compare that to the state some liberal govts have done to their countries these days, ahem.

2. The what's his name - Linle (?)- professor at SG university and his 'implications' about suppressed freedom. Well, that's an odd case.
If he didn't make it explicit, there's no evidence that he's refering to SG. He might be refering to Malayisa, Thailand, Philippines or Indonesia etc. Unless SG , as an ASEAN member state is defending its honour. Anyway, what's the context of the libel - the summaries do not provide details.

3. The spying case - reminds me of the Russian spies in the UK and USA recentlty. They just deported them and exchanged their national spies who'd been sentenced. Human Bartering?

I will feel insulted if any old reporter's calling my country names etc and I will use the law in my country to fight it if it's easily accessible to me. Linle, in my opinion, shouldn't have run away. He should have stayed to make his stand if he's innocent. Afterall, he was not explicit but racism takes implications seriously, as you know of UK anti-racist laws. The point is, SG only wants PRs who love SG and agree with it.

You might think that's conditional, but look at the unconditional we have in the UK - do people come because they love the UK - the Queen, it's democracy, culture, lifestyle, language etc. ? I've worked with colleagues who had no respect for all these . They're only here for the money and a better life - and it's a mystery how freely they come to live here without feeling anything for the country or culture. These days - I 've been thinking, I hear more English spoken on the streets in SG than I would here in England.

Reading in between the lines, there is a self perpetuating myth about Asian negatives - tinpot dictators, corruption, repression , suppression and the whole lot that run gamut in Western tabloid press, as well as certain others. They act as a destabilising force, apart from the downright insults and SG is well aware of the kind of power the media try to garner. I mean, look at what's going round us - do we want to destroy what we've built up by abusing freedom without responsiility?

I used to think that the govt -run newsholdings in SG was a form of control but in this discussion here, it occurs to me that some countries, like SG, have a range of choice and do not have to follow established models. Now it's clear to me that everyone working in SG is a stakeholder of the SG Times. Never thought about this before, but it's the kind of brilliance we get from the SG govt team.

If you're complaining about that kind of enterprise, come and live in the UK and be taxed, Vated, CGTed and bleed. The country has unpayable debts of billions and the citizens pay; but any Tom, Dick or Harry and their large family can just enter the country, get social housing, welfare and NHS without having worked here or made any NI contributions. What price freedom? It 'd be great, and we'd take pride in the kindness of it all, but do we want a runaway economy, or wars or being taken for a ride, apart from the govt's Titanic hand into your pocket?

The concept of freedom is a thorny issue. Whist I feel reasonably free as a British citizen, I can appreciate the Chinese tradition I was brought up with. One can speak and discuss but it's always with deference to the superiority of those older than oneself. It simply boils down to respect for the older. If you listen to S'porean talk, you'll find that they don't use the accusatives unless they're uncouth.

Face is a sensitive issue in Asian culture, esp with the Chinese. I can understand why someone of LKY's position will not be name called and stereotyped. You might want to read a post in this thread where someone heard a rude S'porean and decided all S'poreans are rude. But that's about us - when one's a statesman, the domain has high stakes. Been there ; LKY, in my intuitive understanding of the issues you're objecting to is that the SPM acted not just for himself, but for SG. The money S'poreans make is reinvested with Temasek, Singapore Holdings etc and it's paid back to the people - e,g, bonuses, handouts when the economy's down etc. What corruption? Everone's a stakeholder. You do get your bonuese too, don't you, if you're working for the SG govt?

I'm glad that whatever SG does, it's transparent. It's the sly, unseen hand that manipulates with all smiles and does the opposite that's sick. I say this for I've worked with such people - there's nothing much one can do because the evidence is inconclusive. I'm not implying Linle in this example. But I end up shrugging and say, "Karma."

Much said. You know, I wish the world's a much nicer place.
Are you Knight gallant or Knight errant JR8?

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Re: Knight Gallant or Knight Errant?

Postby JR8 » Wed, 25 Aug 2010 7:44 am

anneteoh wrote:
JR8 wrote:http://www.rcfp.org/newsitems/index.php?PHPSESSID=cfe7499e50277ee8e95739199a5327e1&op=search&ss=singapore&dt_st_m=&dt_st_y=&dt_end_m=&dt_end_y=&cat=-1

Some choice summations contained in the above.

Bedtime reading Anne? :wink:


I'm glad that whatever SG does, it's transparent. It's the sly, unseen hand that manipulates with all smiles and does the opposite that's sick. I say this for I've worked with such people - there's nothing much one can do because the evidence is inconclusive. I'm not implying Linle in this example. But I end up shrugging and say, "Karma."

Much said. You know, I wish the world's a much nicer place.
Are you Knight gallant or Knight errant JR8?



I haven't time to fisk your whole message Anne. But really I do wonder at times if you live in some parallel world where the habits of the kleptrocrats in the land you left long ago are totally unknown to you, you have never heard of Christopher Lingle et al (and despite prompting, seem unable to spell his name). Why not, how can you not have heard of that landmark case and then suggest you're in-tune with SG?. 'Where are you'?


I'm not going to be led on into stating my views which seems to be what you invite, too risky, too dangerous - no chance. The sotong-sotong gubment have very long reach ah...

Funny you sound smart, and yet also incredibly naive lah. Is it a play, or might you be a bit batty do you think?

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 25 Aug 2010 7:48 am

p.s. I'm deffo no 'kin holds barred hard hitting batty, before anyone else takes offence 8-)

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Re: Knight Gallant or Knight Errant?

Postby QRM » Wed, 25 Aug 2010 9:53 am

JR8 wrote:Funny you sound smart, and yet also incredibly naive lah. Is it a play, or might you be a bit batty do you think?


For sure related to Kathy Kane.

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Re: Knight Gallant or Knight Errant?

Postby nakatago » Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:18 am

QRM wrote:
JR8 wrote:Funny you sound smart, and yet also incredibly naive lah. Is it a play, or might you be a bit batty do you think?


For sure related to Kathy Kane.


geek :P

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Re: Read carefully before you judge

Postby x9200 » Wed, 25 Aug 2010 3:09 pm

anneteoh wrote:But hey, are the imperatives necessary? Heavens, it's like a child's game now!
I never use emoticons but it mysteriously appeared in my last post - a Mr Cool smoking a cigar. Someone's trying to be funny at my expense. It had happened before.

Anne, no, they were not necessary. They never are. Equally unnecessary as some of your comments here or earlier, during previous discussions. You pretty often touch or even cross the line where, without a good reason, you start to be offensive. This is at least how I see it and this is my justification for being a bit more mean than usual.

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Re: Read carefully before you judge

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 25 Aug 2010 3:48 pm

anneteoh wrote:I never use emoticons but it mysteriously appeared in my last post - a Mr Cool smoking a cigar. Someone's trying to be funny at my expense. It had happened before. Perhaps one of the good mods can check this out - who had tempered with the internal engine of this technology?


Which post are you referring to?

I had a look and the only post I see where it would appear that you used that emoticon is in your reply to my lengthy post (the emoticon was mine and the end of my post) where you typed your last sentence inside of the quote of my message but before my strategically placed mr cool.

It would appear that you are seeing gremlins under every bed. :-|

anneteoh

Re: Read carefully before you judge

Postby anneteoh » Wed, 25 Aug 2010 4:09 pm

x9200 wrote:
anneteoh wrote:But hey, are the imperatives necessary? Heavens, it's like a child's game now!
I never use emoticons but it mysteriously appeared in my last post - a Mr Cool smoking a cigar. Someone's trying to be funny at my expense. It had happened before.

Anne, no, they were not necessary. They never are. Equally unnecessary as some of your comments here or earlier, during previous discussions. You pretty often touch or even cross the line where, without a good reason, you start to be offensive. This is at least how I see it and this is my justification for being a bit more mean than usual.


It takes a man to admit or apologise. There're excuses and excuses - but I remember the starting point. I never attack, but only to defend.
I apologise if I'm mistaken - and forget about it.

There's never any justification for meaness except as a direct POW to a provocation. Some people have deep vendettas and no ear for the POV of others - a general remark and not directed at you. Did you come across someone who said, 'the convoluted Asian mind '? It's in this thread -it might be best to exit here for such company endorsing this crude remark ( beacuse no one attacks such vileness) is best avoided.

This thread, for some, is not a platform for discussion or discussions to open up. I had believed it was possible to discuss. It's not. It's all finger pointing - ironic thread.

It is set up by some to undermine Asian success and when one comes against a wall, it's no point reasoning out with the bricks, is there? That's how I see it so far.
Last edited by anneteoh on Wed, 25 Aug 2010 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Read carefully before you judge

Postby poodlek » Wed, 25 Aug 2010 4:33 pm

nakatago wrote:
JR8 wrote:Don't know who you refer to, but could it be that it was not heard by his own judges, cough, I mean in his own country?


canadiastan. fearing that the spooks will misinterpret all this (like they seem wont to do) and the party van may pick me up, I'm sending you a pm for more details.


I'm intrigued...not sure either what you're referring to here.

anneteoh

Re: Knight Gallant or Knight Errant?

Postby anneteoh » Wed, 25 Aug 2010 5:29 pm

JR8 wrote:
anneteoh wrote:
JR8 wrote:http://www.rcfp.org/newsitems/index.php?PHPSESSID=cfe7499e50277ee8e95739199a5327e1&op=search&ss=singapore&dt_st_m=&dt_st_y=&dt_end_m=&dt_end_y=&cat=-1

Some choice summations contained in the above.

Bedtime reading Anne? :wink:


I'm glad that whatever SG does, it's transparent. It's the sly, unseen hand that manipulates with all smiles and does the opposite that's sick. I say this for I've worked with such people - there's nothing much one can do because the evidence is inconclusive. I'm not implying Linle in this example. But I end up shrugging and say, "Karma."

Much said. You know, I wish the world's a much nicer place.
Are you Knight gallant or Knight errant JR8?



I haven't time to fisk your whole message Anne. But really I do wonder at times if you live in some parallel world where the habits of the kleptrocrats in the land you left long ago are totally unknown to you, you have never heard of Christopher Lingle et al (and despite prompting, seem unable to spell his name). Why not, how can you not have heard of that landmark case and then suggest you're in-tune with SG?. 'Where are you'?


I'm not going to be led on into stating my views which seems to be what you invite, too risky, too dangerous - no chance. The sotong-sotong gubment have very long reach ah...

Funny you sound smart, and yet also incredibly naive lah. Is it a play, or might you be a bit batty do you think?


Look JR8, you needn't worry about my naivety or trust in the good of others. I happen to have been brought up in a very international world; and yours, a world of journalism. To me, you're perhaps a good guy who sympathise with the underdogs. Perhaps not yet.
Re - thanks for reminding me, Christopher Lingle, and I did say I wasn't quite sure of his name. That's because you're expecting too much from me, yes, I'm blaming for the first time. Yeah Yeah Yeah!
Anyway, with all due respect, he ran away when he should stand up and deliver his version. He'd be much more respected for that. As I said, the details are important to make a framework for a verdict. I had worked in SG and I had made critical POVs but without name calling and all that stuff Asians, or anyone else, find terribly offensive. I was encouraged , like S'poreans, to think out of a box. I find the system I was working in not only democratic in theory but in practice. But obviosuly if you start on a negative premise, you've thrown the baby out.
You can state your views without putting others down - if anyone were to call you ' a sotong -sotong Kleptocrat,' how woukd you feel ; and if you have the whole bloody gang going on and on about that - what would you do when you've had it up to your eyeballs? And more, so, if the nation depends on you to lead? And you threw in the sexist and ageist crap as well - hmm, I'm reviewing.
The Chinese are unforgiving on their leaders - but anyway, the hoi polloi just moan and complain for lack of imagination. Politicians - the able ones do a very difficult job - unfair criticisms made incriminate the leader, and therefore the country. Take the case of two damn good examples here in this thread - ''the convoluted Asian mind " and " the Chinese in SG are not like the respectful Chinese on the mainland ' - given from one example. Say that to any mainland Chinese and they'll laugh -I know why of course, but I'm not going to spill. Instead of thanking me for giving you the hint, you're calling me naive. Thank you very much - here have you read the satirical writing of Lu Zhun - The Story of Ah Q , set in early 20th century China?
I don't see it as a WOT time now, on 2nd thoughts, about putting my POV across. It's a worthy thing to defend what I personally feel is a great man's honour.
I visit SG every now and then - I have folks out there. I don't care to be in tune with every damn legal case in the world. except for things that's a crying shame like in Rhodesia - with brutality and forced repossessions - like the way Saddam was toppled.
But what can anyone do - what did the UN do?
The world can be a better planet.

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Postby QRM » Wed, 25 Aug 2010 6:37 pm

Two word, Fly and Handle

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:05 pm

Ok, well if I squint really hard I can make sense of about 10% of that.

Genius or batty I don't know, it can be a fine line. Unfortunately I don't have the time (or inclination) to try and find out.

TTFN

p.s. ever considered making a point in language and terms that an average person might understand? I.e. so they understand the point you are trying to convey? The point surely?.

anneteoh

Re: Read carefully before you judge

Postby anneteoh » Thu, 26 Aug 2010 3:10 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
anneteoh wrote:I never use emoticons but it mysteriously appeared in my last post - a Mr Cool smoking a cigar. Someone's trying to be funny at my expense. It had happened before. Perhaps one of the good mods can check this out - who had tempered with the internal engine of this technology?


Which post are you referring to?

I had a look and the only post I see where it would appear that you used that emoticon is in your reply to my lengthy post (the emoticon was mine and the end of my post) where you typed your last sentence inside of the quote of my message but before my strategically placed mr cool.

It would appear that you are seeing gremlins under every bed. :-|


So that was your gremlin.
Thanks for owning it.

anneteoh

Re: Read carefully before you judge

Postby anneteoh » Thu, 26 Aug 2010 3:26 am

Mad Scientist wrote:
anneteoh wrote:Strictly speaking, if I had any complaints about a person, I'd like to speak to him face to face. I don't encourage backstabbing or slandering.
It would do SG and the newspaper world a lot more good if you confront the politicians and interview them with a list of your grievances.
I really don't know what you're talking about otherwise.


anneteoh, I am Mad Scientist, albeit MAD in all aspect :lol:

At least I do not shoot at my own friendly forces. You really have to read X post before shooting him down. He was referring to me and you jumped the gun. Talk about someone with high degree of intellectual and with an astounding command of English and yet miss the target by a mile.

I am getting out of this as it is going off the tangent

:)


Chill out MAD. X's post popped up while I was editing mine - I read Ms ... and thought he was addressing me - My aplolgy sent, ok?
Call it friendly fire if you like, but really, we're all alive.
I'm trying to figure out the acronym.


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